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Thread: Arrested in Aurora, CO and need help!!

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    Arrested in Aurora, CO and need help!!

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    Last edited by hfurrow; 11-14-2013 at 12:06 AM.

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    Regular Member Red Dawg's Avatar
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    Maybe copy to, or tell the story in the Colorado Sub forum. Also, sounds like one of those silly "laws" to be used so they don't just let you go. IANAL but, I would presume that the law is on the books for destroying the serial numbers, not for painting, or powder coating, or ingraving, etc...Look at what gunsmiths and others do...Hell, right in your neighborhood that Gunsmoke Arms, or whatever it is. The family with the cute daughter, had the show....They do everything to a handgun....
    Talk to the guys from your home state, and they may recommend a decent 2A kinda lawyer...
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    Four years imprisonment is not a misdemeanor. A common definition of felony is 'liable to a year and a day of imprisonment.'
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member skeith5's Avatar
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    With all the painting you did was the serial number covered? Is that really what this charge is about?

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeith5 View Post
    With all the painting you did was the serial number covered? Is that really what this charge is about?
    That's exactly what I was thinking. Calls to mind the recent problem at the airport in New York where firearm serial numbers were "obscured" by paint.
    Last edited by JustaShooter; 11-13-2013 at 11:15 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I do not think this was about the "gun". I think you found yourself a BULLY that did not get what he wanted when you "resisted". This may be a great deal of work, but you must nail this guy because he is doing this every day. File an FOI for EVERYTHING. The report, the dashcam, his personnel file, everything. Save your attorney some time and get the ball rolling. Good luck
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    I suggest that the OP get a lawyer.

    What other suggestion is there? Skip bail to another country?

    Maybe the cop has a different version of events.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 11-13-2013 at 12:47 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    There are some unusual aspects to the OP's story, but giving him benefit of the doubt suggest not posting more here w/o the express permission of an attorney. There would appear to be recoverable damages ultimately too.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by hfurrow View Post
    He than says "you gonna give me some ID?" I start to say no again asking what crime i was suspected of and he grabs my right wrist twisting it around and turning me around.
    Obviously I'm not an attorney but here is my 2 cents worth.

    Unfortunately, Colorado is one of approximately 25 states that have enacted a "Stop and Identify" statute. These "laws" allow the cops to detain persons suspected of committing a crime and request such persons to identify themselves, and arrest them if they do not.

    Colorado's "Stopping of a Subject" law is particularly onerous. It allows the cops to demand your id if it is "available."

    The applicable Colorado statue - Colo. Rev. Stat. §16-3-103(1) - reads,

    "Stopping of suspect. (1) A peace officer may stop any person who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime and may require him to give his name and address, identification if available, and an explanation of his actions. A peace officer shall not require any person who is stopped pursuant to this section to produce or divulge such person's social security number. The stopping shall not constitute an arrest."

    http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_d...001/sl_261.htm

    My understanding is that the cops interpret this statue to mean that if you have your ID on or near your person at the time of the request for it, it is considered "available" and therefore you are required by law to obey their demand.

    Failure to produce your ID card is then a violation of the law and you can be arrested simply for failing to hand your over your papers please. Once under arrest (for refusing to produce a physical ID card) the cops had the right to search your vehicle. Any contraband found is therefore admissible against you.

    It sounds to me that you are being charged with the following Colorado laws:

    "9.32.030 Possessing a defaced firearm. A person commits a violation of this section if he knowingly and unlawfully possesses a firearm, the manufacturer's serial number of which, or other distinguishing number or identification mark, has been removed, defaced, altered or destroyed except by normal wear and tear. (Ord. 896-93: Ord. 347 77)"

    "9.32.040 Defacing a firearm. A person commits a violation of this section if such person knowingly removes, defaces, covers, alters, or destroys the manufacturer's serial number, or any other distinguishing number or identification mark of a firearm. (Ord. 896-93: Ord. 347 77)"

    If you sanded over, painted over, or taped over the gun's serial number you could be in violation.

    I STRONGLY SUGGEST THAT YOU REMOVE YOUR ENTIRE POSTING BY EDITING IT AND REFRAIN FROM DISCUSSING YOUR CASE AT ALL ON THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET FORUM! Contact the NRA for a friearm attorney referral.

    I feel really bad for you and I'll say some prayers for you as well.

    Augustin

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    The problem y'see is that there isn't a statute in the Colorado code for "Not Respectin' an Officer's Authoritah."
    The charges will be nolle prosequi'd (at least if the county solicitor is any good.)

    To prove the case the state will have to prove that the numbers are unreadable. Not unreadable in a dark room with a blindfold, but unreadable and non-recoverable.

    I've heard that close to 40% of arrests by the police are not prosecuted, if it's true I think the police would be aware of it, don't you? So they're either doing extremely shoddy police work, or they're making arrests they know aren't good enough but just don't care.

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    As others have said - DELETE your post & ask others who may have quoted you to do the same. What you post here can be used against you in court. By posting it - a slimey DA can argue you have "admitted guilt" in a public forum. Seek a lawyer ASAP - do not speak to police without him/her present. All it takes is one bad / steriod paranoid cop to make your life a living hell, and sadly it looks like you found him. Find out if you can get any video camera video from any of the businesses / your employer. Also have someone else (not you) FOIA as much documentation as possble concerning this incident. They (PD) will not give it to you sighting you are the subject of an ongoing investigation.

    Good luck and God Bless!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I've heard that close to 40% of arrests by the police are not prosecuted,...
    Actually the stats are much higher than 40%. Colorado criminal statistics for the years 2006 through 2011 show that Colorado prosecutors rely on plea bargains to reach convictions an overwhelming 97.6 percent of the time (according to documents obtained by the Independence Institute through a Colorado Open Records Act request.)

    Often the cops use what I call the "shotgun," meaning that they overcharge by throwing as many different charges at the defendent as they can dream up so that he/she will be more likely to reach a plea deal on just one or two of the many charges. And often, especially with a good attorney, they (the attorney and the DA) will simply agree on some other charge that has nothing at all to do with the facts or evidence. I suspect that will be the case with hfurrow - he won't go to court and won't accept a plea for either of the two charges, but instead he will cop a plea to some other totally unrelated "crime."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    What you post here can be used against you in court. By posting it - a slimey DA can argue you have "admitted guilt" in a public forum.
    I felt the poster made some self-incriminating comments about his case. The chances that the DA will ever find out about this forum is slim, but why take the chance?

    I may be paranoid but I tend to think the potential problems with discussing a criminal case on a public forum could be much bigger. For example, if the crime is also a Federal offense (which is NOT the case here because the defaced firearm didn't cross a state line) then it is possible that the Feds could get involved with the case. I'm guessing that the ATF monitors this forum closely.

    Also, I know for a fact that some cops have hi-tech scanners that can detect firearms inside of a dwelling or a vehicle. If one of the conditions of the defendents release is that he is not allowed to possess a firearm or other dangerous weapon (highly likely in a firearm case such as this), and he pisses the cops off by being highly public about his case, there is always the chance that the cops will try to bust him again by catching him with a prohibited weapon. I recommend that hforrow NOT be in possession of a gun pending the outcome of his case.

    Also, this forum is about open carry and it is not intended for seeking advice about criminal matters unrelated to open carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post

    Also, I know for a fact that some cops have hi-tech scanners that can detect firearms inside of a dwelling or a vehicle..
    And who makes those scanners .... have a manufacture name and model #? Interested to know.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    And who makes those scanners .... have a manufacture name and model #? Interested to know.
    There are scanners (thermo) that can detect under some circumstances whether or not a gun is being held. Don't know of any that will simply detect the presence of one independently - they don't give off that many roentgens.
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    Roentgens do not 'follow' "thermo." Thermo is not ionizing radiation for which roentgens are an obsolete unit.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Roentgens do not 'follow' "thermo." Thermo is not ionizing radiation for which roentgens are an obsolete unit.
    Ah yes, forgot your background, to which I defer.

    Still don't see LEA as having that capacity routinely.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Ah yes, forgot your background, to which I defer.

    Still don't see LEA as having that capacity routinely.
    Our leos have vehicles that take in, process, and make a log of all licence plates around the vehicle. It does this automatically and pops up information on said vehicles/owners. It searches everyone...

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Roentgens do not 'follow' "thermo." Thermo is not ionizing radiation for which roentgens are an obsolete unit.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattinWA View Post
    Our leos have vehicles that take in, process, and make a log of all licence plates around the vehicle. It does this automatically and pops up information on said vehicles/owners. It searches everyone...
    I understand the license plate recognition thing, but that has nothing to do with technology of scanning a building for guns.

    My tongue-in-cheek response (deferring) to Nightmare was a not so subtle acknowledgement of his persona - more won't say
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post
    The applicable Colorado statue - Colo. Rev. Stat. §16-3-103(1) - reads,

    "Stopping of suspect. (1) A peace officer may stop any person who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime and may require him to give his name and address, identification if available, and an explanation of his actions. A peace officer shall not require any person who is stopped pursuant to this section to produce or divulge such person's social security number. The stopping shall not constitute an arrest."

    http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_d...001/sl_261.htm
    Of course Terry vs Ohio and DeBerry vs US would still apply. A holstered firearm does not constitute reasonable suspicion or probable cause of a crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dario View Post
    Of course Terry vs Ohio and DeBerry vs US would still apply. A holstered firearm does not constitute reasonable suspicion or probable cause of a crime.
    You guys are lucky, those rulings don't apply in Georgia due to a recent appallingly bad court decision.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    The problem y'see is that there isn't a statute in the Colorado code for "Not Respectin' an Officer's Authoritah."
    The charges will be nolle prosequi'd (at least if the county solicitor is any good.)

    To prove the case the state will have to prove that the numbers are unreadable. Not unreadable in a dark room with a blindfold, but unreadable and non-recoverable.

    I've heard that close to 40% of arrests by the police are not prosecuted, if it's true I think the police would be aware of it, don't you? So they're either doing extremely shoddy police work, or they're making arrests they know aren't good enough but just don't care.
    Or the system is full of liberals. "Oh it's ok he crushed her face in, my client promises not to do it again" Dismissed... Or the victim doesn't show up, or the witness you need doesn't show up... I try not to take offense to people's opinions, but I've gotta push back on blatant BS such as above bolded.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    The problem y'see is that there isn't a statute in the Colorado code for "Not Respectin' an Officer's Authoritah."
    The charges will be nolle prosequi'd (at least if the county solicitor is any good.)

    To prove the case the state will have to prove that the numbers are unreadable. Not unreadable in a dark room with a blindfold, but unreadable and non-recoverable.

    I've heard that close to 40% of arrests by the police are not prosecuted, if it's true I think the police would be aware of it, don't you? So they're either doing extremely shoddy police work, or they're making arrests they know aren't good enough but just don't care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Or the system is full of liberals. "Oh it's ok he crushed her face in, my client promises not to do it again" Dismissed... Or the victim doesn't show up, or the witness you need doesn't show up... I try not to take offense to people's opinions, but I've gotta push back on blatant BS such as above bolded.
    Or that the prosecutor knows he won't win on the original charges and uses the threat of coercive violence of the state to get people to plea. So they are then guilty of a crime they didn't commit.

    And that this encourages a system where the costumed street agents throw out a wide net and take everybody in hoping they have a few keepers.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    And who makes those scanners .... have a manufacture name and model #? Interested to know.
    I figured someone would ask me for specifics, which I can’t provide. My source for this info came from the controversial talk radio host Steve Quayle, who for many years has talked about them. He claims that the Feds have devices that can see through 4 feet of concrete.

    But I can give you some info and you can make your own conclusions.

    The NYPD and many other Police Departments have openly bragged about their scanners that can look through CLOTHING:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1245663

    http://nypost.com/2013/01/28/blogger...ertz-scanners/

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7287135.stm

    http://www.i4u.com/19200/thruvision-...hrough-clothes

    Here is an article by Forbes.com that describes backscatter x-ray scanners that can view inside of VEHICLES. The manufacture of this particular violation of the Fourth Amendment is American Science & Engineering, in Billerica, Massachusetts:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygree...t-roving-vans/

    This article discusses technology that can scan through WALLS:

    http://www.whale.to/b/rifat.html

    It reads, in part,

    “New technology, involving low frequency microwaves and RF, has enabled devices to be built which can scan through walls and look inside peoples' bodies like X-rays. This enables security personnel to see a target in his own home and to track him throughout the house. Further to this, being able to see inside the victim's head, would allow computer controlled targeting of specific brain centres in the victim's brain, even when he was walking around the house.”

    And this discusses cameras that can see through WALLS:

    http://news.discovery.com/tech/gear-...ght-130314.htm

    This Popular Science article discusses a scanner called the TiaLinx Eagle, which the military is using to see through up to 8 inches of CONCRETE. Claiming that “these hand-held scanners can look through concrete as if it were glass“:

    The article reads,

    “The models deploying with the troops to Afghanistan can see up to 20 feet behind an eight-inch-thick concrete wall, and identify whether or not there are any people on the other side.”

    http://www.popsci.com/technology/art...RmTMpEv5Q6u.99

    http://www.popsci.com/technology/art...rs-afghanistan

    This article talks about scanning a person behind a one-foot-thick brick wall:

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-574...through-walls/

    Business Insider also has reported on military scanners:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/new-s...-walls-2011-10

    And they even have DRONES that can see through walls;

    http://americablog.com/2013/02/stalk...gh-walls.html#

    And this article claims that some cops have “Robo-cop headsets” that can look through walls:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...elease-it.html

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn that DARPA has developed scanners that can see through concrete that fits inside of contact lenses.
    Last edited by Augustin; 11-16-2013 at 06:59 PM.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin
    Colo. Rev. Stat. §16-3-103(1) reads
    "Stopping of suspect. (1) A peace officer may stop any person who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime and may require him to give his name and address, identification if available, and an explanation of his actions.
    ... The stopping shall not constitute an arrest."
    Taking those in reverse order, it doesn't matter what the statute says.
    Court decisions have said that if the person does not feel free to leave they are under arrest.
    And while they do have an ID statute, it's just like most others in that it only applies to people whom the officer has RAS of committing a crime.

    Once under arrest (for refusing to produce a physical ID card) the cops had the right to search your vehicle. Any contraband found is therefore admissible against you.
    But since open carry (or indeed, any carry outside of circumstances where a license is required) is not RAS of a crime they had no lawful reason / authority to stop & detain him, let alone demand ID or steal & search his property.

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin
    some cops have hi-tech scanners that can detect firearms inside of a dwelling or a vehicle.... there is always the chance that the cops will try to bust him again by catching him with a prohibited weapon.
    Again, they'd have to have RAS that he was temporarily prohibited from possessing a firearm & RAS that he was possessing a firearm, in order to get the search warrant to use their fancy scanner on his home.
    For the car they can just make up another bogus charge, stop him, and do another illegal search of him & the car.
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