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Thread: Massachusetts: No-Warrant Home Search Legislation being proposed

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Massachusetts: No-Warrant Home Search Legislation being proposed

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...n-has-his-way/

    FUQ:

    "A Massachusetts politician has put forth a proposal to allow local police to enter homes without a warrant in order to inspect whether gun owners are properly storing their firearms.
    Police Entering Homes to Make Sure Guns Are Stored Safely? If This Politician Has His Way...

    The idea was floated by Swampsott Selectman Barry Greenfield, who expressed frustration about the Newtown school massacre in the neighboring state of Connecticut and in other cases where people have obtained their parents’ guns to carry out shootings.

    “We need the ability to enforce the state law,” Greenfield said, according to the Swampscott Patch."

    Apparently it's not a requirement for a Massachusetts legislator to actually understand the Constitution before being elected....
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Why should politicians be any different than any other guberment employee. Several months back, I had my local assessor stating that they had a right to enter my house for "assessment purposes".

    I promptly booted that person off my land.

    --Moderator edited--
    BS. My guess is that they didn't want to be bothered cleaning up your remains...

    Much as you might desire to be the central subject of all postings, this Massachusetts situation isn't about you or what you may or may not have done.

    This is about alerting our 2A friends in Massachusetts about possible legislation.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-11-2013 at 05:31 PM.
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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Why should politicians be any different than any other guberment employee. Several months back, I had my local assessor stating that they had a right to enter my house for "assessment purposes".

    I promptly booted that person off my land.

    I received a call from the police minutes later demanding that I allow access. I said no. Police said that they would send a SWAT team to my house to affect the entry. I told the police to go ahead and send your SWAT team but I would still not allow them onto my land. The policeman said that they would use force to affect the entry. I asked him to be in the front of that line.

    Oddly enough, no SWAT team came to my house. I guess that they all wanted to go home that day ...
    David,

    Please stop this sort of posting. You should be as cautious with your words as you are with your firearms. This is Massachusetts we are talking about. Your advice is going to get some newbie killed there.

    Live Free or Die,
    Thundar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    David,

    Please stop this sort of posting. You should be as cautious with your words as you are with your firearms. This is Massachusetts we are talking about. Your advice is going to get some newbie killed there.

    Live Free or Die,
    Thundar
    The 4th amendment covers both jurisdictions I think. And you are jumping to wild conclusions. Settle down now ... my story is factual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    BS. My guess is that they didn't want to be bothered cleaning up your remains...

    Much as you might desire to be the central subject of all postings, this Massachusetts situation isn't about you or what you may or may not have done.

    This is about alerting our 2A friends in Massachusetts about possible legislation.
    Ya beat me to calling BS.

    I don't doubt he told an assessor to go away. SWAT team???? Bravo Sierra. That poster is a legend in his own mind.


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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    "A Massachusetts politician has put forth a proposal to allow local police to enter homes without a warrant in order to inspect whether gun owners are properly storing their firearms.
    Does Swampsott Selectman Barry Greenfield actually have a brain? Does he know the English Parliament Townshend Acts of 1767 - supporting searches w general warrants - led to the Boston Massacre? Perhaps Greenfield is a descendant of Mass Lt Gov Thos Hutchinson? Ben Franklin leaked Hutchinson's letters to the press and Boston Sons of Liberty stripped Hutchinson's house down to the frame. He fled Boston before the Revolutionary war and died in exile in England.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Not going to happen. No way it would pass. This is an example of a really dumb politician.

    They'd need to find someone else to enter someone's home to search, because I know I wouldn't even be asking guys to enter, never mind trying to force entry. I must say this actually pisses me off (try not to get like that) because 1st and foremost it's egregious violation of rights and 2nd they will get someone hurt over their stupid ideas. Before you know it, they get a chief on board, then he pushes and gets some LEO who thinks it's ok (not I) and then you have violence.

    Not really concerned this will pass (it won't, even here in the Commonwealth). But I know who I'll be writing a letter to tomorrow just in case. And I'll have to see what the deal is with his election cycle.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The 4th amendment covers both jurisdictions I think. And you are jumping to wild conclusions. Settle down now ... my story is factual.
    David,

    I did not call you a liar or even a truth stretcher. I am not in a position to judge the truth of what you are saying. What I question is the message - you challenge police when they say they are entering, taunt the police, ask the officer on the phone to be at the front of the line. This is a foolish way to handle the situation. Your stories are often reckless and improper.

    I give every person on the forum the benefit of the doubt, accepting different points of view and learning from them. What I fear is that some here may actually learn the wrong thing from your posts.You sir are only the second person in seven years of posting on OCDO to actually frustrate me. There is no reason to your postings, only foolish advice and half baked stories that could get the newbies arrested or worse.

    I do not want a flame war, so I would kindly ask that you act responsibly and stop posting in such a reckless manner.

    Thundar
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    David,

    I did not call you a liar or even a truth stretcher. I am not in a position to judge the truth of what you are saying. What I question is the message - you challenge police when they say they are entering, taunt the police, ask the officer on the phone to be at the front of the line. This is a foolish way to handle the situation.
    And exactly what would you have done?

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    What would I have done?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    And exactly what would you have done?
    Prolly the exact same thing, but I'm kinda dumb like that. I spout of at the mouth quite a bit when it comes to things like that, so please don't follow my example. I have a bad habit of writing checks my body has to cash. I've just been lucky that I've always had money in the bank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustangkiller View Post
    Prolly the exact same thing, but I'm kinda dumb like that. I spout of at the mouth quite a bit when it comes to things like that, so please don't follow my example. I have a bad habit of writing checks my body has to cash. I've just been lucky that I've always had money in the bank.
    What alternative is there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    What alternative is there?
    Not taunt and not tell the guy to be the first through the door (obviously a threat seeing as how I'm pretty sure you weren't inviting them over for coffee). You can politely say NO you can't come in. Or just say NO. Usually the less is the better.

    There are many many guys on here with solid advice on how to deal with getting jammed up with leos, and I don't recall any of those guys saying to do this. Also, they keep calling you out for potentially getting someone hurt. If you want to go out with a funny quip on your lips, go for it. But don't spread the cancer to everyone else, because you certainly won't be there to pick up the pieces when they get hurt or killed. But each to his own I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Not taunt and not tell the guy to be the first through the door (obviously a threat seeing as how I'm pretty sure you weren't inviting them over for coffee). You can politely say NO you can't come in. Or just say NO. Usually the less is the better.

    There are many many guys on here with solid advice on how to deal with getting jammed up with leos, and I don't recall any of those guys saying to do this. Also, they keep calling you out for potentially getting someone hurt. If you want to go out with a funny quip on your lips, go for it. But don't spread the cancer to everyone else, because you certainly won't be there to pick up the pieces when they get hurt or killed. But each to his own I guess.
    Look...Primus doesn't like RKBA ... an anti for sure

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    This was proposed in Arlington County in the mid 90's by the, then, new police chief. This new chief wanted to be able to inspect home storage facilities of Class 3 firearms. It is one of the reasons I finally escaped that entrenched bastion of craziness.
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    Anonymous tip and then exigent circumstances is claimed, all in the name of protecting society. Let a judge work out the legalities later. Happened before and will happen again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Anonymous tip and then exigent circumstances is claimed, all in the name of protecting society. Let a judge work out the legalities later. Happened before and will happen again.
    And the anonymous tipster will be of his ilk posting sycophantic cautions here. "Ohh, don't pizzon da' man, dat'll give him legalistic cause to kill you."
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Anonymous tip and then exigent circumstances is claimed, all in the name of protecting society. Let a judge work out the legalities later. Happened before and will happen again.
    Exigent circumstances another court invented destruction of the supposed protections of the 4th.

    The writs the colonist hated so much didn't go this far.....and people say there is no tyranny.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Anonymous tip and then exigent circumstances is claimed, all in the name of protecting society. Let a judge work out the legalities later. Happened before and will happen again.
    In respect to the 4th amendment, the courts have ruled time and time again that the protections offered under the 4th are most acute when the place to be searched is the home.

    Even in wacky CT, where there is a law saying that you cannot interfere with police even when its unlawful activity, the courts carved out an exception to the invasion of the home. So, in other places (other than the home) you must submit - but not in the home. You have the right to resist an unlawful entry of your dwelling.

    I guess it comes down to a personal choice and goes to the question: why do I own guns?
    If the answer is to protect yourself from ordinary criminals, then I can understand why you would want to go the route of allowing them entry w/o resistance and then following up with a government court but if the answer is to protect yourself from the government then a different opinion or course of action would be understandable.

    People who have guns to protect themselves from the government likely already know where and when they can use their RKBA to resist the government in a legal sense already. And those that do not have their guns to protect themselves from the government likely have no idea where and when they can legally resist government activities.

    Some gun owners should already have these answers - or smart gun owners already have this information -- gonna start googling when a battering ram is being pounded on your door? lol
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 11-12-2013 at 11:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Exigent circumstances another court invented destruction of the supposed protections of the 4th.

    The writs the colonist hated so much didn't go this far.....and people say there is no tyranny.
    It just occurred to me: our founding fathers were a bunch of slave owners looking for freedom .... lalalala

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    It just occurred to me: our founding fathers were a bunch of slave owners looking for freedom .... lalalala
    Abigail Smith Adams family owned at least two. Look up the history of Brown University's endowment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    Abigail Smith Adams family owned at least two. Look up the history of Brown University's endowment.
    Harry Potter series had slaves -- the elves or whatever that Jar Jar Binks, sorry meant Dobie ... he died a free elf hooray !

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Can we please get back on topic?

    This is about legislation being proposed in Massachusetts that would allow law enforcement officers to enter a home without a warrant, to determine if firearms are being stored within the property in the manner dictated by existing law. It is a 4th Amendment situation that is specifically occurring in Massachusetts. Comments on where else this may have been tried (e.g., the comment about Arlington County, VA) are welcome as being informational about the outcome of such efforts. In the unlikely event that this legislation succeeds, it will be the "camel's nose under the edge of the tent" that will start to erode very strong 4th Amendment rights against unlawful search.

    This thread is NOT about:
    Slave Owning founding fathers
    Bullscat bravado against assessors
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Can we please get back on topic?

    This is about legislation being proposed in Massachusetts that would allow law enforcement officers to enter a home without a warrant, to determine if firearms are being stored within the property in the manner dictated by existing law. It is a 4th Amendment situation that is specifically occurring in Massachusetts. Comments on where else this may have been tried (e.g., the comment about Arlington County, VA) are welcome as being informational about the outcome of such efforts. In the unlikely event that this legislation succeeds, it will be the "camel's nose under the edge of the tent" that will start to erode very strong 4th Amendment rights against unlawful search.

    This thread is NOT about:
    Slave Owning founding fathers
    Bullscat bravado against assessors
    Such laws do not erode the 4th amendment at all as they would be found unconstitutional. Wouldn't you think?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    MA will use this law to take one step closer to confiscation. Remember, if the firearm is not stored properly then you are not fit to possess. The warrant-less search is not the issue, just a symptom.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    MA will use this law to take one step closer to confiscation. Remember, if the firearm is not stored properly then you are not fit to possess. The warrant-less search is not the issue, just a symptom.
    If this legislation were to be enacted, it would pose a serious erosion of 4th Amendment rights. I also believe that if the law were to be enacted, there would most certainly be a court case initiated to declare it unConstitutional. While the first-line court may issue an injunction until a decision could be reached, the whole process may take a long time to come to final determination.

    In any case, it seems amazing to me that any elected legislator could even conceive that this legislation is Constitutional.
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