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Thread: Judge sends cops and crazy dog to elementary classroom - guess what happened?

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    Judge sends cops and crazy dog to elementary classroom - guess what happened?

    An 11-year-old male student has been treated for "minor injuries" sustained following a bite from a Brazil Police Department K-9 officer at the Red Ribbon Awareness week kick-off event at the Clay County Courthouse Thursday, officials said.

    According to a report submitted by the K-9 officer's handler, Ray Walters, the young man was transported by ambulance to St. Vincent Clay Hospital for treatment following the incident.

    "It was an unfortunate accident," said Brazil Police Chief Clint McQueen. "Wish it hadn't happened like that but it did. We are trying to evaluate (the incident) to make sure nothing like this happens again."

    According to the report, the officer and his K-9 partner, Max, as well as another K-9 team were requested by Clay County Superior Court Judge J. Blaine Akers to carry out a simulated raid of a party with actors in place to help "educate the Clay County fifth-graders on drug awareness."


    http://www.thebraziltimes.com/story/2015940.html

    Not a US story .. but funny none the less. Notice they call the injury "minor" but if the kid's dog would have bitten the cop in the same manner I doubt they would use the same description.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    An 11-year-old male student has been treated for "minor injuries" sustained following a bite from a Brazil Police Department K-9 officer at the Red Ribbon Awareness week kick-off event at the Clay County Courthouse Thursday, officials said.

    According to a report submitted by the K-9 officer's handler, Ray Walters, the young man was transported by ambulance to St. Vincent Clay Hospital for treatment following the incident.

    "It was an unfortunate accident," said Brazil Police Chief Clint McQueen. "Wish it hadn't happened like that but it did. We are trying to evaluate (the incident) to make sure nothing like this happens again."

    According to the report, the officer and his K-9 partner, Max, as well as another K-9 team were requested by Clay County Superior Court Judge J. Blaine Akers to carry out a simulated raid of a party with actors in place to help "educate the Clay County fifth-graders on drug awareness."


    http://www.thebraziltimes.com/story/2015940.html

    Not a US story .. but funny none the less. Notice they call the injury "minor" but if the kid's dog would have bitten the cop in the same manner I doubt they would use the same description.
    It is a US story.... it's Brazil, IN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    It is a US story.... it's Brazil, IN.
    OMG, my mistake ... thx for the correction (I feel like the Dallas Cowboys)

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    I like how the Mother is perfectly fine with what happened, says she understands it was an accident and she has a tough kid. Even said she doesn't want the dog put down. Then read the comments, people are freaking out calling for the dog to be put down and the officer to be put on leave. If the parent is ok, why is everyone else in an outrage? The kid is ok and the parents were being rational. It's mandatory for someone to get freaked out about stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I like how the Mother is perfectly fine with what happened, says she understands it was an accident and she has a tough kid. Even said she doesn't want the dog put down. Then read the comments, people are freaking out calling for the dog to be put down and the officer to be put on leave. If the parent is ok, why is everyone else in an outrage? The kid is ok and the parents were being rational. It's mandatory for someone to get freaked out about stuff.
    Good question .... parents are OK ... why not ok then?

    Because the law protects the kid w/o regard to the parents viewpoint.

    The parents could be scared of police retaliation ...

    It required surgery .... so, the law may require criminal charges

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    So.....the kid made a furtive movement after being told to freeze. Got it, its the kid's fault. I'd be having my lawyer talk to the chief and that cop. A police dog is not a cop but a weapon, a lethal weapon. But, hey, the kid did not assume room temperature and it is only a couple of puncture wounds, no harm no foul.

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    Citizen compliance training is most effective when begun early in childhood, the earlier training is most effective. Compare the adult compliance training by the Department of Homeland Severity TSA 'FREEZE!' exercises. Failure to comply with government enforcer orders may be punishable by death.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Police brutality?

    I wonder if criminal charges will be filed on the dog.

    After all, if you kick a police dog, you'll get charged with assaulting an officer.

    If this is valid, shouldn't the reverse be true, as well?

    Attorney up, dog! "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you bark can and will be held against you...."

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    Regular Member BrianB's Avatar
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    The people that are calling for the dog to be put down are nuts in my opinion. The dog is just a weapon that is programmed to "go off" at certain stimulus. The dog doesn't know this is a "simulation".

    The humans are solely to blame in this equation. What idiot decided it would be a good idea to use a live weapon against real children for a simulated exercise?

    Feels like reckless endangerment charges are in order to me.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    No bad apples...
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    The people that are calling for the dog to be put down are nuts in my opinion. The dog is just a weapon that is programmed to "go off" at certain stimulus. The dog doesn't know this is a "simulation".

    The humans are solely to blame in this equation. What idiot decided it would be a good idea to use a live weapon against real children for a simulated exercise?

    Feels like reckless endangerment charges are in order to me.
    I agree but this doesn't apply to us mundanes, if one of our dogs nips at someone it there is a strong possibility our dogs would be forced to be put down.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Y'all are on the slippery slope of forcing equivalence between man and beast. Put one down like the beef are put down or explain the material difference. You don't see arch discussions like this in the dog-eating cultures.
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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    No one on the various places I've read this is talking about how the police PLANTED DRUGS ON THE KIDS (in a drug free school zone too!). What happens if they get pulled over and they run a drug dog... the kid will get a hit for drugs. CPS will probably get called on them for suspicion of using drugs near their kids since the kids had a positive hit fron the dog etc etc. ..

    I don't recall a law enforcement exemption to the no drugs on school property laws...

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    Last edited by Baked on Grease; 10-28-2013 at 11:06 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    [SIZE=1]....
    Not a US story ...
    Wonder what the citizens of Brazil, Indiana would say about that? http://www.thebraziltimes.com/

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Wonder what the citizens of Brazil, Indiana would say about that? stay safe.
    Would their apology be as prompt and gracious as Post #3?
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    The people that are calling for the dog to be put down are nuts in my opinion. The dog is just a weapon that is programmed to "go off" at certain stimulus. The dog doesn't know this is a "simulation".

    The humans are solely to blame in this equation. What idiot decided it would be a good idea to use a live weapon against real children for a simulated exercise?

    Feels like reckless endangerment charges are in order to me.
    If your pet dog bit someone it gets designated as a dangerous animal. Second bite and the courts order it put down.

    The police K-9 is supposed to be highly trained - in things like not biting without first being given a command to do so. Supposedly the national training standards are built around dogs being provoked and irritated to ensure that they do not "go off accidentally".

    The kid's mother may be all OK with things now, but Brazil appears to be a mere 10 or so miles From Terre Haute, and happens to be the county seat for Clay County. http://www.stats.indiana.edu/profile...panel_number=1 That beinng the case, there is surely at least one ambulance chaser that will be explaining the slam-dunk case to her.

    But I still am confused? Why are you posting "stupid cops and their stupid cop tricks" here when there are many web sites actually devoted to that topic?

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Brace's Avatar
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    I think the more horrifying thing is that they're engaging in these sorts of exercises in order to acclimate people to a police state. They're training dogs to attack anyone who moves and they're training kids to normalize them to illegal searches and the use of extreme force as a compliance tool.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brace View Post
    I think the more horrifying thing is that they're engaging in these sorts of exercises in order to acclimate people to a police state. They're training dogs to attack anyone who moves and they're training kids to normalize them to illegal searches and the use of extreme force as a compliance tool.
    Do you have a citation to support your statement?

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member BrianB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    But I still am confused? Why are you posting "stupid cops and their stupid cop tricks" here when there are many web sites actually devoted to that topic?
    I assume that even though your reply quoted my post you were directing this to the OP.

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    Regular Member Brace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Do you have a citation to support your statement?

    stay safe.
    It was an inference. Either they failed to train the dog effectively and biting was its natural inclination (which doesn't fit what I know about dogs), or they did train it effectively most likely under the pretense that a sudden movement during a search is dangerous and justifies force to achieve compliance (which does fit what I know about police). I could be wrong but in the absence of other information it seems like the most reasonable guess.
    Last edited by Brace; 10-28-2013 at 05:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brace View Post
    It was an inference. Either they failed to train the dog effectively and biting was its natural inclination (which doesn't fit what I know about dogs)
    Then you don't know much about dogs. Dogs are natural predators and focusing on and attacking things that make sudden movements is their instinct. That instinct has to be trained and molded into the desired behavior for search dogs - and that appears to have been somewhat lacking in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brace View Post
    or they did train it effectively most likely under the pretense that a sudden movement during a search is dangerous and justifies force to achieve compliance (which does fit what I know about police). I could be wrong but in the absence of other information it seems like the most reasonable guess.
    Even guard and attack dogs are trained to resist that instinct *until released by their handler* which doesn't seem to have been the case here. As far as I can tell, it is a case of poor training to suppress the attack reflex, not intentional training to reinforce it.
    Last edited by JustaShooter; 10-28-2013 at 06:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Do you have a citation to support your statement?

    stay safe.
    Read the OP again. So, you don't have to scroll all the way up to the top of the page.....

    http://www.thebraziltimes.com/story/2015940.html

    The dog is trained. If the dog is trained to not attack at "movement" then the dog would not attack.

    Yes, I have trained dogs.

    The story is quite clear in the facts of this incident.
    The cop failed to control the dog.
    The cop permitted the dog to be in close, too close, proximity to the child (11 years old by the way).
    The cop permitted a lethal weapon (the dog) to attack a defenseless child (did i mention that the kid is 11 years old).
    The cops requested that the kids be placed in a situation where a lethal weapon could "accidentally" go off.
    The school is also on the hook in my view, see the above.

    If that were my kid I'd be filing charges left and right.

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    Regular Member BrianB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The cop permitted a lethal weapon (the dog) to attack a defenseless child (did i mention that the kid is 11 years old).
    The cops requested that the kids be placed in a situation where a lethal weapon could "accidentally" go off.
    In my mind this is very similar to asking Mr. Kinney to threaten a locked-and-loaded ED-209 with a gun [warning Robocop gore and raucous audio at linked URL]. ED-209 doesn't know it's a simulation and is not infallible. These kids were asked to play the role of potential bad guy, and one of the kids was given a substance that is generally associated with bad guys (by the police anyway). Sure the dog really just thinks the smell of the substance means the kid has his ball (if you know how drug dogs are trained) but the dog also knows that bad guys may try to hurt him, and he's in bad guy mode.

    Bad plan all the way around. If I had an armed, autonomous weapon and directed it at some children, for a demonstration, and someone got hurt, I expect I'd get treated a lot differently.
    Last edited by BrianB; 10-29-2013 at 09:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    In my mind this is very similar to asking Mr. Kinney to threaten a locked-and-loaded ED-209 with a gun [warning Robocop gore and raucous audio at linked URL]. ED-209 doesn't know it's a simulation and is not infallible. These kids were asked to play the role of potential bad guy, and one of the kids was given a substance that is generally associated with bad guys (by the police anyway). Sure the dog really just thinks the smell of the substance means the kid has his ball (if you know how drug dogs are trained) but the dog also knows that bad guys may try to hurt him, and he's in bad guy mode.

    Bad plan all the way around. If I had an armed, autonomous weapon and directed it at some children, for a demonstration, and someone got hurt, I expect I'd get treated a lot differently.
    Your expectation does not match the indicated outcome.....unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Do you have a citation to support your statement?

    stay safe.
    I took the post as a conclusion based on the facts noted in this thread.

    I do think that the gov't is trying to acclimate people to unwarranted searches.

    Plus, if the cop thought the dog would bite if a kid moved, then he never should have performed the "demonstration" because he must know that 20 kids are not going to sit still ~ especially with a dog hovering about them. Ya cannot get 20 kids to sit still for any reason.

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