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Thread: Florida city bans guns for neighborhood watch volunteers.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Florida city bans guns for neighborhood watch volunteers.

    http://news.yahoo.com/florida-city-b...--finance.html

    I bet the criminals are jumping with joy. I still fail to see how the city has the authority to do this. I would resign from neighborhood watch and start my own group call neighborhood patrol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/florida-city-b...--finance.html

    I bet the criminals are jumping with joy. I still fail to see how the city has the authority to do this. I would resign from neighborhood watch and start my own group call neighborhood patrol.
    They don't, and it's actually illegal.

    The individuals responsible, regrdless if they are elected officials or the police chief, are subject to civil penalties and removal from office.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    The new rules, to be released at a community meeting on November 5 in Sanford, Florida, will state explicitly that residents acting under the authority of neighborhood watch may not carry a firearm or pursue someone they deem suspicious.
    What, pray tell, authority does a neighborhood watchman have over a private citizen? is there some kind of legal regulation on this......?
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    What, pray tell, authority does a neighborhood watchman have over a private citizen? is there some kind of legal regulation on this......?
    Pretty much the same a cop has over a citizen 0 , until you commit a crime.

    Of course the modern state and statist think authority come from top down.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Sory, d
    folks, but so far the answers given rate a "BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, Wrong!"

    The Neighborhood Watch is a corporate entity that has entered into an agreement with the City - generally through the PD - to do many things, such as the exchange of information, receiving training, and possibly receiving or being loaned equipment (flashlights, reflective vests, radios, etc.). Thus, the City and The Neighborhood Watch can mutually establish rules for participation, or the city can unilaterally establish rules and tell The Neighborhood Watch to abide by them or have support withdrawn.

    As there is no compulsion to join/participate in The Neighborhood Watch the laws cited/suggested do not apply.

    Set up your own Neighborhood Patrol and see how much cooperation you get from the PD. For some reason I have a feeling that they will not allow the upstart Neighborhood Patrol use their radio frequencies, and may take action against 9-1-1 calls that are not "emergency" emergencies. Do let me know if I have guessed wrongly on this.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Sory, d
    folks, but so far the answers given rate a "BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, Wrong!"

    The Neighborhood Watch is a corporate entity that has entered into an agreement with the City - generally through the PD - to do many things, such as the exchange of information, receiving training, and possibly receiving or being loaned equipment (flashlights, reflective vests, radios, etc.). Thus, the City and The Neighborhood Watch can mutually establish rules for participation, or the city can unilaterally establish rules and tell The Neighborhood Watch to abide by them or have support withdrawn.

    As there is no compulsion to join/participate in The Neighborhood Watch the laws cited/suggested do not apply.

    Set up your own Neighborhood Patrol and see how much cooperation you get from the PD. For some reason I have a feeling that they will not allow the upstart Neighborhood Patrol use their radio frequencies, and may take action against 9-1-1 calls that are not "emergency" emergencies. Do let me know if I have guessed wrongly on this.

    stay safe.
    You are mistaken here. The City/PD, by establishing any rules/regulations/administrative orders as they relate to firearms are clearly in violation of Chapter 790.33 of the Florida Statutes.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 10-31-2013 at 10:56 AM.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Sory, d
    folks, but so far the answers given rate a "BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, Wrong!"

    The Neighborhood Watch is a corporate entity that has entered into an agreement with the City - generally through the PD - to do many things, such as the exchange of information, receiving training, and possibly receiving or being loaned equipment (flashlights, reflective vests, radios, etc.). Thus, the City and The Neighborhood Watch can mutually establish rules for participation, or the city can unilaterally establish rules and tell The Neighborhood Watch to abide by them or have support withdrawn.

    As there is no compulsion to join/participate in The Neighborhood Watch the laws cited/suggested do not apply.

    Set up your own Neighborhood Patrol and see how much cooperation you get from the PD. For some reason I have a feeling that they will not allow the upstart Neighborhood Patrol use their radio frequencies, and may take action against 9-1-1 calls that are not "emergency" emergencies. Do let me know if I have guessed wrongly on this.

    stay safe.
    Maybe in Florida that's the case, I know Florida is supposedly big on having powerful HOAs and many gated communities with official employees.

    In WA Neighborhood watch is usually simply a group of neighbors approaching the police and asking to form one, usually the only thing the cops do is send a crime prevention officer to talk to the group of nieghbors and they get a phone tree written down and some briefing from the PD on what crime trends are... I've never heard of a NW here in the Pacific Northwest being a corporate entity with state sanctioned authority. nor is a NW here authorized to use a two way police radio on police frequencies, I think the FCC would have an issue with people not under the frequency license utilizing the public safety band for routine business anyway.... in fact even if an HOA up here hired security guards themselves as a "neighborhood watch" there is still no special rules since the State of WA doesn't license proprietary guards and such guards hired by the entity they're securing are not required to have any license or state sanctioned training...

    I bring this up because I was under the impression that NWs were not official entities due to how they're structured where I live, if it's different in Florida and NW actually have some kind of quasi police authority or state sanctioned powers then that changes my view entirely....

    to wondering why the state is handing out powers to private goons who are not accountable to the voting public....
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 10-31-2013 at 11:06 AM.
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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    What, pray tell, authority does a neighborhood watchman have over a private citizen? is there some kind of legal regulation on this......?
    A NW member has exactly the same authority as any other citizen does, so it really depends on your state law. As I understand it, in most states you can only detain (make a "citizens arrest") if you've witnessed the person actually commit a crime, and it usually has to be a felony. Again, depends on the state - for example, as I understand it, North Carolina doesn't allow for any "citizens arrests" but Colorado allows you to make a citizens arrest for any crime you personally witness.

    Personally, I'm going to operate in "good witness" mode and collect as much information as I can but I'm not going to intervene unless there is an immediate threat of severe bodily harm or death to someone, and maybe not even then if it doesn't involve me or a loved one.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    For those who are too lazy to look up the previously cited statute from Florida.
    790.33 Field of regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted.—

    (3) PROHIBITIONS; PENALTIES.—

    (a) Any person, county, agency, municipality, district, or other entity that violates the Legislature’s occupation of the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, as declared in subsection (1), by enacting or causing to be enforced any local ordinance or administrative rule or regulation impinging upon such exclusive occupation of the field shall be liable as set forth herein.

    (b) If any county, city, town, or other local government violates this section, the court shall declare the improper ordinance, regulation, or rule invalid and issue a permanent injunction against the local government prohibiting it from enforcing such ordinance, regulation, or rule. It is no defense that in enacting the ordinance, regulation, or rule the local government was acting in good faith or upon advice of counsel.

    (c) If the court determines that a violation was knowing and willful, the court shall assess a civil fine of up to $5,000 against the elected or appointed local government official or officials or administrative agency head under whose jurisdiction the violation occurred.

    http://www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2012/790.33
    I especially like (3)(c), nice touch FL elected vermin, nice touch.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    For those who are too lazy to look up the previously cited statute from Florida.I especially like (3)(c), nice touch FL elected vermin, nice touch.
    What I want to know is how can a county, city, town, or other local government can "accidentally" pass and implement a ordinance or regulation, and a judge then find that there was no willful or knowable attempt to violate the statute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    For those who are too lazy to look up the previously cited statute from Florida.I especially like (3)(c), nice touch FL elected vermin, nice touch.
    (e) is even better:
    (e) A knowing and willful violation of any provision of this section by a person acting in an official capacity for any entity enacting or causing to be enforced a local ordinance or administrative rule or regulation prohibited under paragraph (a) or otherwise under color of law shall be cause for termination of employment or contract or removal from office by the Governor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    ...I especially like (3)(c)...
    Yes, I often point to your statute as a model for what we need here. We have preemption, but it has no penalty clause and is violated with impunity by most county and city buildings and parks.
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    More criminal safe zones...got to love progress.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Yes, I often point to your statute as a model for what we need here. We have preemption, but it has no penalty clause and is violated with impunity by most county and city buildings and parks.
    then carry there, get cited and take the matter to court, then if they enforce the illegal provisions you go after them for civil rights violations.

    I don't like the wording of that statute at all, it gives the governor authority to remove a local official from office....... frankly how arragont is it for the state to give one state official the authority to override the will of the voters in that area? very very bad..... the state should have authority over localities but not to that degree. already a sheriff in Florida faced removal by the governor for destroying arrest records of what he thought was an unconstitutional arrest.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    then carry there, get cited and take the matter to court, then if they enforce the illegal provisions you go after them for civil rights violations.

    I don't like the wording of that statute at all, it gives the governor authority to remove a local official from office....... frankly how arragont is it for the state to give one state official the authority to override the will of the voters in that area? very very bad..... the state should have authority over localities but not to that degree. already a sheriff in Florida faced removal by the governor for destroying arrest records of what he thought was an unconstitutional arrest.
    already a sheriff in Florida faced removal by the governor for destroying arrest records of what he thought was an unconstitutional arrest.
    Properly so, and in full compliance with the Florida Constitution and Florida Statutes. Official Misconduct is a very serious charge. Sheriff Finch screwed up (in the facts are as reported) he, nor anyone else, may destroy public records. If he did not want folks to be arrested for CCW, then it would have been much simpler, and legal, to tell his deputies not to make any such arrests.

    The Governor has the duty to remove from office, any public official that has been arrested or convicted for certain offences. You also need to understand that all authority for local municipalities (even their existence) comes from the state. And the Governor is the head of the executive branch of the state. How else you you suggest criminals are removed from their elected positions?
    Last edited by notalawyer; 10-31-2013 at 02:17 PM.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Properly so, and in full compliance with the Florida Constitution and Florida Statutes. Official Misconduct is a very serious charge. Sheriff Finch screwed up (in the facts are as reported) he, nor anyone else, may destroy public records. If he did not want folks to be arrested for CCW, then it would have been much simpler, and legal, to tell his deputies not to make any such arrests.

    The Governor has the duty to remove from office, any public official that has been arrested or convicted for certain offences. You also need to understand that all authority for local municipalities (even their existence) comes from the state. And the Governor is the head of the executive branch of the state. How else you you suggest criminals are removed from their elected positions?
    Kicking and screaming as they are being dragged out by the hair of their head.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Properly so, and in full compliance with the Florida Constitution and Florida Statutes. Official Misconduct is a very serious charge. Sheriff Finch screwed up (in the facts are as reported) he, nor anyone else, may destroy public records. If he did not want folks to be arrested for CCW, then it would have been much simpler, and legal, to tell his deputies not to make any such arrests.

    The Governor has the duty to remove from office, any public official that has been arrested or convicted for certain offences. You also need to understand that all authority for local municipalities (even their existence) comes from the state. And the Governor is the head of the executive branch of the state. How else you you suggest criminals are removed from their elected positions?
    The governor is not the "state" the governor did not create the state in 6 days and rest on the 7th...

    the authority for a county or city is made by the legislature.

    as to your final question, the following methods are far preferable to a power hungry governor...

    >Recall elections
    >Criminal conviction BY JURY
    >removal by provision allowing city council to fire said official
    >Resignation pending above three

    I don't think a single official should have the authority to reverse the will of the voters.... the ruling class doesn't need to have supreme powers.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    ...I would resign from neighborhood watch and start my own group call neighborhood patrol.
    That is a great idea and highlights the stupidity of most prevention laws. They merely prevent folks from doing things the easy way. Those laws never prevent the behavior they are intended to prevent.

    On edit: There seems to be a serious question as to whether the city can even do this. Good. However, what would prevent them from making the prohibition on carry by members of neighborhood watch part of a contract with the group?
    Last edited by eye95; 10-31-2013 at 03:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    That is a great idea and highlights the stupidity of most prevention laws. They merely prevent folks from doing things the easy way. Those laws never prevent the behavior they are intended to prevent.

    On edit: There seems to be a serious question as to whether the city can even do this. Good. However, what would prevent them from making the prohibition on carry by members of neighborhood watch part of a contract with the group?
    The same law. They cannot make any regulation or administrative rules. This also applies to any contracts the enter into.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    The same law. They cannot make any regulation or administrative rules. This also applies to any contracts the[y] enter into.
    I think the bolded part requires a citation.


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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    The governor is not the "state" the governor did not create the state in 6 days and rest on the 7th...

    the authority for a county or city is made by the legislature.

    as to your final question, the following methods are far preferable to a power hungry governor...

    >Recall elections
    >Criminal conviction BY JURY
    >removal by provision allowing city council to fire said official
    >Resignation pending above three

    I don't think a single official should have the authority to reverse the will of the voters.... the ruling class doesn't need to have supreme powers.
    the authority for a county or city is made by the legislature.
    And this same Legislature (and the Florida Constitution) grants the Governor certain powers and responsibilities.
    In certain situations he has nearly unlimited power. Don't like it? Get the Legislature, or the people of Florida, to change it.

    >Recall elections
    Recall elections are extremely limited in Florida. Because of the Legislature.

    >Criminal conviction BY JURY
    This is already provided for in the powers granted to the Governor in addition to suspension due to Felony arrest. Because of the Florida Legislature.

    >removal by provision allowing city council to fire said official
    So you'd rather have the city council be able to fire an elected official?

    >Resignation pending above three
    So you rather wait for the criminal to resign rather than the Governor being proactive about it?
    Last edited by notalawyer; 10-31-2013 at 08:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I think the bolded part requires a citation.


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    790.33
    . . .
    (2) POLICY AND INTENT.—
    (a) It is the intent of this section to provide uniform firearms laws in the state; to declare all ordinances and regulations null and void which have been enacted by any jurisdictions other than state and federal, which regulate firearms, ammunition, or components thereof; to prohibit the enactment of any future ordinances or regulations relating to firearms, ammunition, or components thereof unless specifically authorized by this section or general law; and to require local jurisdictions to enforce state firearms laws.
    (b) It is further the intent of this section to deter and prevent the violation of this section and the violation of rights protected under the constitution and laws of this state related to firearms, ammunition, or components thereof, by the abuse of official authority that occurs when enactments are passed in violation of state law or under color of local or state authority.
    (3) PROHIBITIONS; PENALTIES.—
    (a) Any person, county, agency, municipality, district, or other entity that violates the Legislature’s occupation of the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, as declared in subsection (1), by enacting or causing to be enforced any local ordinance or administrative rule or regulation impinging upon such exclusive occupation of the field shall be liable as set forth herein.
    (b) If any county, city, town, or other local government violates this section, the court shall declare the improper ordinance, regulation, or rule invalid and issue a permanent injunction against the local government prohibiting it from enforcing such ordinance, regulation, or rule. It is no defense that in enacting the ordinance, regulation, or rule the local government was acting in good faith or upon advice of counsel.
    (c) If the court determines that a violation was knowing and willful, the court shall assess a civil fine of up to $5,000 against the elected or appointed local government official or officials or administrative agency head under whose jurisdiction the violation occurred.
    (d) Except as required by applicable law, public funds may not be used to defend or reimburse the unlawful conduct of any person found to have knowingly and willfully violated this section.
    (e) A knowing and willful violation of any provision of this section by a person acting in an official capacity for any entity enacting or causing to be enforced a local ordinance or administrative rule or regulation prohibited under paragraph (a) or otherwise under color of law shall be cause for termination of employment or contract or removal from office by the Governor.
    (f) A person or an organization whose membership is adversely affected by any ordinance, regulation, measure, directive, rule, enactment, order, or policy promulgated or caused to be enforced in violation of this section may file suit against any county, agency, municipality, district, or other entity in any court of this state having jurisdiction over any defendant to the suit for declaratory and injunctive relief and for actual damages, as limited herein, caused by the violation. A court shall award the prevailing plaintiff in any such suit:
    1. Reasonable attorney’s fees and costs in accordance with the laws of this state, including a contingency fee multiplier, as authorized by law; and
    2. The actual damages incurred, but not more than $100,000.
    Interest on the sums awarded pursuant to this subsection shall accrue at the legal rate from the date on which suit was filed.

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    Florida city bans guns for neighborhood watch volunteers.

    I don't buy it. A contract is not a regulation. It is an agreement entered into voluntarily by two or more parties that give and receive consideration, which could include an agreement not to participate in certain behaviors.

    For example, I have free speech. I can say that Obama is an AH. While I was under contract with the federal government, I was lawfully restricted from saying so while I was in uniform. Perfectly legal. Perfectly reasonable. I agreed not to participate in that behavior by signing a contract subjecting myself to the orders of the officers appointed over me and the orders of the POTUS.

    I should add that I would never sign such a contract under the current AH of the United States.


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    Last edited by eye95; 10-31-2013 at 08:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I don't buy it. A contract is not a regulation. It is an agreement entered into voluntarily by two or more parties that give and receive consideration, which could include an agreement not to participate in certain behaviors.

    For example, I have free speech. I can say that Obama is an AH. While I was under contract with the federal government, I was lawfully restricted from saying so while I was in uniform. Perfectly legal. Perfectly reasonable. I agreed not to participate in that behavior by signing a contract subjecting myself to the orders of the officers appointed over me and the orders of the POTUS.

    I should add that I would never sign such a contract under the current AH of the United States.


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    The city/PD would have to establish some procedure ('rule') mandating the inclusion of such language. Such 'rule' would be unlawful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    You are mistaken here. The City/PD, by establishing any rules/regulations/administrative orders as they relate to firearms are clearly in violation of Chapter 790.33 of the Florida Statutes.
    Good luck with that.

    It might hold if it was a rule/regulation/administrative order as it related to firearms that effected the public at large. You are attempting to say, in effect, that the pD cannot even establish internal policies regarding what, how, and when cops carry.

    And if, as postulated above, The Neighborhood Watch has a relationship with the PD, then 790.33 does not apply. If, OTOH, The Neighborhood Watch is just a bunch of Crackers wandering about and calling 9-1-1 or the non-emergency number to say something if they see something, then you might have a point.

    Good luck wuth that.

    stay safe.
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