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Thread: Va Supreme Court overturns Va Tech shooting verdict

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Va Supreme Court overturns Va Tech shooting verdict

    Virgina Tech has no duty to protect you and now Virginia Tech has no duty to warn you about others that may harm you.

    Oh, did I mention that Virginia Tech wants you incapable of defending yourself also?

    http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/st...9bb30f31a.html

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Virgina Tech has no duty to protect you and now Virginia Tech has no duty to warn you about others that may harm you.

    Oh, did I mention that Virginia Tech wants you incapable of defending yourself also?

    http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/st...9bb30f31a.html

    Forget the fish in a barrel, they have perfected the perfect storm in a bottle.
    Makes on-line or vocational education seem better and better, eh? It might be time for these "educational dinosaurs" to become extinct.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Do K-12 teachers/staff have a duty to protect the students under their supervision? Is there not a law in VA that holds a contrary view of the high court's opinion?

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    My kid is at a college with similar restrictions. I made it clear to the president of the college that I would hold her personally responsible. Personally responsible.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    To be clear, the court made the right call.

    Now if we could just get cops and lawmakers and institutions to figure out why.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    To be clear, the court made the right call.

    Now if we could just get cops and lawmakers and institutions to figure out why.
    In our system of ordered democracy the state has no obligation to provide security/defence/safety. The individual has a right to defend themselves (self defence). The problem is that when the state through law, regulation, policy or custom takes away the MEANS of EFFECTIVE self defence, the right is almost meaningless and the risk to the unarmed law abiding (including rule, policy, etc.) citizen increases significantly.

    This rights/responsibilities mismatch is fully illustrated when a mass shooting happens at a gun free zone.

    Good people put at risk by the state. Evil people provided soft targets by the state.

    It is alot like hunting at deer feed corn machines. If we can outlaw deer corn feeding/hunting stations, why can't we outlaw gun free zones?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Nap's rule which I've stated before:

    If you want to be safe from violent people, you have to be capable of and willing to be, more violent than they are.

    911 is a death sentence and the courts are there just to get in the way of tending to your own affairs.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    My kid is at a college with similar restrictions. I made it clear to the president of the college that I would hold her personally responsible. Personally responsible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    My kid is at a college with similar restrictions. I made it clear to the president of the college that I would hold her personally responsible. Personally responsible.
    Ok David what would you really do.
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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Nap's rule which I've stated before:

    If you want to be safe from violent people, you have to be capable of and willing to be, more violent than they are.

    911 is a death sentence and the courts are there just to get in the way of tending to your own affairs.
    You must have known my grandfather....
    I learned that lesson early.

    Reader Digest version:
    Got mugged when I was 9yrs while walking home from school (short walk), got home and told my Grandfather.
    Grandpa told me go back out and retrieve my items, "get your stuff or get robbed everyday .".


    Guess that money going into my children's college fund will be going to an out of VA college most likely UT as the law stands now.
    Last edited by Marco; 10-31-2013 at 02:44 PM.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Ok David what would you really do.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    My kid is at a college with similar restrictions. I made it clear to the president of the college that I would hold her personally responsible. Personally responsible.
    "Brave" talk without substance. Unless you are personally threatening her life or well-being in the event your "kid" is harmed, you have no recourse.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    "Brave" talk without substance. Unless you are personally threatening her life or well-being in the event your "kid" is harmed, you have no recourse.
    You know James, that brings up a very real question of what do you teach your kids as they leave for school. Thankfully, mine were all out by the time Tech happened, but we have parents of college age kids and some college students on the board.

    IMO SCCC has been their own worst enemy. Even if they can muster the votes for Campus carry, it isn't going to happen in the next 4 years unless Cuccinelli pulls a rabbit out of his hat.

    While it's not a true OC issue, it seems important enough to warrant serious discussion anyway.

    Don't look at me though. I don't have a clue. It's a tough question.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    You know James, that brings up a very real question of what do you teach your kids as they leave for school. Thankfully, mine were all out by the time Tech happened, but we have parents of college age kids and some college students on the board.

    IMO SCCC has been their own worst enemy. Even if they can muster the votes for Campus carry, it isn't going to happen in the next 4 years unless Cuccinelli pulls a rabbit out of his hat.

    While it's not a true OC issue, it seems important enough to warrant serious discussion anyway.

    Don't look at me though. I don't have a clue. It's a tough question.
    The problem is most of the people attending college have been brain washed since pre-school. They have been taught to trust the state and college admin and that guns are bad. It will be tough to convince them otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    You know James, that brings up a very real question of what do you teach your kids as they leave for school. Thankfully, mine were all out by the time Tech happened, but we have parents of college age kids and some college students on the board.

    IMO SCCC has been their own worst enemy. Even if they can muster the votes for Campus carry, it isn't going to happen in the next 4 years unless Cuccinelli pulls a rabbit out of his hat.

    While it's not a true OC issue, it seems important enough to warrant serious discussion anyway.

    Don't look at me though. I don't have a clue. It's a tough question.
    Peter, I don't have a good answer for that, either. I sent all three of my sons off to college with great expectations and trepidation.

    My great expectations were based on having successfully mentored them through 18 formative years and that I was sending them off to a relatively independent lifestyle. In my opinion, residential colleges -- or the military -- is like a "finishing" school for everything we have tried to endue our children with. That's where they have new freedoms to exercise and new individual responsibilities to be held accountable for.

    My trepidations were based on "kicking the birds out of the nest" to see if they could fly, releasing them from the protections of the family unit into a relatively unsupervised society, where experimenting with new phenomena could be very dangerous, even deadly, even if tried just once. Happily, all three made it through without any permanent damage and are enjoying successful, independent and productive lives.

    All of this was pre-VA Tech, but they were raised to be very aware of their surroundings and to use common sense and critical thinking skills to work their way out of situations. In today's world, I'm wondering what I would do differently in raising them, given the absurdity of "gun free zones" and the possibility of very real danger from mentally ill people with illegal access to firearms.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    So let's see - SCOTUS has ruled 5 different times that "the state" has no duty or obligation to protect any individual, and that the police power extends towards "society" as a sociological concept only. VASC agrees with SCOTUS mostly because they have no other choice based on both SCOTUS rulings and case law specific to Va.

    OCforME - in loco parentis has pretty much been dead for decades. There are specific situations when a school administrator (teacher, other staff, the system as a whole) knew of a specific situation concerning a specific student that had not responded positively (been fixed) by previous interventions. Best example is a school bully who has repeatedly been reported as bullying one specific student in spite of suspensions, transfers to different classrooms, and refusing (repeated) requests to have the bullying student transferred to another school in order to stop the behavior because all lesser intervention attempts have failed. In that case there might be some responsibility on the part of the school.

    When the former daughter went off to kollidge she was reminded that she was on her own and pretty much left with improvised weapons as her only tools. The one bit of advice I gave her about dealing with a rapid multiple murder situation* (at school, at the mall, anywhere) was that if she could not find hard cover that allowed her to get away, she was to use bounding soft cover (people fattter than her) to get away.

    stay safe.

    * IMHO "mass murders" are what happen when a killer goes on their rampage during a specific part of the church service.
    Last edited by skidmark; 10-31-2013 at 03:41 PM. Reason: typo
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    My kid is at a college with similar restrictions. I made it clear to the president of the college that I would hold her personally responsible. Personally responsible.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-cPWheNyaA

    You know which part is meant for you.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    The problem is most of the people attending college have been brain washed since pre-school. They have been taught to trust the state and college admin and that guns are bad. It will be tough to convince them otherwise.
    Doc, I understand your comment and the "brainwashing" power of the public school system. My responsibility as a parent was to counter-act as much of that propaganda as possible all through their school years, but that takes dedicated involvement in working with one's school-age children and providing points and counterpoints to the "official" dogma. This not only gave them a different point of view, it enhanced their critical thinking skills and prepared them to think about the content of their lessons and to form their own opinions.

    As far as "guns" were concerned, they learned early on that a firearm was not a toy, but rather something to respect for its power to destroy, maim or kill. All three of my sons became proficient pistol and rifle shooters at an early age, and I never had any problems with "curiosity" or surreptitious access to any of the firearms in the home.

    My basic point is this: We as parents are obligated to provide educational opportunities for our children, either through public, private or home schooling, but we remain primarily responsible for their education. That means we must interact with them to understand what they are being taught and to provide additional or contrary insights into the subject matter. Unfortunately, too many parents just "send their kids to school" and have no idea what they are being taught ... a very dangerous situation. By sending them off to school, we must not give up the primary responsibility for the quality of their education, else we will someday be very unpleasantly surprised at "how they turned out."
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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Doc, I understand your comment and the "brainwashing" power of the public school system. My responsibility as a parent was to counter-act as much of that propaganda as possible all through their school years, but that takes dedicated involvement in working with one's school-age children and providing points and counterpoints to the "official" dogma. This not only gave them a different point of view, it enhanced their critical thinking skills and prepared them to think about the content of their lessons and to form their own opinions.

    As far as "guns" were concerned, they learned early on that a firearm was not a toy, but rather something to respect for its power to destroy, maim or kill. All three of my sons became proficient pistol and rifle shooters at an early age, and I never had any problems with "curiosity" or surreptitious access to any of the firearms in the home.

    My basic point is this: We as parents are obligated to provide educational opportunities for our children, either through public, private or home schooling, but we remain primarily responsible for their education. That means we must interact with them to understand what they are being taught and to provide additional or contrary insights into the subject matter. Unfortunately, too many parents just "send their kids to school" and have no idea what they are being taught ... a very dangerous situation. By sending them off to school, we must not give up the primary responsibility for the quality of their education, else we will someday be very unpleasantly surprised at "how they turned out."
    You and me are in total agreement and my children also think for themselves, and are college graduates. Both my boys own firearms and respect them and have taken safety classes and know how to handle them. They also don't blindly believe everything they are told and think for themselves.

    The problem is the majority of the kids in college are not like our kids.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    OCforME - in loco parentis has pretty much been dead for decades.
    Well, there ya go. Then it follows that any school policy that is used to "protect" the kids is now null and void. Try this, tell a school that you do not have to sign-in to get your kid whenever you desire. Just walk into the class and take your kid with you. Who would like to bet that the school will be doing all sorts of protecting then.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Virgina Tech has no duty to protect you and now Virginia Tech has no duty to warn you about others that may harm you.

    Oh, did I mention that Virginia Tech wants you incapable of defending yourself also?

    http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/st...9bb30f31a.html

    Forget the fish in a barrel, they have perfected the perfect storm in a bottle.
    I expected this opinion, and it is correct as a matter of law. What we should do know is hammer Haas and Goddard with the truth, whether they like it or not.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Ok David what would you really do.
    1) He could point a finger at her.

    2 )He could point a finger at her and speak in a stern tone. (Be careful with this one, strange consequences a la "A Ferry Tale" are possible )

    3) He could write a strongly worded letter.

    4) If it is a public college/university in Virginia he could send them to FOIA hell.

    5) He could walk around with a sign that warned about the dangers of gun free zones.

    6) He could walk around with an openly carried firearm and a sign that warned about the dangers of gun free zones
    Last edited by Thundar; 10-31-2013 at 06:28 PM.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Nap's rule which I've stated before:

    If you want to be safe from violent people, you have to be capable of and willing to be, more violent than they are.

    911 is a death sentence and the courts are there just to get in the way of tending to your own affairs.
    Something that our fine feathered friends on the left are and have been incapable of learning or understanding, this is a universal truth.
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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Doc, I understand your comment and the "brainwashing" power of the public school system. My responsibility as a parent was to counter-act as much of that propaganda as possible all through their school years, but that takes dedicated involvement in working with one's school-age children and providing points and counterpoints to the "official" dogma. This not only gave them a different point of view, it enhanced their critical thinking skills and prepared them to think about the content of their lessons and to form their own opinions.

    As far as "guns" were concerned, they learned early on that a firearm was not a toy, but rather something to respect for its power to destroy, maim or kill. All three of my sons became proficient pistol and rifle shooters at an early age, and I never had any problems with "curiosity" or surreptitious access to any of the firearms in the home.

    My basic point is this: We as parents are obligated to provide educational opportunities for our children, either through public, private or home schooling, but we remain primarily responsible for their education. That means we must interact with them to understand what they are being taught and to provide additional or contrary insights into the subject matter. Unfortunately, too many parents just "send their kids to school" and have no idea what they are being taught ... a very dangerous situation. By sending them off to school, we must not give up the primary responsibility for the quality of their education, else we will someday be very unpleasantly surprised at "how they turned out."

    We have chosen the home schooling approach...cannot bring ourselves to trust the state (or even a private) school to be that involved in raising our children.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    The problem is the majority of the kids in college are not like our kids.
    I'm (still) at Virginia Tech, and in my major (EE) it would be a stretch to say that the majority are anti-gun. Sure, there are loads of foreign nationals who tend to be utterly ignorant about guns one way or the other, but I get complimented on my XD cap pretty much daily. My #1 source of amusement in this regard is hearing kids talk about their shiny new permission slips (which of course I am elitist about not possessing ).

    While there certainly are disciplines (and even whole universities) where progressivism dominates, it's my view that the "99% of professors and college students are progressive statists" meme was intentionally created and promulgated by a few academics for the purpose of associating (in their minds, at least) "progressivism" with intelligence and education.

    For this reason, it's also my view that the worst thing we can do is just let them have this as a new Truth. We should aim to ensure their establishments always have a healthy mix of ideas – meaning lots of pro-gun students.
    Last edited by marshaul; 11-02-2013 at 10:37 PM.

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