N.C (PPP) Confusion

Desert Eagle OC · Nov 7, 2013

So, at 18 years of age you may legally open carry a firearm. But in order to buy that firearm you must get a Pistol Purchase Permit in order to buy privately since an 18 year old cannot go through an FFL.

The police in my counties(own multiple properties) are very confused and tend to be very ignorant towards me. And now I'm scared to O.C without being harassed again.

The other day I was denied a PPP upfront without even getting passed my age. He said "You must be 21 years of age in North Carolina to purchase a PPP." I attempted to show him the law and he just kept being stubborn. I own firearms that were passed down to me by family which doesn't require a permit, I believe. But in another county an officer approached me, and asked my age. When I said "18" he said, "you have 15 minutes to go to your car, and leave this area before I arrest you for illegal possession of a handgun. He was adamant that it's 21 years for N.C. I cited him the law, and he said "Are you a lawyer? If not, I don't believe you." Frustrated, I left and have been scared of being unlawfully arrested for ignorance.

How do I buy another gun privately and O.C without the worry of uneducated police officers harassing me? And without my Sheriff's Department denying me?

I do courtesy calls every time I go for a stroll, tell them my description and I'm open carrying legally and just out for a walk. I call both city police, and the Sheriff's yet still get harassed. Is there a way around this other then letting them arrest me and then suing them? I really don't want legal problems.

Also, can someone cite me a law in N.C that allows 18 year old O.C, because the one I use keeps getting declined.

§ 14-269.7. Prohibitions on handguns for minors.

(a) Any minor who willfully and intentionally possesses or carries a handgun is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

(b) This section does not apply:

(1) To officers and enlisted personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States when in discharge of their official duties or acting under orders requiring them to carry handguns.

(2) To a minor who possesses a handgun for educational or recreational purposes while the minor is supervised by an adult who is present.

(3) To an emancipated minor who possesses such handgun inside his or her residence.

(4) To a minor who possesses a handgun while hunting or trapping outside the limits of an incorporated municipality if he has on his person written permission from a parent, guardian, or other person standing in loco parentis.

(c) The following definitions apply in this section:

(1) Handgun. - A firearm that has a short stock and is designed to be fired by the use of a single hand, or any combination of parts from which such a firearm can be assembled.

(2) Minor. - Any person under 18 years of age. (1993, c. 259, s. 1; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 14, s. 5; 1993 (Reg. Sess., 1994), c. 597, s. 1; 2011-183, s. 9; 2011-268, s. 6.)

Thank you in advance.

Quick question;
a friend was sent to a mental health center at 16 by her abusive parents and was released after they found nothing wrong with her. Can she still get firearm when she turns 18? I heard those records go away once you reach 18, I was doubting this. Thank you again.

WalkingWolf · Nov 7, 2013

You can appeal the decision. Beyond that may I suggest a 1858 Remington, NO PPP, no FFL, and you can LEGALLY have the gun shipped to your doorstep. Buy one with two spare cylinders and it should be under 400 bucks. I carry 51 Colt Navy with my 51 cartridge conversion, and am confident in the ability to stop an aggressor. I also own a 58 but it has a eight inch barrel, I may buy a 5 1/2 later for carry. It takes less than 30 seconds to change cylinders, making reloading faster than my cartridge single actions, and about the same as loading a DA revolver without a speed loader.

And here is the big bonus, there is NO federal paper trail of your purchase. Not to forget that they are downright fun to shoot. Last I looked Cabelas had the 58 with a 5 1/2 on sale for 229, and spare cylinders for 49. Load these with 200 grain soft lead bullets on top of 30 grains FFG and you have a reliable threat stopper. You can get soft cast bullets from desperado cowboy bullets by the 100. Pyrodex is available at Walmart if you cannot find FFG, and during muzzle loading season they usually have caps also. No reloading equipment needed, it is built into the gun.

If her records are accessible I doubt she will pass a background check. But she to can purchase a BP online LEGALLY.

Desert Eagle OC · Nov 7, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
You can appeal the decision. Beyond that may I suggest a 1858 Remington, NO PPP, no FFL, and you can LEGALLY have the gun shipped to your doorstep. Buy one with two spare cylinders and it should be under 400 bucks. I carry 51 Colt Navy with my 51 cartridge conversion, and am confident in the ability to stop an aggressor. I also own a 58 but it has a eight inch barrel, I may buy a 5 1/2 later for carry. It takes less than 30 seconds to change cylinders, making reloading faster than my cartridge single actions, and about the same as loading a DA revolver without a speed loader.

And here is the big bonus, there is NO federal paper trail of your purchase. Not to forget that they are downright fun to shoot. Last I looked Cabelas had the 58 with a 5 1/2 on sale for 229, and spare cylinders for 49. Load these with 200 grain soft lead bullets on top of 30 grains FFG and you have a reliable threat stopper. You can get soft cast bullets from desperado cowboy bullets by the 100. Pyrodex is available at Walmart if you cannot find FFG, and during muzzle loading season they usually have caps also. No reloading equipment needed, it is built into the gun.

If her records are accessible I doubt she will pass a background check. But she to can purchase a BP online LEGALLY.

Thank you,

But I like handguns and semi-automatic guns. They're my thing. I guess I'll just give my mom a 600$ or so gift and maybe she can gift me a pistol in return. But I like your input. I appreciate it. Waiting for some other views.

papa bear · Nov 8, 2013

Nightmare said:
I would delete that statement ASAP and hope the Way Back Machine didn't get it for subsequent review of your hypothetical straw purchase.

just to let you know a straw purchase is when the receiving person is not legally able to own a firearm. in other words if a felon or someone that has been restricted.

you can even allow your 17 year old to carry a gun that you have bought. DESERT EAGLE, what county are you in and what sheriff dept, name of sheriff.

also know that you are right and you can carry a handgun all you want, no matter what some duh mass LEO says. i would have had them arrest me and enjoyed the pay check i would have gotten. but be sure to always carry a recording device on you as a CYA

Desert Eagle OC · Nov 8, 2013

papa bear said:
just to let you know a straw purchase is when the receiving person is not legally able to own a firearm. in other words if a felon or someone that has been restricted.

you can even allow your 17 year old to carry a gun that you have bought. DESERT EAGLE, what county are you in and what sheriff dept, name of sheriff.

also know that you are right and you can carry a handgun all you want, no matter what some duh mass LEO says. i would have had them arrest me and enjoyed the pay check i would have gotten. but be sure to always carry a recording device on you as a CYA

I wanted to tell him that, thank you for clearing that up. It's completely legal for me to do receive a handgun from family without a PPP. Lincoln County Sheriff's department, I don't feel to disclose his name. But I'll probably just get notarized copy of the law and take it in to them. LCSO is so ignorant, they're probably the worst kind of cops. If they refuse to give me my PPP(s) I probably will take them to court about it.

Also, another area I'm cloudy on, I'm all for recording encounters. People say "I'm audio recording" but they're video capturing it. Would this still hold up in court? I've thought audio and video recording was completely legal, but some people say you can only record audio of police, not video. So I'm just a little confused on this.

EDIT: Also I have this question: There was a murder next door last night. My brother who is 17 asks you this: "If someone breaks in, can I use a gun to shoot him with the Stand Your Ground law? If I do will I or my family have any sort of charges." I think he can, as long as he's on his property. Correct?

papa bear · Nov 8, 2013

Desert Eagle OC said:
I wanted to tell him that, thank you for clearing that up. It's completely legal for me to do receive a handgun from family without a PPP. Lincoln County Sheriff's department, I don't feel to disclose his name. But I'll probably just get notarized copy of the law and take it in to them. LCSO is so ignorant, they're probably the worst kind of cops. If they refuse to give me my PPP(s) I probably will take them to court about it.

Also, another area I'm cloudy on, I'm all for recording encounters. People say "I'm audio recording" but they're video capturing it. Would this still hold up in court? I've thought audio and video recording was completely legal, but some people say you can only record audio of police, not video. So I'm just a little confused on this.

EDIT: Also I have this question: There was a murder next door last night. My brother who is 17 asks you this: "If someone breaks in, can I use a gun to shoot him with the Stand Your Ground law? If I do will I or my family have any sort of charges." I think he can, as long as he's on his property. Correct?

i will give Lincoln county a call next week. this is the trouble with our laws in this state that the local level can interpret them any which way they want. technically you do need a PPP to give a gun to even a relative, but the fact that the PPP has nothing to do with the gun and no one has to keep them makes them even more useless

just to let you know NC is a 1 party state. that means that you can record a conversation on a Phone line (wired), if you are one of the persons on the line. if a conversation is in the open air then you can record it all you want. there is no expectation of privacy. the courts have ruled that Government officials, and LEOs have no expectation of privacy, even in a building. so you do not have to inform them they are being recorded

actually to let you know that is not what "stand your ground" means, it basically means you don't have the responsibility to run, if you have the legal right to be where you are. the only time you can use deadly force, is when you are in fear for your life, or a possibility of sever injury. in other words if they are just stealing your TV, you can't use lethal force to stop them. but if they are charging you, and/or wielding a weapon, then you can protect yourself

Desert Eagle OC · Nov 8, 2013

papa bear said:
i will give Lincoln county a call next week. this is the trouble with our laws in this state that the local level can interpret them any which way they want. technically you do need a PPP to give a gun to even a relative, but the fact that the PPP has nothing to do with the gun and no one has to keep them makes them even more useless

just to let you know NC is a 1 party state. that means that you can record a conversation on a Phone line (wired), if you are one of the persons on the line. if a conversation is in the open air then you can record it all you want. there is no expectation of privacy. the courts have ruled that Government officials, and LEOs have no expectation of privacy, even in a building. so you do not have to inform them they are being recorded

actually to let you know that is not what "stand your ground" means, it basically means you don't have the responsibility to run, if you have the legal right to be where you are. the only time you can use deadly force, is when you are in fear for your life, or a possibility of sever injury. in other words if they are just stealing your TV, you can't use lethal force to stop them. but if they are charging you, and/or wielding a weapon, then you can protect yourself

Thank you a lot Papa Bear, I appreciate it greatly.

So, if a threat is charging my 17 year old brother, he can use a handgun on his property? Even if the handgun belongs to someone else in the house? Because we're all on edge, someone was murdered right next to us, and we're all scared. I hope we don't have to use such force. But thank you for clearing that all up. I really do appreciate it.

I thought you didn't need a PPP for a family member gifting you a handgun. I guess I was confused.

S&W357mag · Nov 11, 2013

Your asking the wrong people for advice. Go to armedpersonaldefense.com for expert legal, and free gun law interpretations for Arizona. Those who control this site, they are all extremely rude and condescending. I'm serious, a place with all the potential this site has, shouldn't be ruled by individuals such as these. They even insult the moderators. I've only been a member for a couple days and have already decided it was a major mistake. Spread the word around and maybe the moderators or administrators will do something to stop this garbage. They are running individuals off who need a place to discuss important subject matter.

By the way, a 16 yr. old can carry in the sate of Arizona, even in public. There are certain laws and restrictions of course. They must have written permission from a parent or guardian,it doesn't have to be notorized, but it's best to do so, there is also a curfew, and they must carry open. Other than that, visit Mr. Douglas Little's web site for the specifics, as he was the one who helped my wife and I with the legal issues when we armed our boys. But what ever you do, don't put any trust in these people though.

Ya bunch of Nazi's !!

S&W357mag

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away"

wardtom084 · Nov 11, 2013

I doubt that you know the judge that serves the county or a friend that does. If you could contact him he could set them straight with a simple phone call.

WalkingWolf · Nov 11, 2013

The OP is not in Arizona, you were scoffed at because you were full of it. And still are...

Rusty Young Man · Nov 11, 2013

S&W357mag said:
SNIP...By the way, a 16 yr. old can carry in the sate of Arizona, even in public. There are certain laws and restrictions of course. They must have written permission from a parent or guardian,it doesn't have to be notorized, but it's best to do so, there is also a curfew, and they must carry open.

AZ Revised Satutes said:
13-3111.
Minors prohibited from carrying or possessing firearms; exceptions; seizure and forfeiture; penalties; classification
A. Except as provided in subsection B, an unemancipated person who is under eighteen years of age and who is unaccompanied by a parent, grandparent or guardian, or a certified hunter safety instructor or certified firearms safety instructor acting with the consent of the unemancipated person's parent or guardian, shall not knowingly carry or possess on his person, within his immediate control, or in or on a means of transportation a firearm in any place that is open to the public or on any street or highway or on any private property except private property owned or leased by the minor or the minor's parent, grandparent or guardian.
B. This section does not apply to a person who is fourteen, fifteen, sixteen or seventeen years of age and who is any of the following:
1. Engaged in lawful hunting or shooting events or marksmanship practice at established ranges or other areas where the discharge of a firearm is not prohibited.
2. Engaged in lawful transportation of an unloaded firearm for the purpose of lawful hunting.
3. Engaged in lawful transportation of an unloaded firearm between the hours of 5:00 a.m. and 10:00 p.m. for the purpose of shooting events or marksmanship practice at established ranges or other areas where the discharge of a firearm is not prohibited.
4. Engaged in activities requiring the use of a firearm that are related to the production of crops, livestock, poultry, livestock products, poultry products, or ratites or in the production or storage of agricultural commodities.
C. If the minor is not exempt under subsection B and is in possession of a firearm, a peace officer shall seize the firearm at the time the violation occurs.
...
G. This section is supplemental to any other law imposing a criminal penalty for the use or exhibition of a deadly weapon. A minor who violates this section may be prosecuted and adjudicated delinquent for any other criminal conduct involving the use or exhibition of the deadly weapon.
H. A person who violates subsection A is guilty of a class 6 felony.

Those "certain laws and regulations" the troll* talks about are likely what will get someone visiting AZ (though I understand the OP is not in AZ) in trouble, not our advice.

*See post #32 of the thread this troll started for my reasoning. Decide for yourselves:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?118438-Surviving-evil&p=2003172#post2003172

NC-Heel · Nov 12, 2013

Just because a LEO says something is illegal does not mean it is against the law. The best thing to do when confronted with inaccuracies is to be polite but firm if you know you are in the right. Police will use threats of arrest to intimidate. Ask for them to confirm their interpretation or cite the law. You run the risk of being detained until they figure out they are in the wrong. If that happens follow all the official channels, ie formal complaints and civil actions, to make sure it doesn't happen again. It is good to know at your age you are ready to stand up for your rights.

As far as hearing people that state they are audio recording when they are filming, it goes back to the archaic wire tapping laws. When most of those laws were written video recording was in its' infancy and not addressed. Most of the states where someone announces they are audio recording are states that require the other party to be notified. N.C. is not one of those. The laws of those states requires you to notify other parties you are "audio recording" that if you said you are "videoing" you have not notified them correctly under that states' laws.

carolina guy · Nov 13, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
You can appeal the decision. Beyond that may I suggest a 1858 Remington, NO PPP, no FFL, and you can LEGALLY have the gun shipped to your doorstep. Buy one with two spare cylinders and it should be under 400 bucks. I carry 51 Colt Navy with my 51 cartridge conversion, and am confident in the ability to stop an aggressor. I also own a 58 but it has a eight inch barrel, I may buy a 5 1/2 later for carry. It takes less than 30 seconds to change cylinders, making reloading faster than my cartridge single actions, and about the same as loading a DA revolver without a speed loader.

And here is the big bonus, there is NO federal paper trail of your purchase. Not to forget that they are downright fun to shoot. Last I looked Cabelas had the 58 with a 5 1/2 on sale for 229, and spare cylinders for 49. Load these with 200 grain soft lead bullets on top of 30 grains FFG and you have a reliable threat stopper. You can get soft cast bullets from desperado cowboy bullets by the 100. Pyrodex is available at Walmart if you cannot find FFG, and during muzzle loading season they usually have caps also. No reloading equipment needed, it is built into the gun.

If her records are accessible I doubt she will pass a background check. But she to can purchase a BP online LEGALLY.

WW...quick question...the more I read about the 1858, the more I like it...

Given:

§ 14-409.11. "Antique firearm" defined.
(a) The term "antique firearm" means any of the following:
(1) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898.
(2) Any replica of any firearm described in subdivision (1) of this subsection if the replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
(3) Any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition.
(b) For purposes of this section, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which:
(1) Incorporates a firearm frame or receiver.
(2) Is converted into a muzzle loading weapon.
(3) Is a muzzle loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. (1969, c. 101, s. 2; 2006-259, s. 7(a).)

My take is that if you do the conversion cylinder, it would still qualify as an "antique" firearm since it has not been "designed or redesigned" in anyway, just had a part replaced. Is my thinking correct?

WalkingWolf · Nov 13, 2013

carolina guy said:
WW...quick question...the more I read about the 1858, the more I like it...

Given:

My take is that if you do the conversion cylinder, it would still qualify as an "antique" firearm since it has not been "designed or redesigned" in anyway, just had a part replaced. Is my thinking correct?

I am not sure on that, my navy conversions were done at the factory so they had to go through a FFL. But a person can easily convert a C&P on their own, and no approval is necessary. When I am in doubt I carry one of my cap and ball, besides I can actually reload faster with a spare cylinder than reloading a cartridge SA revolver.

solus · Nov 13, 2013

First, i am not an attorney!!

second, as has been stated out here many times...do your request in writing and do not debate w/the deputy about the merits of you meeting their perception of the criteria of the law nor provide any documentation about the law. just ask for the PPP form and insist you be allowed to complete and submit the PPP paperwork w/your $5 so the sheriff must decline in writing!! (take an adult witness who shall be silent during the entire discussion YOU are going to have w/the deputy.)

here is a link to the statute:
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_52A.html

specifically 14-404 a(3) is the specific chapter and verse you wish to put on the ppp when you are completing the form...the PPP is for protection of business, home, family or property and of course target shooting and hunting.
(a(3) Fully satisfied himself or herself that the applicant desires the possession of the weapon mentioned for (i) the protection of the home, business, person, family or property, (ii) target shooting, (iii) collecting, or (iv) hunting.)

14-404 b talks about the sheriff's refusal and their seven day window to respond why the sheriff is refusing to provide you w/a ppp.

i highly recommend you and your brother take a NRA basic pistol course in the near future.

good luck and let us know the outcome of your quest...

ipse

solus · Nov 13, 2013

first i am not an attorney

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

go to page 55 and look at 18USC922x (middle of the bottom column) and read up about <21 rights and parent or caregiver permission slips.

of interest to your query about your brother and yourself defending yourselves for that matter is paragraph 3(D) which bloody hell wont cut and paste out of the AFT manual so you have to read it yourself...sorry.

straw purchases (correct term) are not affected by parents and caregivers giving firearms to their off spring. unfortunately, you do not qualify for the caregiver role to give your brother a firearm.

watch the video here: http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-educational-seminars/index.html

ipse

carolina guy · Nov 13, 2013

solus said:
first i am not an attorney

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

go to page 55 and look at 18USC922x (middle of the bottom column) and read up about <21 rights and parent or caregiver permission slips.

of interest to your query about your brother and yourself defending yourselves for that matter is paragraph 3(D) which bloody hell wont cut and paste out of the AFT manual so you have to read it yourself...sorry.

straw purchases (correct term) are not affected by parents and caregivers giving firearms to their off spring. unfortunately, you do not qualify for the caregiver role to give your brother a firearm.

watch the video here: http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-educational-seminars/index.html

ipse

Let me follow-up with IANAL and then from NCGS (this is what changed under HB937) and the linked version formats better, check it out:

"§ 14‑316. Permitting young children to use dangerous firearms.(a) It shall be unlawful for any parent, guardian, or person standing in locoparentis,person to knowingly permit his a child under the age of 12 years to havethe access to, or possession, custody or use in any manner whatever, of any gun, pistol or other dangerous firearm, whether such weapon be loaded or unloaded,except when such unless the person has the permission of the child's parent or guardian, and the child is under the supervision of the parent, guardian or person standing in loco parentis. It shall be unlawful for any other person to knowingly furnish such child any weapon enumerated herein.an adult. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.(b) Air rifles, air pistols, and BB guns shall not be deemed "dangerous firearms" within the meaning of subsection (a) of this section except in the following counties: Anson, Caldwell, Caswell, Chowan, Cleveland, Cumberland, Durham, Forsyth, Gaston, Harnett, Haywood, Mecklenburg, Stanly, Stokes, Surry, Union, Vance."

Couple that with 18 USC922(x)(3)(A)(iii) and (iv)

(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State and local law;

or even more specifically 18 USC922(x)(3)(D):

the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which the juvenile is an invited guest.

So, my take would be that since NC statute doesn't prohibit a 17yo to possess a handgun in the house for self defense, and if you wrote him a note, or if it was an inherited gun (18 USC922(x)(C) ) then he should be "ok"...but please do read, verify what is said here and if you still have any doubts, talk to an attorney...not a cop or just someone on the web.

carolina guy · Nov 13, 2013

Desert Eagle OC said:
I wanted to tell him that, thank you for clearing that up. It's completely legal for me to do receive a handgun from family without a PPP. Lincoln County Sheriff's department, I don't feel to disclose his name. But I'll probably just get notarized copy of the law and take it in to them. LCSO is so ignorant, they're probably the worst kind of cops. If they refuse to give me my PPP(s) I probably will take them to court about it.

Also, another area I'm cloudy on, I'm all for recording encounters. People say "I'm audio recording" but they're video capturing it. Would this still hold up in court? I've thought audio and video recording was completely legal, but some people say you can only record audio of police, not video. So I'm just a little confused on this.

EDIT: Also I have this question: There was a murder next door last night. My brother who is 17 asks you this: "If someone breaks in, can I use a gun to shoot him with the Stand Your Ground law? If I do will I or my family have any sort of charges." I think he can, as long as he's on his property. Correct?

Also, I think you are referring to the "Castle Doctrine" in NC...not the "Stand Your Ground" law in other states:

You can read more here: http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_14.html

ftp://www.ncleg.net/Bills/2011/Bills/Senate/PDF/S34v0.pdf here is the original legislation with the short title.

Sherpernurnun · Nov 17, 2013

Accidentally posted because tapatalk looks exactly like my search bar for Bing haha

Sent from my HTC6990LVW using Tapatalk

WalkingWolf · Nov 17, 2013

Sherpernurnun said:
1858 Remington

Sent from my HTC6990LVW using Tapatalk

I already suggested that to OP, seems he is not interested in the simple solution. Good thing, because with the interest in fancy semi autos it keeps the price down on new 58 Remington.

N.C (PPP) Confusion

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