I've never had a WaffleHouse manager ask to see my license when driving through LA, AR, KY, TN, WV or VA - maybe next time I should swing through MO omw to VA.
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A rather strange request at Denny's
- Thread starter Superlite27
- Start date
I've never had a WaffleHouse manager ask to see my license when driving through LA, AR, KY, TN, WV or VA - maybe next time I should swing through MO omw to VA.
davidmcbeth
Banned
I hardly think that the person had the RIGHT to demand to see a permit ... perhaps you were meaning to convey something else?
No, I actually believe private property owners have the right to be stupid and have absurd policies for conditions of entry so as to lose customers.
Maverick9
Regular Member
See, that's the problem with the OP assenting to this Manager's whim and presenting a 'permit'. It makes the Manager think that it's his 'right'. It's not. He has an ABILITY to ask for it but it's far from a right. The carrier also has the ability to leave and take his business elsewhere OR, he can just tell the manager to go fly a kite that he has no standing to see any permits if he wants to keep his business.
At the very most the carrier can say 'yes I have a permit, but I have no requirement to tell you that much less show it to you'. The manager can take the LAC at his word and take his money or be a jerk and make the guy leave. I think the majority, once told the carrier is not doing anything illegal will relent and keep their business.
The LAST thing we want to do is to train these people to think they have any rights which allow them to be bullies. And that's just what they're being. If they were REALLY afraid they would NOT be confronting people unarmed who are carrying.
davidmcbeth
Banned
They allowed entry and then took the order then asked for a permit. They can certainly ask people to leave but have zero right to demand to see a permit.
davidmcbeth
Banned
+1 spot on ...
JoeSparky
Centurion
Only if you want any warrantee coverage from the manufacturer!
They have the right to ASK for anything on their property. They also deserve to be made to look like the idiots they are for doing it.
I would NOT have shown it to them. THAT is the part that rewarded their behavior. A permit is not required by state law in Missouri for OC, but OC is not protected by state preemption there, so there may be a local ordinance about it. I'm no expert in MO law.
We have a gun store here that has a sign that says no firearms are to be carried in their store unless you have a permit to conceal. I, and others, refuse to shop there, even though most of us have permits. But I don't question their right to have a policy.
I would NOT have shown it to them. THAT is the part that rewarded their behavior. A permit is not required by state law in Missouri for OC, but OC is not protected by state preemption there, so there may be a local ordinance about it. I'm no expert in MO law.
We have a gun store here that has a sign that says no firearms are to be carried in their store unless you have a permit to conceal. I, and others, refuse to shop there, even though most of us have permits. But I don't question their right to have a policy.
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mspgunner
Regular Member
I do keep complete records of who I buy from, who I sell too. A copy of their drivers license or CCW and a bill of sale we voth sign. I do it for my protection.
But NO, you do NOT have to keep any records inn Missouri.You as an individual can sell to some one 18 years of age or older.
Again, there is no State or Federal "Gun Rregistration" in Missouri when you act as an individual, not an FFL.
fjpro2a
Regular Member
Edfucation is the answer
Education comes in many forms. The ultimate result at Denny's was positive, even though the steps getting there are argued by members of this forum. Whether it is small baby steps or an occasional large step, I will take it. Don't assume the manager knows exactly what she is supposed to do. If it is a continual learning process, as it should be, for those of us on this forum, think what it must be for those who are not well-schooled on the legality of open carrying. Superlite27's encounter moved our cause forward, and he probably had a satisfying breakfast.
Education comes in many forms. The ultimate result at Denny's was positive, even though the steps getting there are argued by members of this forum. Whether it is small baby steps or an occasional large step, I will take it. Don't assume the manager knows exactly what she is supposed to do. If it is a continual learning process, as it should be, for those of us on this forum, think what it must be for those who are not well-schooled on the legality of open carrying. Superlite27's encounter moved our cause forward, and he probably had a satisfying breakfast.
Superlite27
Regular Member
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: When a person straps on a firearm and openly carries, they become a vry visible representative of the entire firearms community (whether they wish to, or not).
This is why I always implore fellow carriers to NOT retort with those witty, smart-aleck, jibes when the general.citizenry makes innocent, but often ignorant, inquiries.
"Is that a real gun?"
"Where's your badge?"
"What department do you work for?"
I'm sure everyone can think up some downright HILARIOUS replies to these questions that we're very likely to encounter, sooner or later.
However, I always thought our goal was to educate the public about the legality of open carry while striving to make it a generally accepted practice.
This is kind of hard to do when alienating people by making them feel stupid, mouthing off with wise comments, and generally being a jerk. Leaving inquiring people to walk away thinking, "Wow. People who carry guns are huge ***holes" is entirely counterproductive to the goal we're striving for.
What I experienced yesterday was a great opportunity. Lot's of people were watching on a busy Sunday morning. Why would I want to throw a hissy-fit, belittle the manager, act like an insulted prima-donna in front of the clientele, and storm out in affront (giving the manager exactly what she wanted: my absence)?
No, I simply related this event to note her odd request. I did illustrate the insult to all that were watching by informing her that I wasn't even required to show it to law enforcement unless I was suspected of a crime. Then I asked her if I was suspected of a crime as if she were law enforcement. This was as close to "smarmy" as I wished to go with several people at various tables watching closely.
I'll let them draw their own conclusions about the appropriateness of my behavior, and make their own determinations about who was the good guy, and who the bad. I refused to give them any excuse to say to the manager, "That guy was a real jerk. I'm glad you made him leave." after I went out the door.
Besides, I was hungry. Why the hell should I have to leave and drive somewhere else over principle?
This is why I always implore fellow carriers to NOT retort with those witty, smart-aleck, jibes when the general.citizenry makes innocent, but often ignorant, inquiries.
"Is that a real gun?"
"Where's your badge?"
"What department do you work for?"
I'm sure everyone can think up some downright HILARIOUS replies to these questions that we're very likely to encounter, sooner or later.
However, I always thought our goal was to educate the public about the legality of open carry while striving to make it a generally accepted practice.
This is kind of hard to do when alienating people by making them feel stupid, mouthing off with wise comments, and generally being a jerk. Leaving inquiring people to walk away thinking, "Wow. People who carry guns are huge ***holes" is entirely counterproductive to the goal we're striving for.
What I experienced yesterday was a great opportunity. Lot's of people were watching on a busy Sunday morning. Why would I want to throw a hissy-fit, belittle the manager, act like an insulted prima-donna in front of the clientele, and storm out in affront (giving the manager exactly what she wanted: my absence)?
No, I simply related this event to note her odd request. I did illustrate the insult to all that were watching by informing her that I wasn't even required to show it to law enforcement unless I was suspected of a crime. Then I asked her if I was suspected of a crime as if she were law enforcement. This was as close to "smarmy" as I wished to go with several people at various tables watching closely.
I'll let them draw their own conclusions about the appropriateness of my behavior, and make their own determinations about who was the good guy, and who the bad. I refused to give them any excuse to say to the manager, "That guy was a real jerk. I'm glad you made him leave." after I went out the door.
Besides, I was hungry. Why the hell should I have to leave and drive somewhere else over principle?
Maverick9
Regular Member
Why are you still confusing a RIGHT with an ability? I don't think a patron should be snarky about it, just firm.
Maverick9
Regular Member
You're going WAY overboard. The suggestion was to say, perhaps, 'Yes I have a permit; no you may not see it because you are not a LEO'.
Why you think you need to go all the way to hissy fit is puzzling. You should NOT be teaching restaurant owners that they have a right to identify you or see your papers.
Only just now am I confused. Does a private property representative not have the right to set conditions of entry that do not violate civil rights?
I must add that I did not intend to say we should be rude. I was thinking of a longer process that was respectful and polite but still did not hand over a permit that wasn't even required by law. Eventually, the manager would learn that she was being an idiot, out of ignorance. I see that I completely left that out of my hastened responses, and I apologize.
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Maverick9
Regular Member
"Rights" of setting conditions of entry does not include a right to demand to see identification, permits or papers.
notalawyer
Regular Member
Quite to the contrary, they can demand strip searches, DNA testing, mental evaluations or anything else (that does not violate the law) they desire.
Superlite27
Regular Member
As the person in charge of the private property, the manager holds all the keys. "I don't like the shirt you're wearing. Will you leave my private business?" is perfectly lawful. As the manager, she really doesn't need a reason at all. If I would have refused to present ID, what do you think the probable outcome would have been?
I'll tell you: I would have given her EXACTLY what she needed. An excuse to make me leave. TA-DA! No more OC'er. Everyone watching probably would have said, "Hooray!" What a great manager protecting her establishment from that uptight gun nut who refused her reasonable request.".
And I would have driven home hungry.
I guess that would have been a good thing according to you.
Maverick9
Regular Member
You don't know that. You're being hyperbolic. A request to see permits and papers from someone who is obviously a LAC is not reasonable. You taught her she can be confrontational for no good reason.
Agreed on your first point. An alternative to deal with it would be to deny the existence of such a permit. You weren't doing anything for which a permit was required.
Worst case is yes, you are asked to leave. It can still be done respectfully.
It is just as likely that someone witnessing it would think she was an unreasonable idiot after seeing the nice, polite armed man leaving upon request. Especially if it was the only place to eat, you have to obviously do what is best for you.
Even though you complied with her request, you can still write a letter and help alleviate her ignorance of the law and tactics.
Yes. Yes, they do. You also have the right of refusal. They then have the right to deny admission.