Ut denial board

devildogdiesel0311 · Nov 2, 2013

I was just denied my Ut CCW. I have a CCW from Mn, Im active duty, and have only 1 foul up on my record thanks to America going soft. I was found guilty at a special court martial for hazing because i dead legged a new marine for telling our CO to f*ck himself. 1 dead leg got me a special court martial and a simple assault. So im wondering if i have a chance at going before the board and coming out with a win. That's the only blemish on an other wise flawless criminal/military record..........any thoughts???

Much appreciated in advance,

Hanson

davidmcbeth · Nov 2, 2013

http://le.utah.gov/code/TITLE53/htm/53_05_070400.htm

53-5-704. Bureau duties -- Permit to carry concealed firearm -- Certification for concealed firearms instructor -- Requirements for issuance -- Violation -- Denial, suspension, or revocation -- Appeal procedure.

(1) (a) The bureau shall issue a permit to carry a concealed firearm for lawful self defense to an applicant who is 21 years of age or older within 60 days after receiving an application, unless the bureau finds proof that the applicant does not meet the qualifications set forth in Subsection (2).
(b) The permit is valid throughout the state for five years, without restriction, except as otherwise provided by Section 53-5-710.
(c) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to a person issued a permit under Subsection (1)(a).
(d) Subsection (4)(a) does not apply to a nonresident:
(i) active duty service member, who present to the bureau orders requiring the active duty service member to report for duty in this state; or
(ii) an active duty service member's spouse, stationed with the active duty service member, who presents to the bureau the active duty service member's orders requiring the service member to report for duty in this state.
(2) (a) The bureau may deny, suspend, or revoke a concealed firearm permit if the applicant or permit holder:
(i) has been or is convicted of a felony;
(ii) has been or is convicted of a crime of violence;
(iii) has been or is convicted of an offense involving the use of alcohol;
(iv) has been or is convicted of an offense involving the unlawful use of narcotics or other controlled substances;
(v) has been or is convicted of an offense involving moral turpitude;
(vi) has been or is convicted of an offense involving domestic violence;
(vii) has been or is adjudicated by a state or federal court as mentally incompetent, unless the adjudication has been withdrawn or reversed; and
(viii) is not qualified to purchase and possess a firearm pursuant to Section 76-10-503 and federal law.
(b) In determining whether an applicant or permit holder meets the qualifications set forth in Subsection (2)(a), the bureau shall consider mitigating circumstances.

I did a google scholar search buy came up with only 1 case and it had nothing to do with your denial.

But google scholar only covers appellate and supreme court decisions .. there may be a slew of lower court and administrative cases to guide you.

It looks like the denial is a "may" deny due to your criminal records. Trying to minimize the seriousness of the conviction is never a good idea. Clearly you turned down an Article 15 thinking that it was nothing that they would court martial you for and was wrong.

The law seems clear enough .. it is within the authority of the body to issue or deny your permit. Unless you can find some case law saying that your crime is not a reason not to issue, you have problems as you have a finding not in your favor right now.

You could include the argument that you have the right to possess so you should be able to bear (otherwise its only 1/2 of the 2nd amendment you can use). I would certainly include this as a legal argument. To preserve the issue at least.

Now if the issuing body thinks that they must deny then this would show that they did not exercise discretion at all ... and this would be a violation of your due process rights under common law. The process should be fair at least.

There is an appeal process. You may take that route if you wish.

You could always re-apply..I do not see a limit to the # of applications over time that you could file.

If you are looking for a magic bullet ~ there isn't one.

JoeSparky · Nov 2, 2013

Utah does have a "repentance clause" if you'll let me use that phrase. For many convictions, depending upon how long ago the crime/violation occurred they will issue a permit. Give UTAH BCI a call and talk to them directly. I have heard from many that they will be helpful and courteous if presented with courtesy.

BTW, your Special Courts Martial was not a result of America going soft, but rather because per your own words on this forum you committed an assault upon a fellow marine. Not jumping down your throat about it but I believe we are a Country with great liberty (or should be) and Responsibility comes as a price of this Liberty.

Be fully honest with BCI and you may yet get your permit.

davidmcbeth · Nov 2, 2013

JoeSparky said:
BTW, your Special Courts Martial was not a result of America going soft, but rather because per your own words on this forum you committed an assault upon a fellow marine. Not jumping down your throat about it but I believe we are a Country with great liberty (or should be) and Responsibility comes as a price of this Liberty.

Your defense Marine? "America's going soft!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A

devildogdiesel0311 · Nov 4, 2013

davidmcbeth said:
http://le.utah.gov/code/TITLE53/htm/53_05_070400.htm

53-5-704. Bureau duties -- Permit to carry concealed firearm -- Certification for concealed firearms instructor -- Requirements for issuance -- Violation -- Denial, suspension, or revocation -- Appeal procedure.

(1) (a) The bureau shall issue a permit to carry a concealed firearm for lawful self defense to an applicant who is 21 years of age or older within 60 days after receiving an application, unless the bureau finds proof that the applicant does not meet the qualifications set forth in Subsection (2).
(b) The permit is valid throughout the state for five years, without restriction, except as otherwise provided by Section 53-5-710.
(c) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to a person issued a permit under Subsection (1)(a).
(d) Subsection (4)(a) does not apply to a nonresident:
(i) active duty service member, who present to the bureau orders requiring the active duty service member to report for duty in this state; or
(ii) an active duty service member's spouse, stationed with the active duty service member, who presents to the bureau the active duty service member's orders requiring the service member to report for duty in this state.
(2) (a) The bureau may deny, suspend, or revoke a concealed firearm permit if the applicant or permit holder:
(i) has been or is convicted of a felony;
(ii) has been or is convicted of a crime of violence;
(iii) has been or is convicted of an offense involving the use of alcohol;
(iv) has been or is convicted of an offense involving the unlawful use of narcotics or other controlled substances;
(v) has been or is convicted of an offense involving moral turpitude;
(vi) has been or is convicted of an offense involving domestic violence;
(vii) has been or is adjudicated by a state or federal court as mentally incompetent, unless the adjudication has been withdrawn or reversed; and
(viii) is not qualified to purchase and possess a firearm pursuant to Section 76-10-503 and federal law.
(b) In determining whether an applicant or permit holder meets the qualifications set forth in Subsection (2)(a), the bureau shall consider mitigating circumstances.

I did a google scholar search buy came up with only 1 case and it had nothing to do with your denial.

But google scholar only covers appellate and supreme court decisions .. there may be a slew of lower court and administrative cases to guide you.

It looks like the denial is a "may" deny due to your criminal records. Trying to minimize the seriousness of the conviction is never a good idea. Clearly you turned down an Article 15 thinking that it was nothing that they would court martial you for and was wrong.

The law seems clear enough .. it is within the authority of the body to issue or deny your permit. Unless you can find some case law saying that your crime is not a reason not to issue, you have problems as you have a finding not in your favor right now.

You could include the argument that you have the right to possess so you should be able to bear (otherwise its only 1/2 of the 2nd amendment you can use). I would certainly include this as a legal argument. To preserve the issue at least.

Now if the issuing body thinks that they must deny then this would show that they did not exercise discretion at all ... and this would be a violation of your due process rights under common law. The process should be fair at least.

There is an appeal process. You may take that route if you wish.

You could always re-apply..I do not see a limit to the # of applications over time that you could file.

If you are looking for a magic bullet ~ there isn't one.

I was only offered a SCM, the Colonel who was my judge, talked to my civilian attorney "off the record" and said this is the dumbest case ive ever tried.

any how it doesn't matter truthfully what anyone on here believes im giving you information and asking for you opinions on the conceal carry not your personal opinions on my decisions. You dont like what you read complain to yourself, or write in a journal otherwise i dont really need or want to read it.

thank you and god bless.

davidmcbeth · Nov 4, 2013

devildogdiesel0311 said:
I was only offered a SCM, the Colonel who was my judge, talked to my civilian attorney "off the record" and said this is the dumbest case ive ever tried.

any how it doesn't matter truthfully what anyone on here believes im giving you information and asking for you opinions on the conceal carry not your personal opinions on my decisions. You dont like what you read complain to yourself, or write in a journal otherwise i dont really need or want to read it.

thank you and god bless.

Odd, usually one is given the opportunity for a Art. 15. I never said you lied about anything, just tried to minimize the effect of your conviction (stupid or not).

So, what's your plan?

MAC702 · Nov 4, 2013

devildogdiesel0311 said:
I was just denied my Ut CCW. I have a CCW from Mn, Im active duty, and have only 1 foul up on my record thanks to America going soft. I was found guilty at a special court martial for hazing because i dead legged a new marine for telling our CO to f*ck himself...

A verbal disrespect from a new Marine deserved a "dead legging?" I had to look that up: smashing his leg severely enough to cause numbness. Is that a common response to where you shouldn't have been disciplined for it? Was he hospitalized for it?

That said, as mentioned, UT BCI is extremely good at answering your questions and working with you if you qualify enough for the gray area of their discretion. The most critical part is that you put the incident on the initial application. If you didn't, and it came up in their background check, it is much harder to convince them to use that discretion.

PavePusher · Nov 5, 2013

MAC702 said:
A verbal disrespect from a new Marine deserved a "dead legging?" I had to look that up: smashing his leg severely enough to cause numbness. Is that a common response to where you shouldn't have been disciplined for it? Was he hospitalized for it?

That said, as mentioned, UT BCI is extremely good at answering your questions and working with you if you qualify enough for the gray area of their discretion. The most critical part is that you put the incident on the initial application. If you didn't, and it came up in their background check, it is much harder to convince them to use that discretion.

In my experience (23 years USAF), a "dead-leg" is usually accomplished by smacking the nerve cluster on the outboard side of the thigh, usually about dead center of the leg. It causes temporary pain and then numbness of the leg and discommodes ones' gait for a few minutes, can leave a bruise and minor accompanying pain for a few days. As a SNCO, I'd see it as perfectly approriate immediate remedial action for being severely disrespectful to ones' Commanding Officer without cause - depending on the circumstances. If he/she is trying really hard to get everyone in their command killed to no purpose.... that would possibly be a valid excuse. However... there are times/ways of applying such direct discipline so as not to attract the wrath of the P.C. Mafia....

davidmcbeth · Nov 5, 2013

PavePusher said:
In my experience (23 years USAF), a "dead-leg" is usually accomplished by smacking the nerve cluster on the outboard side of the thigh, usually about dead center of the leg. It causes temporary pain and then numbness of the leg and discommodes ones' gait for a few minutes, can leave a bruise and minor accompanying pain for a few days. As a SNCO, I'd see it as perfectly approriate immediate remedial action for being severely disrespectful to ones' Commanding Officer without cause - depending on the circumstances. If he/she is trying really hard to get everyone in their command killed to no purpose.... that would possibly be a valid excuse. However... there are times/ways of applying such direct discipline so as not to attract the wrath of the P.C. Mafia....

Have you ever had anyone bad mouth the CO to a great degree?

devildogdiesel0311 · Nov 6, 2013

PavePusher said:
In my experience (23 years USAF), a "dead-leg" is usually accomplished by smacking the nerve cluster on the outboard side of the thigh, usually about dead center of the leg. It causes temporary pain and then numbness of the leg and discommodes ones' gait for a few minutes, can leave a bruise and minor accompanying pain for a few days. As a SNCO, I'd see it as perfectly approriate immediate remedial action for being severely disrespectful to ones' Commanding Officer without cause - depending on the circumstances. If he/she is trying really hard to get everyone in their command killed to no purpose.... that would possibly be a valid excuse. However... there are times/ways of applying such direct discipline so as not to attract the wrath of the P.C. Mafia....

Lets put it this way i was given multiple counts of MCO 1700.28A for instance one citation was for pulling sheets off the bed (because the sheets had been pinned and glued to the bed so he didnt have to make it every morning), another was for throwing trash around the room (because he had 3 full bags of trash he was too lazy to take out so he had stored in his locker for field day inspection). 1700.28a is a hazing charge, no the dead leg did not cause bruising, it did however hurt the feelings of young man who was tough enough to call out everyone in his direct chain of command. But when things were thrown back in his face he called mom, who called his states representatives office, who then called congress, who then s**t down everyones neck until it came down all the way to my platoon.

"Hazing" can even be verbal which is why drill instructors are no longer allowed to curse or other wise verbally insult you and if they do it can be a 1700.28a charge of verbal assault which is a Class A misdemeanor. Again at recruit training drill instructors can no longer curse or verbally insult, that goes without saying no hitting, spitting, pushing, shoving, water hazing, or telling future marines they cant use the head.

(edit-my room mates brother finished recruit training recently and was telling me that at mcrdsd the drill instructors had to greet the recruits with a smile at the chow hall but could not follow them in because complaints had been made that recruits were not allowed to have sweets or ice cream. So drill instructors can no longer monitor food intake as well.)

Again doesn't matter anyways because the Marine who i "assaulted" popped for marijuana and heroin use in Afghanistan. But is getting out honorably because he "failed to adapt".

Now in regards to the original post I have letters of recommendations from my 2 full bird Colonels, my Battalion Commander, my Sgt. Major, my Co, 1st Sgt, Plt Co and Plt Sgt. As well as my Local Sherrifs department, and ceo of a tactical company i work for on the weekends in California. Im hoping that will eb enough to prove that daily actions and my character are above reproach.

Gil223 · Nov 6, 2013

devildogdiesel0311 said:
Lets put it this way i was given multiple counts of MCO 1700.28A for instance one citation was for pulling sheets off the bed (because the sheets had been pinned and glued to the bed so he didnt have to make it every morning), another was for throwing trash around the room (because he had 3 full bags of trash he was too lazy to take out so he had stored in his locker for field day inspection). 1700.28a is a hazing charge, no the dead leg did not cause bruising, it did however hurt the feelings of young man who was tough enough to call out everyone in his direct chain of command. But when things were thrown back in his face he called mom, who called his states representatives office, who then called congress, who then s**t down everyones neck until it came down all the way to my platoon.

"Hazing" can even be verbal which is why drill instructors are no longer allowed to curse or other wise verbally insult you and if they do it can be a 1700.28a charge of verbal assault which is a Class A misdemeanor. Again at recruit training drill instructors can no longer curse or verbally insult, that goes without saying no hitting, spitting, pushing, shoving, water hazing, or telling future marines they cant use the head.

(edit-my room mates brother finished recruit training recently and was telling me that at mcrdsd the drill instructors had to greet the recruits with a smile at the chow hall but could not follow them in because complaints had been made that recruits were not allowed to have sweets or ice cream. So drill instructors can no longer monitor food intake as well.)

Again doesn't matter anyways because the Marine who i "assaulted" popped for marijuana and heroin use in Afghanistan. But is getting out honorably because he "failed to adapt".

Now in regards to the original post I have letters of recommendations from my 2 full bird Colonels, my Battalion Commander, my Sgt. Major, my Co, 1st Sgt, Plt Co and Plt Sgt. As well as my Local Sherrifs department, and ceo of a tactical company i work for on the weekends in California. Im hoping that will eb enough to prove that daily actions and my character are above reproach.

Your difficulty seems to be more with the UCMJ and MCOs, than with the state of Utah. Utah did not arbitrarily refuse to issue a CFP... Utah did their due diligence - by performing the required background check - and discovered you had a disqualifying assault conviction. Nonetheless, I wish you good luck in your battle. :banana: Pax...

davidmcbeth · Nov 6, 2013

devildogdiesel0311 said:
Now in regards to the original post I have letters of recommendations from my 2 full bird Colonels, my Battalion Commander, my Sgt. Major, my Co, 1st Sgt, Plt Co and Plt Sgt. As well as my Local Sherrifs department, and ceo of a tactical company i work for on the weekends in California. Im hoping that will eb enough to prove that daily actions and my character are above reproach.

I assume that you did not include these with you first application?

Go ahead and re-file. As I stated before ... its not a "shall deny"... its a "may deny"

MKEgal · Nov 16, 2013

If you included the conviction in your original application and they denied you, it would be worth sending the boatload of recommendations you now have, telling how long it's been since the crime (which they already know), how sorry you were for committing the crime (which you don't seem to be), and that you've learned your lesson (debatable) and will only use appropriate force in the future.

The problem is that they're authorizing (or not) someone to carry a loaded &/or concealed firearm in public, a handy-dandy way to do lots of damage in a hurry, and letting someone with an anger or self-control issue carry just doesn't seem like a very smart idea.
Hence the law which gives BCI the power to deny a license to people with a conviction for a violent crime.

The other thing you need to remember is that to appeal to the board you must appear before the board.
I don't know about applying again.
You'd have to take the class again to get another course completion certificate stamped in red.
But that would probably be cheaper than applying in person.

I got my revocation overturned by sending an email, but I just pointed out that they had not applied UT law correctly, so there really wasn't anything for the board to decide. The people who handle instructor issues just sent me an "oops, please ignore our first letter" letter.

devildogdiesel0311 said:
doesn't matter anyways [sic] because the Marine who [sic] i "assaulted" popped for marijuana and heroin use in Afghanistan. But is getting out honorably because he "failed to adapt".

Him being a druggie (and gaming the system for a honorable discharge despite that) has nothing to do with the fact that you were convicted of hitting him unlawfully.

Im hoping that will eb enough to prove that daily actions and my character are above reproach.

Good luck with that.

jpm84092 · Nov 19, 2013

Hello Hanson,

I am not going to judge you, but let's face it, things got out of hand. How much of it is "you" is open to interpretation.

There are a host of unanswered questions. You tell us that you are active duty in the Marine Corps. Is your current chain of command willing to go to bat for you and write letters of recommendation. Are they willing to attest to your reasonableness, and your commitment to the rule of law, and your coolness under pressure? Perhaps, are they willing to go on record saying your charges were chicken-sh*t?

Did BCI cite a reason for their denial?

Where are you located (would appearing in person before the Appeals Board be a financial burden?) Being active duty, you could be anywhere, but travel would require leave.

The Board of Appeals consists of at least 1) one member of law enforcement, b) one member of the shooting sports community, and c) one "civilian". The decision of the Board is final and binding. If you decide to appeal your denial, plaster yourself with paper. Arm yourself with the trial transcripts and any NCIS / NIS investigative reports. If possible get the presiding judge to put into writing that it was a "dumb case". Prepare a narrative of the events with any supporting documentation you can find. Still, as reasonable as the Board can be, they MUST abide by UT law, so you need to make a case that you were not convicted of a "crime of violence". A Utah Gun Law attorney, Mitch Vilos comes to mind, might be able to help you make an argument that you are indeed eligible for a UT permit. He will be up to date on all precedents, both judicial and extra-judicial.

One question looms very large. If MN granted you a permit with your background, why not Utah. Did the event in question happen after the granting of your MN permit? (You can carry in UT on your - unexpired - MN permit.)

In any event, best of luck.

DO NOT re-apply. BCI will have a record of your denial and reapplication will just taint them against you. Your next, and only step, is to appeal the decision.

davidmcbeth · Nov 20, 2013

JPM makes an interesting observation .... speaking of res judicata issue that may arise from a re-application. Something to consider I guess or check out the law in respect to this subject matter.

I don't think the OP is doing anything right now ...

devildogdiesel0311 · Nov 28, 2013

jpm84092 said:
Hello Hanson,

I am not going to judge you, but let's face it, things got out of hand. How much of it is "you" is open to interpretation.

There are a host of unanswered questions. You tell us that you are active duty in the Marine Corps. Is your current chain of command willing to go to bat for you and write letters of recommendation. Are they willing to attest to your reasonableness, and your commitment to the rule of law, and your coolness under pressure? Perhaps, are they willing to go on record saying your charges were chicken-sh*t?

Did BCI cite a reason for their denial?

Where are you located (would appearing in person before the Appeals Board be a financial burden?) Being active duty, you could be anywhere, but travel would require leave.

The Board of Appeals consists of at least 1) one member of law enforcement, b) one member of the shooting sports community, and c) one "civilian". The decision of the Board is final and binding. If you decide to appeal your denial, plaster yourself with paper. Arm yourself with the trial transcripts and any NCIS / NIS investigative reports. If possible get the presiding judge to put into writing that it was a "dumb case". Prepare a narrative of the events with any supporting documentation you can find. Still, as reasonable as the Board can be, they MUST abide by UT law, so you need to make a case that you were not convicted of a "crime of violence". A Utah Gun Law attorney, Mitch Vilos comes to mind, might be able to help you make an argument that you are indeed eligible for a UT permit. He will be up to date on all precedents, both judicial and extra-judicial.

One question looms very large. If MN granted you a permit with your background, why not Utah. Did the event in question happen after the granting of your MN permit? (You can carry in UT on your - unexpired - MN permit.)

In any event, best of luck.

DO NOT re-apply. BCI will have a record of your denial and reapplication will just taint them against you. Your next, and only step, is to appeal the decision.

Im not sure how you got my last name nor do i want to know. I received my PTC after the event I sent in all my necessary paper work from the proceedings, i had SJA send a letter along with multiple personnel from my COC when the incident happened. I spoke with a NRA representative from the Life of Duty, and spoke with an attorney who's a friend of the family. All in all i think im set up for success, if i'm denied then i'm denied nothing i can say or do and that's life.

I wasn't here to make a splash in the pool it just angered me that on one instance in my life, one thing kept me away. Im not violent, i'm married with a son, im a responsible active citizen of multiple communities. I guess whats on a few pieces of paper can sometimes tarnish who you are. But we all make mistakes and i made mine along with a few others which in return provides wisdom.

Thank you all for your help and i'll be sure to update whenever possible.

P.S. A big reason why i applied was upon separating from the USMC next year i will attend Texas A&M and finish my Bachelors for Petroleum Engineering and hopefully go back to work for Halliburton in UT. Before i joined i drilled near Vernal for almost 2 years and the scenery and people in Utah are beautiful.

Happy Thanksgiving and God Bless you and your household.

MAC702 · Nov 28, 2013

devildogdiesel0311 said:
Im not sure how you got my last name nor do i want to know...

You signed your OP.

Mr Birdman · Nov 28, 2013

court martial

MAC702 said:
You signed your OP.

If you were found guilty in a court martial, that means you are a convicted felon. I do not know how you got a gun to begin with. Any way a convicted felon gets a gun is a illegal way. :shocker:

MAC702 · Nov 28, 2013

Mr Birdman said:
If you were found guilty in a court martial, that means you are a convicted felon. I do not know how you got a gun to begin with. Any way a convicted felon gets a gun is a illegal way. :shocker:

Do you have a cite that shows all court-martial convictions are felonies? Because that does not make sense at all.

devildogdiesel0311 · Nov 28, 2013

Mr Birdman said:
If you were found guilty in a court martial, that means you are a convicted felon. I do not know how you got a gun to begin with. Any way a convicted felon gets a gun is a illegal way. :shocker:

Summary court martial does not have any effect on your record and is treated as a non judicial punishment only more severe

Special Court Martial means you are being tried for a misdemeanor offense.

General Court Martial is for those who have committed a felony offense.

I hope you do better research before posting your ignorance online.

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