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Thread: Don't OC so that you may continue to OC!

  1. #1
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Don't OC so that you may continue to OC!

    Just like most of you, I have been asked the same questions over and over when I OC. The most common questions for me have been "are you a cop?", "is open carry legal?", "do you need a permit?", "why do you open carry?", etc. These questions are pretty easy to answer and it doesn't take much time or effort to give a good solid answer. But every now and then I run into a question or comment from a person that leaves me scratching my head looking for a good answer.

    Recently, I was told by a friend that I shouldn't OC. When I asked him why, he responded "because a lot of states that were OC friendly have passed laws that makes OC illegal now because they have had issues with people OC'ing." Of course my response was "so I shouldn't do something that is legal so that I may continue to legally do it?" He agreed that I had a valid point, but pointed out that the fact remains that some states (or cities and counties that do not have state preemption) have changed these laws due to a sheeple population, a bad LEO encounter, an OC'er that truly did something stupid or a million other reasons that are unknown to me.

    The only defense that I could think of was to say "a person has to carry responsibly and respectfully" whether they OC or CC. He then asked what my definition of "responsibly and respectfully" is. I said "well, if a 16 year old dies from a gunshot wound, for whatever reason, and the town holds a candlelight vigil in the middle of town square, that probably isn't a good time to OC." I felt that doing so may be viewed as disrespectful. But then I got to thinking more and more about what I had just said. What if the 16 year old didn't die from a gunshot wound, but rather in a car accident? Would it be disrespectful to drive my car to the candlelight vigil? I don't think so.

    Plus, within a week after the Colorado movie theater shooting, the wife and I went to a movie theater and I OC'd then. Not to prove a point, cause alarm or be viewed as an insensitive *****, but because I would have OC'd that night regardless if a mass shooting in a movie theater had just happened or not. I'm not going to be defenseless just to spare someones feelings.

    He also made the comment that he feels like a lot of people that are trying to exercise and promote a right are going about it the wrong way, and they are doing more harm than good. I asked what he meant and he said "like when people want to remind others that we have gun rights and 10 or 15 people show up unannounced on the courthouse lawn with AR's, AK's, handguns and shotguns, it freaks people out." I said "maybe this is where the responsible part of carrying would come in." He asked what I meant and I responded "maybe instead of just showing up on the courthouse lawn, you could advertise that a rally will be taking place at such and such location, on such and such day, at such and such time." That way people wouldn't be in the dark as to what is going on and you may have 100 people participating instead of 10 or 15.

    But then I got to thinking more about that. Let's say I did organize a pro-2A rally and I ran ads in the local newspaper, I used social media, I ran radio ads and placed billboards and banners all over town. What if I did get 10,000 gun owners to stand on the courthouse lawn with me while a million more people stood in the street cheering us on? What would my message to these people be? Probably something like this, "welcome everyone. I'm glad to see so many people showed up. We have advertised this event for a month now so everyone knew we would be here today and so no one would be freaked out. The point of this rally is to remind people that we have gun rights, and if you see a person legally carrying a gun in the future, even if it is a group of people like us, and they didn't advertise like we did, you shouldn't be afraid of them and you should accept them.........because people that don't advertise these events are just as harmless as we are,,,,,and that's why we advertised this event instead of just showing up,,,,so to prove a point...whatever that point may be "

    I'm sure at this point someone would scream "if they are just as harmless then why did you organize this event the way you did?" And then another would scream "you are a effing hypocrite, why don't you practice what you preach?"

    I'm pretty convinced that there is no right or wrong answer to any of these situations that I mentioned, but only a best answer. Problem is, I have no idea what the best answer would be.
    Last edited by self preservation; 11-07-2013 at 10:44 AM.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Sir Diealotz's Avatar
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    I approve this message
    Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.

    Thomas Paine

  3. #3
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    I would only add that one is under no obligation to answer any questions posed by people in respect to their OC. I recommend one not answer any questions at all.

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    What state has made OC illegal when it was already legal?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  5. #5
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    What state has made OC illegal when it was already legal?
    California.......
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    California.......
    derp

    So 1 state. That sure seems like a lot...
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  7. #7
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    derp

    So 1 state. That sure seems like a lot...
    I think it's more cities and counties that have done this and not so much a state itself.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  8. #8
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Kalifornia.......
    Fixed it
    Last edited by F350; 11-07-2013 at 02:42 PM.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I think it's more cities and counties that have done this and not so much a state itself.
    Any specifics? I only remember (after being reminded) CA doing this.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  10. #10
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    s p: Excellent response to a dumb question. When you can communicate that well, please continue to answer questions from the public, the "advice" from another poster in this thread notwithstanding.

    Thank you.

  11. #11
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    PLEASE do not derail this thread, and go off tangent with this response. It is just to make a point, not to start thread about drugs and sexuality.

    Gay rights would not be advancing if they stayed in the "closet", our guns need to come out too.
    CO, and WA would not have legal marijuana if the partakers stayed in the closet.
    Again, I'm just using these examples to make a point. If you don't approve of these lifestyles fine, just leave those thoughts in you head. Again, we can't educate the public if they think guns don't exist anymore. They need to see that someone can go about their daily life while being armed. I carry a gun for the same reason I wear a seat-belt, my safety when an event takes place beyond my control.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
    http://nwfood.shelfreliance.com

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    Regular Member Griz's Avatar
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    There have been several St. Louis county municipalities that have made OC illegal recently (within past 2-3 years). I think Maplewood is one. Others in the Missouri forum know better which ones have. Olivette may have been another.

    Missouri is a non-preemptive OC state.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    PLEASE do not derail this thread, and go off tangent with this response. It is just to make a point, not to start thread about drugs and sexuality.

    Gay rights would not be advancing if they stayed in the "closet", our guns need to come out too.
    CO, and WA would not have legal marijuana if the partakers stayed in the closet.
    Again, I'm just using these examples to make a point. If you don't approve of these lifestyles fine, just leave those thoughts in you head. Again, we can't educate the public if they think guns don't exist anymore. They need to see that someone can go about their daily life while being armed. I carry a gun for the same reason I wear a seat-belt, my safety when an event takes place beyond my control.
    +1

    Prohibition of alcohol would have never ended if everybody stayed in the closet.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  14. #14
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    California.......
    So what was the reason Kalifornia banned OC - just in certain counties. To cut down on gun violence from non-gang members? To keep ordinary citizens from protecting themselves? After the Watts riots to disarm the poor-folk against the po-po? Not sure if OC is banned in Fresno or OC, but when visiting relatives there have never seen anyone OC.
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
    -Thomas Hobbes 1651

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    So what was the reason Kalifornia banned OC - just in certain counties. To cut down on gun violence from non-gang members? To keep ordinary citizens from protecting themselves? After the Watts riots to disarm the poor-folk against the po-po? Not sure if OC is banned in Fresno or OC, but when visiting relatives there have never seen anyone OC.
    They had Unloaded OC, and still have OC for certain activities my friend lives half the year there and OC's all the time in the woods.

    They banned it because they hate seeing people exercise their rights.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    They had Unloaded OC, and still have OC for certain activities my friend lives half the year there and OC's all the time in the woods.

    They banned it because they hate seeing people exercise their rights.
    They hate what they consider to be a "conservative" right being exercised. There is no shortage of gays exercising their rights in public, yet when I was there, I didn't see anyone complaining saying that gays were using "in your face" or offensive tactics to make a political statement.

  17. #17
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Getting back to my original post. Any thoughts from you veteran OC'ers on my conundrum? I realize my OP is rather lengthy and may seem foolish to some, but these are questions that I can't answer and that bothers me.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Getting back to my original post. Any thoughts from you veteran OC'ers on my conundrum? I realize my OP is rather lengthy and may seem foolish to some, but these are questions that I can't answer and that bothers me.
    I'm not a veteran OC'er, but I will attempt to throw an opinion or "answer" to keep the thread and thoughts going.

    I think your initial thought about carrying responsibly and respectfully is spot on. Should you be able to carry wherever you want when ever you want? Sure. Does that mean you HAVE to? No.

    If you decide NOT to carry someplace, then it shouldn't automatically be chalked up as a "loss of liberty" or "oppression". It can be just chalked up to using some tact.

    For example, your going to a relatives house. It's a young kids birthday party. There will be lots of activities that your kid may want you to do and a million little kids running around. Start the thought process.

    Are you in danger by being there? I know i know I know, you can get attacked anywhere. But realistically, unless your going to plug a 5 year old for stealing your cake, your probably pretty safe.

    Are you going to be making a political statement that will BENEFIT the 2a comm.? Maybe not, depending on the crowd of people. You can still bring up the topic in discussion with the other adults. Especially those non gun people. Bring it up over a beer (since your not armed). So you can still push the movement forward but with tact. You just don't need to put the full size 1911 in their face at the table. Sometimes too much too soon can turn a on the fence person to a hell no person. Especially if they get "excited" and you get "excited in response".

    So again, CAN you carry in this example, yea. Should you? Maybe not. Up to you. Ever seen the video of the guy getting shot at a party because as he was hugging another person, a small child came over and pulled his gun out from his OC holster? Guy didn't make it. More recently saw a similar video of a guy at a wedding. Same thing, kids and people around and bam gun goes off.
    Last edited by Primus; 11-08-2013 at 08:06 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I'm not a veteran OC'er, but I will attempt to throw an opinion or "answer" to keep the thread and thoughts going.

    I think your initial thought about carrying responsibly and respectfully is spot on. Should you be able to carry wherever you want when ever you want? Sure. Does that mean you HAVE to? No.

    If you decide NOT to carry someplace, then it shouldn't automatically be chalked up as a "loss of liberty" or "oppression". It can be just chalked up to using some tact.

    For example, your going to a relatives house. It's a young kids birthday party. There will be lots of activities that your kid may want you to do and a million little kids running around. Start the thought process.

    Are you in danger by being there? I know i know I know, you can get attacked anywhere. But realistically, unless your going to plug a 5 year old for stealing your cake, your probably pretty safe.

    Are you going to be making a political statement that will BENEFIT the 2a comm.? Maybe not, depending on the crowd of people. You can still bring up the topic in discussion with the other adults. Especially those non gun people. Bring it up over a beer (since your not armed). So you can still push the movement forward but with tact. You just don't need to put the full size 1911 in their face at the table. Sometimes too much too soon can turn a on the fence person to a hell no person. Especially if they get "excited" and you get "excited in response".

    So again, CAN you carry in this example, yea. Should you? Maybe not. Up to you. Ever seen the video of the guy getting shot at a party because as he was hugging another person, a small child came over and pulled his gun out from his OC holster? Guy didn't make it. More recently saw a similar video of a guy at a wedding. Same thing, kids and people around and bam gun goes off.
    Good points. Like I said in my OP, I feel sometimes there is no right or wrong answer. Just the best answer.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  20. #20
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    They had Unloaded OC, and still have OC for certain activities my friend lives half the year there and OC's all the time in the woods.

    They banned it because they hate seeing people exercise their rights.
    Nothing like a $500.00+ paper weight.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  21. #21
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    IMO your op is a pretty legit thought process. Basically what it boils down to is, 'don't oc so the right isn't taken away' ita doesa nota makea any sensa! Sounds like a privilege based position rather than a rights based position. I think they have a very twisted sense of things, how they work, and how they should to be.


    Alas, I speak from no experience, this is just based on observations
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 11-08-2013 at 11:12 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Getting back to my original post. Any thoughts from you veteran OC'ers on my conundrum? I realize my OP is rather lengthy and may seem foolish to some, but these are questions that I can't answer and that bothers me.
    It boils down to how you feel.

    Personally I don't let the anti's persuade my thought process or my method of carry. Although there is a rare occasion where I will CC, mostly having to do with going to a place my other half wants to go that I know are not pro gun. I won't cater to what I consider peoples irrational fears, because of a recent mass shooting. I have actually been thanked for OC'ing after these events, people tell me they feel safer knowing I am armed, that's a great feeling. The hiding of a gun will not change the mind the of an anti, the not exercising of a right in fear of loosing it means you already lost it.

    Would I carry at a Bday party sure, because the people inviting me know I carry everywhere, it has nothing to do with the kids there. A recent birthday party (not a kids one) I was told by a complete stranger (a pregnant female) who was sitting next to me, how awesome it was I was carrying and safe it made her feel.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Hero: Open Carry is against the Constitution

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...hing-personal/

    Two bad apples threaten a citizen for exercising his rights in an open carry state, they also say he shouldn't open carry to preserve the 2nd amendment.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...hing-personal/

    Two bad apples threaten a citizen for exercising his rights in an open carry state, they also say he shouldn't open carry to preserve the 2nd amendment.
    He was saying open carry a RIFLE. Pretty sure this forum isnt about OC rifles. It was saying there's no reason to walk around looking like GI Joe, other then to get a reaction from people (he admitted thats why he was doing it). Well they got a reaction. It was people calling the police. Be careful what you wish for.

  25. #25
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    You wrote;

    'Recently, I was told by a friend that I shouldn't OC. When I asked him why, he responded "because a lot of states that were OC friendly have passed laws that makes OC illegal now because they have had issues with people OC'ing."'

    First thing you should have asked your friend was, "name them". He won't be able to because "lots" of states in his comment do not exist. What your response would show him is that you have some knowledge about this topic and have done some research. You may quell his argument a bit by demonstrating this.

    What he is really trying to tell you is that HE doesn't approve of your decision to OC, not that others don't. Your comments about acting responsibly are spot on.... something all of us should always do all the time; not just when we venture out with sidearm in view. However, you do not have a public responsibility to make others feel comfortable when you are in their presence, unless that is your choice (you mentioned a birthday party for example).

    I also CC when I deem it to be in my better interests at some given time or location. I am not a servant for the OC movement and don't wish to be. I have my own reasons for OC'ing, just as I do for CC'ing, and consider them all that I need to do either. You should be free to feel the same way. As to answering others' questions, just continue doing as I'm sure you are doing, politely and with respect, and you'll be fine. If you encounter someone who wishes to challenge you, be the better person and either beg off or stay and answer... but do remain calm.

    Your friend is not likely to change his feelings about your choice. You may try to ply him with facts, statistics, and knowledge but it he's set in his ways, it will probably go in one ear and out the other. Best to avoid discussions with people like that as they tend to be no-wins situations.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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