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Thread: Pamphlet from CCW Instructor - Spot any issues?

  1. #1
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    Pamphlet from CCW Instructor - Spot any issues?

    I just took a second look at the packet of information provided by the instructor for my CCW class and found this:

    "
    PLACES WHERE YOU CANNOT CARRY A CONCEALED WEAPON

    Schools - Colleges - Universities
    Churches - Other Places of Worship
    Hospitals
    Day Care Facilities
    Sports Arenas
    Stadiums that seat more than 2,500
    Bars - Taverns - Anywhere selling Alcoholic beverages > 50%
    Airports
    Courthouses or other Federal Buildings
    Banks or Loan Institutions
    Casinos
    Posted Areas
    Municipalities with ordinances against CCW
    College or University dorms or classrooms
    "
    I'd like to send him a correction letter, together with proper cites to Michigan Law. The errors that pop out at me are the prohibition against carrying concealed at Banks or Loan Institutions and in Municipalities with ordinances against CCW. I think those are wrong. Are there any other items on the list that are incorrect?

    The class barely covered Michigan law regarding the legal aspects of carrying.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    the only other thing i can see is that certain locations, like churches, are allowed to grant individuals permission to conceal on their property.
    eta, airports is not true either in the public areas. obviously you can't conceal past the checkpoints, but any area outside of that is OK.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 10-31-2013 at 11:42 AM.
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    Yes, I would not specify ANY locations in your literature or provide legal advice.

    Just saying .. we live in a very litigious environment ..

    Chk with a lawyer.

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    "Municipalities with ordinances against CCW" - Not correct due to preemption/MCL 123.1102 http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-123-1102

    Banks are covered under 750.234d but not 28.425o, so you need a CPL to carry but you can conceal or open carry.

    As for "posted areas", private businesses, that's business policy, if they find out you can be asked to leave, it's trespassing if you don't comply.
    Last edited by jfmi; 10-31-2013 at 01:55 PM.

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    You can CC in churches with permission - 28.425o

    Not stadiums. Entertainment facilities that seat more than 2500

    "Bars - Taverns - Anywhere selling Alcoholic beverages > 50%" - Not > 50%. Alcohol by the glass for consumption on the premises must be the PRIMARY source of income. 30% 25% 20% 15% 10%. 30% is the primary source - 28.425o

    Posted places are only trespassing and only if they can prove that you saw the sign or you refuse to leave

    The rest seem to have been caught by others already.

  6. #6
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Why didn't the instructor just put this, from MSP, in the pamphlet?

    Pistol Free Areas

    Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electo-muscular disruption technology on the following premises:Please refer to MCL 28.425o for the complete statutory text

    1. Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian
    2. Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
    3. Sports arena or stadium
    4. A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises
    5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials allow concealed weapons
    6. An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
    7. A hospital
    8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
    9. A Casino


    "Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 11-01-2013 at 12:56 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Post instructors name or it didn't happen....
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Post instructors name or it didn't happen....
    David Hansen - Gowen, Michigan

    I'm going to send the info that DrTodd suggested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    You can CC in churches with permission - 28.425o
    Would Jesus' permission be enough?


    Really, as shown in this thread, the OP should not dove into such legal issues ... just tell your "students" to look into the law for themselves and to routinely re-review laws and court decisions for changes.

    I could see a jury granting a $$$ award to a litigant who listened to you and you misspoke and the guy got arrested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Really, as shown in this thread, the OP should not dove into such legal issues ... just tell your "students" to look into the law for themselves and to routinely re-review laws and court decisions for changes.

    I could see a jury granting a $$$ award to a litigant who listened to you and you misspoke and the guy got arrested.
    First off, I think the jury granting $$$ is a bit of a stretch. "But he told me I could" is hardly a strong position. I'll agree that a responsible person should certainly look at the law themselves. Goes along with that "Never ask a LEO about the law," precisely because you can't depend on their answer.

    28.425j(1)(a)(iv) Firearms and the law, including civil liability issues and the use of deadly force. This portion shall be taught by an attorney or an individual trained in the use of deadly force.

    It certainly isn't very clear on "how much" the law must be covered. In my class there was a lot of talk about situations where you could use deadly force, but very little actual reading through the law. It was one part that I was disappointed with in my CCW class; I'd have liked to much more detail to be presented. Not necessarily for me, because I read through the law many times before I even took the class, but for the other poor shlubs in the class who likely didn't put for the effort I did.

    The other part I was disappointed in was the the former LEOs were very dismissive of OC when I brought it up. Basically a "don't do it, end of story" response. Whatever guys, sign my permission slip and let me out of here.
    Last edited by jeffrey-r; 11-06-2013 at 08:54 AM.

  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Would Jesus' permission be enough?


    Really, as shown in this thread, the OP should not dove into such legal issues ... just tell your "students" to look into the law for themselves and to routinely re-review laws and court decisions for changes.

    I could see a jury granting a $$$ award to a litigant who listened to you and you misspoke and the guy got arrested.
    I haven't looked that closely but I think he may have overstated the restrictions. It is more likely that someone would NOT carry when they legally could.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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