• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Pamphlet from CCW Instructor - Spot any issues?

OC4me

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
750
Location
Northwest Kent County, Michigan
I just took a second look at the packet of information provided by the instructor for my CCW class and found this:

"
PLACES WHERE YOU CANNOT CARRY A CONCEALED WEAPON

Schools - Colleges - Universities
Churches - Other Places of Worship
Hospitals
Day Care Facilities
Sports Arenas
Stadiums that seat more than 2,500
Bars - Taverns - Anywhere selling Alcoholic beverages > 50%
Airports
Courthouses or other Federal Buildings
Banks or Loan Institutions
Casinos
Posted Areas
Municipalities with ordinances against CCW
College or University dorms or classrooms
"
I'd like to send him a correction letter, together with proper cites to Michigan Law. The errors that pop out at me are the prohibition against carrying concealed at Banks or Loan Institutions and in Municipalities with ordinances against CCW. I think those are wrong. Are there any other items on the list that are incorrect?

The class barely covered Michigan law regarding the legal aspects of carrying.
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
the only other thing i can see is that certain locations, like churches, are allowed to grant individuals permission to conceal on their property.
eta, airports is not true either in the public areas. obviously you can't conceal past the checkpoints, but any area outside of that is OK.
 
Last edited:

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
Yes, I would not specify ANY locations in your literature or provide legal advice.

Just saying .. we live in a very litigious environment ..

Chk with a lawyer.
 

jfmi

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2013
Messages
16
Location
Sherwood, MI
"Municipalities with ordinances against CCW" - Not correct due to preemption/MCL 123.1102 http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(0l...g.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-123-1102

Banks are covered under 750.234d but not 28.425o, so you need a CPL to carry but you can conceal or open carry.

As for "posted areas", private businesses, that's business policy, if they find out you can be asked to leave, it's trespassing if you don't comply.
 
Last edited:

bigt8261

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
181
Location
Grand Rapids
You can CC in churches with permission - 28.425o

Not stadiums. Entertainment facilities that seat more than 2500

"Bars - Taverns - Anywhere selling Alcoholic beverages > 50%" - Not > 50%. Alcohol by the glass for consumption on the premises must be the PRIMARY source of income. 30% 25% 20% 15% 10%. 30% is the primary source - 28.425o

Posted places are only trespassing and only if they can prove that you saw the sign or you refuse to leave

The rest seem to have been caught by others already.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Why didn't the instructor just put this, from MSP, in the pamphlet?

Pistol Free Areas

Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electo-muscular disruption technology on the following premises:Please refer to MCL 28.425o for the complete statutory text

  1. Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian
  2. Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
  3. Sports arena or stadium
  4. A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises
  5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials allow concealed weapons
  6. An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
  7. A hospital
  8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
  9. A Casino

"Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above.
 
Last edited:

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
You can CC in churches with permission - 28.425o

Would Jesus' permission be enough?


Really, as shown in this thread, the OP should not dove into such legal issues ... just tell your "students" to look into the law for themselves and to routinely re-review laws and court decisions for changes.

I could see a jury granting a $$$ award to a litigant who listened to you and you misspoke and the guy got arrested.
 

jeffrey-r

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
110
Location
Warren, MI
Really, as shown in this thread, the OP should not dove into such legal issues ... just tell your "students" to look into the law for themselves and to routinely re-review laws and court decisions for changes.

I could see a jury granting a $$$ award to a litigant who listened to you and you misspoke and the guy got arrested.

First off, I think the jury granting $$$ is a bit of a stretch. "But he told me I could" is hardly a strong position. I'll agree that a responsible person should certainly look at the law themselves. Goes along with that "Never ask a LEO about the law," precisely because you can't depend on their answer.

28.425j(1)(a)(iv) Firearms and the law, including civil liability issues and the use of deadly force. This portion shall be taught by an attorney or an individual trained in the use of deadly force.

It certainly isn't very clear on "how much" the law must be covered. In my class there was a lot of talk about situations where you could use deadly force, but very little actual reading through the law. It was one part that I was disappointed with in my CCW class; I'd have liked to much more detail to be presented. Not necessarily for me, because I read through the law many times before I even took the class, but for the other poor shlubs in the class who likely didn't put for the effort I did.

The other part I was disappointed in was the the former LEOs were very dismissive of OC when I brought it up. Basically a "don't do it, end of story" response. Whatever guys, sign my permission slip and let me out of here.
 
Last edited:

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Would Jesus' permission be enough?


Really, as shown in this thread, the OP should not dove into such legal issues ... just tell your "students" to look into the law for themselves and to routinely re-review laws and court decisions for changes.

I could see a jury granting a $$$ award to a litigant who listened to you and you misspoke and the guy got arrested.

I haven't looked that closely but I think he may have overstated the restrictions. It is more likely that someone would NOT carry when they legally could.
 
Top