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Thread: Fredericksburg Police: "Less Lethal Force" policy authorized for 'non-compliance'

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    Fredericksburg Police: "Less Lethal Force" policy authorized for 'non-compliance'

    This seems disconcerting. What if the LEO 'requests' you hand over your OC'd firearm, and you refuse?

    Fredericksburg Police launch internal investigation after apparent 42 second Laser incident
    Fredericksburg police are conducting an internal investigation into a Saturday night incident in which a suspect appeared to be tasered for more than 40 consecutive seconds.

    The incident occurred about 7:20 p.m. near the corner of Hanover and Caroline streets in downtown Fredericksburg, police spokeswoman Natatia Bledsoe said.

    ...

    The Buick driver had run from the scene when police arrived, but bystanders had attempted to detain the passenger, who was still in the area when the first officer arrived. The passenger is also the Buick owner, police said.

    Police said the man was belligerent and threatened to hurt those who called police, but no one was injured.

    A video taken by someone at the scene and later posted on news and social media websites begins with a man—the Buick’s passenger—lying on a sidewalk surrounded by a small crowd.

    A police officer was apparently trying to question him when the man got up and bolted.

    He got only a few feet before dropping to the ground again after an officer apparently used a Taser on him. The sound of the Taser continues for about 42 seconds as the face-down man shrieks in pain and yells out, “Stop it! Stop!”

    ...

    Bledsoe would not comment when asked if the Taser was properly deployed, saying the investigation is ongoing. However, she supplied a copy of the city department’s use of force policy when it was requested.

    Under the directive, officers are authorized to use less lethal force to:

    Defend themselves or others from assaults and other threats.

    Arrest, detain, subdue, control, and/or restrain a noncompliant (active resistance or active aggression) suspect.

    Prevent the escape of a suspect.

    Bring an unlawful or dangerous situation safely and effectively under control.

    The policy states: “As with the use of deadly force, officers contemplating the use of non-deadly force shall apply a standard of objective reasonableness, basing any decision to use force on the totality of the circumstances known to them at the time. . . . Officers need not select the least amount of force that can be used, but must select a level of force that is reasonable for the given circumstances.”
    I wonder how much leeway LEOs would have given the apparently ambiguity of the language.

    How broadly construed would "active resistance" be?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    This seems disconcerting. What if the LEO 'requests' you hand over your OC'd firearm, and you refuse?

    Fredericksburg Police launch internal investigation after apparent 42 second Laser incident


    I wonder how much leeway LEOs would have given the apparently ambiguity of the language.

    How broadly construed would "active resistance" be?
    The story isn't very well researched. My Taser is a model M26, one of the older Tasers with higher amperage than what they're using in some departments. some use the X26 because it's smaller and uses less amperage which is less likely to kill....but it uses a 10 second cycle because it's weaker.

    The switch isn't momentary, when you deploy it a timer starts and the taser will fire a full 5 to 10 second cycle before cutting off.

    The Tasee can get up after one cycle although he's a little groggy usually, but a second or even a 3rd cycle is often used. The alternative is to kick the guy to keep him down. That'll give the papers something to buzz about

    The only way the cop can cut the timer off is to switch the taser off which obviously the officer did if there was a 42 second sound. That sound wouldn't have been continuous though because it has to be fired again to start the new cycle.

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    The false premise is that police can authorize themselves something.

    Just like any other branch of government, they only have the authority granted.

    Until a state constitutional amendment or bill authorizes police to use elctro-torture pain compliance devices, they're acting without authority in using them. Same for their department purporting to "authorize" using less-lethal weapons.

    One only needs to know that these things were once called non-lethal devices, and then asked why the terminology was changed. Ask what is covered up by the terminology change. Ask why the Orwellian term less-lethal? (If you're dead, you're dead. How can something be less lethal?)

    Not everybody dies from a baton strike on the head, yet baton strikes to the head are considered lethal force. Why wouldn't a device that has killed numerous people not be considered lethal in the same way?
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-13-2013 at 09:43 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    The false premise is that police can authorize themselves something.

    Just like any other branch of government, they only have the authority granted.

    Until a state constitutional amendment or bill authorizes police to use elctro-torture pain compliance devices, they're acting without authority in using them. Same for their department purporting to "authorize" using less-lethal weapons.

    One only needs to know that these things were once called non-lethal devices, and then asked why the terminology was changed. Ask what is covered up by the terminology change. Ask why the Orwellian term less-lethal? (If you're dead, you're dead. How can something be less lethal?)

    Not everybody dies from a baton strike on the head, yet baton strikes to the head are considered lethal force. Why wouldn't a device that has killed numerous people not be considered lethal in the same way?
    Does everthing need to be regulated - defined in legal terminalogy?

    Lethal > less lethal = less likely to have terminal results. It is matter of probability. There is no question that I would prefer being "stunned" than to being shot - of course reasoning/logic/talikng would be better still.

    I see some conflict in how results are obtained when departments/agencies determine what tools or procedures are "authorized." Virginia is a Dillon Rule state (must be authorized by law) vs anything not restricted is legal. We work to determine a balance, not always in a totally exceptable way.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Does everthing need to be regulated - defined in legal terminalogy?

    Lethal > less lethal = less likely to have terminal results. It is matter of probability. There is no question that I would prefer being "stunned" than to being shot - of course reasoning/logic/talikng would be better still.

    I see some conflict in how results are obtained when departments/agencies determine what tools or procedures are "authorized." Virginia is a Dillon Rule state (must be authorized by law) vs anything not restricted is legal. We work to determine a balance, not always in a totally exceptable way.
    Readers should understand that this moderator recently locked a thread because of "ongoing" attempts to portray police in a bad light. The spectacular absurdity being the police officer in that incident was too obviously out of line--shot the crazy guy who was just standing in his driveway and made no threatening moves or gestures. That is to say, this moderator locked a thread where the cop really was bad and there was home security video to prove it.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Readers should understand that this moderator recently locked a thread because of "ongoing" attempts to portray police in a bad light. The spectacular absurdity being the police officer in that incident was too obviously out of line--shot the crazy guy who was just standing in his driveway and made no threatening moves or gestures. That is to say, this moderator locked a thread where the cop really was bad and there was home security video to prove it.
    Why don't you get a new song citizen. I'm tired of that tune over and over!
    Last edited by peter nap; 11-14-2013 at 08:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Does everything need to be regulated - defined in legal terminology?

    Lethal > less lethal = less likely to have terminal results. It is matter of probability. There is no question that I would prefer being "stunned" than to being shot - of course reasoning/logic/talking would be better still.

    I see some conflict in how results are obtained when departments/agencies determine what tools or procedures are "authorized." Virginia is a Dillon Rule state (must be authorized by law) vs anything not restricted is legal. We work to determine a balance, not always in a totally exceptable way.
    Yes, every thing the state does in the name of the law must be codified in a particular law. Far too often "department policy" is used in-lieu of a law. Department policy is the escape route for idiot cops. Department policies should cover employment related issues, like personal grooming standards, what porn sites are approved for view on department computing assets, which doughnut shops are approved for patronizing, stuff like that.

    The jury is not "still out" on the lethal consequences of tazing the human body, people have died from getting tased and thus the taser is a lethal weapon.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Why don't you get a new song citizen. I'm tired of that tune over and over!
    Don't be too hard on him Peter. When one starts a dog or cat fight, they tend to use the tools at which they excel.
    http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=cat+screeching+&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz35
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-14-2013 at 09:15 AM. Reason: speeling
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Don't be too hard on him Peter. When one starts a dog or cat fight, they tend to use the tools at which they excel.
    http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=cat+screeching+&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz35
    This ain't a link to a song ! lol

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLG2jaVdUMo

    Better link to your thoughts?

    Nothing wrong 'bout citing a specific case of police impropriety ... what the facts of the instance is may point to a proper section of the forum to post in ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Why don't you get a new song citizen. I'm tired of that tune over and over!
    (chuckle)

    Which song?

    And, if I get a new song on that subject, will you get a new song on P4P?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    (chuckle)

    Which song?
    Bottle of wine or how great I art....take your pick!

    will you get a new song on P4P?
    I'm writing new verses!
    Last edited by peter nap; 11-14-2013 at 08:04 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Bottle of wine or how great I art....take your pick!
    That counts as a double.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Don't be too hard on him Peter. When one starts a dog or cat fight, they tend to use the tools at which they excel.
    http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=cat+screeching+&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz35
    Penalty Flag!

    Violation of Rule #6. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. We expect the moderator to moderate his postings and set the behavior he sternly expects all others to follow!

    The rules are the rules!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanB View Post
    Penalty Flag!

    Violation of Rule #6. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. We expect the moderator to moderate his postings and set the behavior he sternly expects all others to follow!

    The rules are the rules!
    I thought it was a pretty moderate response since he was just attacked for the umtheenth time. Mine was a violation of rule 6 which I've already caught thunder over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Bottle of wine or how great I art....take your pick!
    Oh, no. I would want to sing something I know you would personally appreciate.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sLR0vgpeWI


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, no. I would want to sing something I know you would personally appreciate.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sLR0vgpeWI


    That starts Saturday. The Chinese restaurants appreciate my contributions to their buffets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    that starts saturday. The chinese restaurants appreciate my contributions to their buffets.
    lol!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanB View Post
    Penalty Flag!

    Violation of Rule #6. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. We expect the moderator to moderate his postings and set the behavior he sternly expects all others to follow!

    The rules are the rules!
    Really? You see a violation when the poster in question makes repeated and prolonged attacks because the rules were not defined his way, to his satisfaction, even after having been instructed how to file a grievance. It was noted that he could ask for interpretation by John.

    Such posts are not unlike the referred to cat - the screeching is mildly irritating, but of no major import. Sometimes I will use a little humor to soften my response - I thought the cat recording was funny - Sorry you didn't see it that way.


    Please return to the topic of the thread.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-14-2013 at 10:25 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Really? You see a violation when the poster in question makes repeated and prolonged attacks because the rules were not defined his way, to his satisfaction, even after having been instructed how to file a grievance. It was noted that he could ask for interpretation by John.

    Such posts are not unlike the referred to cat - the screeching is mildly irritating, but of no major import. Sometimes I will use a little humor to soften my response - I thought the cat recording was funny - Sorry you didn't see it that way.


    Please return to the topic of the thread.
    QFT. Moderator is rationalizing his rule violation.

    Readers need only look to post #4 to see which cat started the fur-pulling. Readers might also note that post #4 dodged a couple things.

    Now, lets return to the thread topic. We'll see if the mod will do that without further comment.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-14-2013 at 10:30 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    QFT. Moderator is rationalizing his rule violation.

    Readers need only look to post #4 to see which cat started the fur-pulling. Readers might also note that post #4 dodged a couple things.

    Now, lets return to the thread topic. We'll see if the mod will do that without further comment.
    This from the person that would be King Moderator if only he could make the rules. Note that I respond publicly when insulted/attacked publicly, especially when the user denies to listen privately.

    Post #4 contains no personal attack unless he finds opinion insulting.

    The beat goes on....and yes he knows what will be next.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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