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Thread: Is the second amendment out of date? live debate this afternoon!

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Is the second amendment out of date? live debate this afternoon!

    http://intelligencesquaredus.org/deb...efulness&tab=2

    It appears there will be a live streamed debate about gun rights today, Professor Alan Dershowitz (Harvard School of Law) and Professor Sanford Levinson (Professor of Law and Government University of Texas) both argue the second amendment is out of date.

    on the opposing side, Eugene Volokh (professor of law, UCLA) and David Kopel argue against... streaming to start 6:45 eastern time (5:45 central, 4:45 mountain, and 3:45 pacific)
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Even if the 2nd amendment did not exist, the 9th amendment would also cover our RKBA.

    Of course, the goofy notion of incorporation would then come into play.

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    Thanks. I'll be there. I am a fan of FORA.TV and the brilliant Eugene Volokh and Dave Kopel. I've asked FORA.TV to be available on ROKU. FORA.TV carries also lectures by N. N. Taleb.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Starting now!

    #gunsdebate

    also streaming on some NPR stations
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

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    Regular Member Brace's Avatar
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    "Let's ignore the statistics and trends and math and analysis and focus on the fact that death exists and is bad. Common sense."

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    Regular Member Brace's Avatar
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    I need a much bigger gun collection.

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    Is it too late for a "When are they going to be intelligent?" joke?
    I carry everywhere because crime doesn't make appointments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brace View Post
    I need a much bigger gun collection.
    This is always true .. so I do not need to know your collection size ....

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    Link URL to recorded debate.

    http://fora.tv/2013/11/14/Debate_The...Its_Usefulness

    Dearth-o'-witz is the bandwagon's horse, playing to the peculiar audience.

    I enjoyed the pre-event survey results being so thoroughly buried; 46,000 AGAINST the resolution, versus 700 FOR the resolution.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 11-15-2013 at 08:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    http://fora.tv/2013/11/14/Debate_The...Its_Usefulness

    Dearth-o'-witz is the bandwagon's horse, playing to the peculiar audience.

    I enjoyed the pre-event survey results being so thoroughly buried; 46,000 AGAINST the resolution, versus 700 FOR the resolution.
    This "event" was just like a candy store ... sweet ... have no idea the point of it ... really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    This "event" was just like a candy store ... sweet ... have no idea the point of it ... really.
    These master debaters represent mainstream jurisprudence and on the Second Amendment. None of them even hinted at the roots of self-defense and the Second amendment as lying in the unalienable natural right to life (mentioned in the DoI).

    That concerns me almost enough to ask the ones that will correspond if my understanding of the fundamentals are awry.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I'm sure all of you have read, "The Embarrassing Second Amendment" authored by none other than Sanford Levinson. In this treatise, as I recall, he lends credence to the argument forwarded by people such as ourselves to the value and purpose of this amendment.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    I'm sure all of you have read, "The Embarrassing Second Amendment" authored by none other than Sanford Levinson. In this treatise, as I recall, he lends credence to the argument forwarded by people such as ourselves to the value and purpose of this amendment.
    I hadn't, but I have. Thanks for the mention.

    In the subject debate, I was offended by Dearth-O'Witz' unseemly and overweening domination of the PRO argument and wanted to hear more from Levinson.

    About the document itself, I wonder about its copyright status, as the copy I found (reformatted and saved) certainly abuses the original publisher's forbearance.

    Levinson characterizes it as an essay. I went looking in collections of legal treatises and didn't find it there. As I have formatted my PDF from ODT from the HTML on-line, it is only 20 pages.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 11-16-2013 at 09:14 AM.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I watched the entire debate and have a few thoughts about what I saw.

    Levinson would like the federal constitutional amending process to be more simple. I get the impression something like willy-nilly ideas getting consideration for inclusion or exclusion. He also believes it is time for a Constitutional Convention. I cannot imagine something much worse than this in the present socio-political climate of the country. At least he was respectful and subdued.

    Dershowitz lacks basic intelligence and topical knowledge. He also does what is typical of those on his side of the fence do and that is this. Lacking substantive arguments and the ability to rationally present them, he turns to emotional diatribe. I have seen this my entire life and even in my teenage years with these people. His actions essentially defeat any advancement his own position may have enjoyed since emotional responses automatically lose to intelligent and grounded debate.

    Kopel did a good job but tended to get caught up in the "civil rights" argument, in answering to Dershowitz, and fell a little into patronizing that topic. But he certainly did a better job than Dershowitz.

    Volokh was the best of the lot. Rational, prepared, not swayed by emotional outpourings, and knowledgeable. He wins among the four of them.

    The moderator generally did a very good job of trying to keep things on topic and moving. He was fine.

    The audience was very skewed to the left. This should come as no surprise since the debate took place in NYC. One has to wonder what may have been the audience makeup had the debate been held in some other city better representing the core of the nation.

    The Second Amendment. This amendment mentions nothing about self defense, about hunting, or about protection against a tyrannical government. It doesn't need to do this. All of these were understood and part of living at the time. No one in their right mind would have raise the idea that self defense was to be constrained accept in the most extreme cases. Or that hunting was to be tightly controlled. Or that the purpose of an armed population was the best insurance against despotism. All of these factors were understood and considered to be the norm. That is why these and other factors are not enumerated in the Second Amendment. And then the issue of guns kept coming up as this relates to this amendment.

    Nowhere in the Second Amendment is there a reference to firearms. The word "arms" is used which is a far more encompassing word that guns or firearms. A shovel can be an arm, as can a knife or a spear or a pretty much any other tool put to such use. The Framers knew this and they also knew that an "arm" was a weapon capable of being carried on or about the person. Kopel and Volokh should have put Dershowitz in his place with this factual information and not let him rant on about guns.

    Oh well, there goes two hours.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    I watched the entire debate and have a few thoughts about what I saw. [ ... ] Oh well, there goes two hours.
    That's a good thing about retirement - more time than money. I enjoy everything Volokh does. Did you catch the moderators mention of his - shhh - IQ? And he reminds me favorably of my best math teacher Emmanuil Agrest, MA, Moscow State University, PhD, Mathematics & Physics Soviet Academy of Science, previously department head Sukhumi S.U.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    That's a good thing about retirement - more time than money. I enjoy everything Volokh does. Did you catch the moderators mention of his - shhh - IQ? And he reminds me favorably of my best math teacher Emmanuil Agrest, MA, Moscow State University, PhD, Mathematics & Physics Soviet Academy of Science, previously department head Sukhumi S.U.
    Yes I did. I believe he said it was 206.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Yes I did. I believe he said it was 206.
    Yep. Smarter'n me! Almost as far from me as I am from mean.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Brace's Avatar
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    Different tests have different metrics, and no standard test even goes that high, so I wonder what that 206 even pertains to. Past the second standard deviation there isn't any real correlation to ability, except that people with a higher g factor generally learn the same things faster.

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    Assuming a typical IQ test, the mean is 100 and the SD is 15 or 20. That puts here five to seven standard deviations above the mean. In a normal distribution, there are so few people in those ranges (likely in the millionths) as to make precise assessments of IQ impossible. I'd say anything more than three standard deviations from the mean has so much potential error as to warrant referring to such instances as "three or more standard deviations above/below the mean."

    IOW, IQs above 145 (160 if the SD is 20) or below 55 (40) are best referred to as 145+, 160+, 55-, or 40-. That still either puts you in the top 0.3% or is something you have no hope of ever understanding.


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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I've been told by "experts" that I have a higher than average IQ. I asked them what was average, and I just can't remember what the answer was. I guess there is a difference in learning and retaining.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Assuming a typical IQ test, the mean is 100 and the SD is 15 or 20. That puts here five to seven standard deviations above the mean. In a normal distribution, there are so few people in those ranges (likely in the millionths) as to make precise assessments of IQ impossible. I'd say anything more than three standard deviations from the mean has so much potential error as to warrant referring to such instances as "three or more standard deviations above/below the mean."

    IOW, IQs above 145 (160 if the SD is 20) or below 55 (40) are best referred to as 145+, 160+, 55-, or 40-. That still either puts you in the top 0.3% or is something you have no hope of ever understanding.


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    When I was in junior and senior high school in the early to mid 60's, they administered IQ tests. The highest one I can remember in our school was a guy with 155. I knew him and he was kind of a loner. He and I got along well. In fact he contacted me about four years ago for some information about the second rock band I was in back then.

    Like you, I am suspect of extremely high scores on these tests. While it is not difficult to observe basic intelligence levels in people, it is hard to quantify them and come up with some standard scoring methods.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    When I was in junior and senior high school in the early to mid 60's, they administered IQ tests. The highest one I can remember in our school was a guy with 155. I knew him and he was kind of a loner. He and I got along well. In fact he contacted me about four years ago for some information about the second rock band I was in back then.

    Like you, I am suspect of extremely high scores on these tests. While it is not difficult to observe basic intelligence levels in people, it is hard to quantify them and come up with some standard scoring methods.
    Probably the best and most approachable primer is The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life by Richard Herrnstein & Charles Murray (Free Press 1994) (Charles Murray still writes. Herrnstein died before publication) and its Appendixes; 'Statistics for People Who Are Sure They Can't Learn Statistics', 'Technical Issues Regarding the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth', 'Technical Issues Regarding the Armed Forces Qualification Test as a Measure of IQ', [ ... ] , 'The Evolution of Affirmative Action in the Workplace'.

    There is also the very popular Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, the Meyers-Briggs Type Indicator, and more.

    It's difficult to be a good sharpshooter, but there are those. It's difficult to be a psychologist, but there are those too.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 11-18-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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    Psychologist and psychiatrists are nothing more than voodoo. Ask yourself this question:

    A voodoo shrink did not, in your opinion, give you your monies worth, as a "good consumer" you want your money back. The voodoo shrink disagrees, who is the state gunna believe?

    Remember, a voodoo shrink can use the power of his opinion to have you committed and thus be disbarred form exercising your 2A right. Of course you may be able to find another voodoo shrink who agrees with you that you got screwed by that other voodoo shrink.

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    Dershowitz seems to be disturbed by the militia concept more than the concept of the individual right to keep & bear arms. In other words he argues for dumping the militia notion because it is an "anachronism of history" .

    With the militia out of the picture he argues that the people's right can then be considered devoid of the implied firearm presumption associated with militia duty. Nice try - you Leftist dirt-bag .

    The 13 colonies had good reason to distrust the new central U.S. government's disposition towards internal divisions , and they harbored absolutely no faith whatsoever that it could defend the states in the event of external threats.

    Both of these security concerns still exist today.-especially given the current circumstances in Washington , D.C. If Mexico decided to invade, and occupy the Rio Grande Valley of Texas North to the Nueces River , it would takes weeks,and months for ground forces from Ft. Hood, and Ft. Carson to halt the invasion. Only militia resistance would initially be available to confront the invading forces. A Texas militia response backed up by regular U.S. forces would only be capable of stalling out the Mexican advance at the Hill Country line ( Boerne, New Braunfels, Gonzales). (Yes.... this scenario has been given some serious consideration by the Texas militia.)

    People that are skeptical of such a scenario ignore history.
    Last edited by rushcreek2; 11-18-2013 at 10:04 AM.

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    An implicit measure of IQ is the ability to use objective systems, a correlation.

    Read The Open Society and Its Enemies and then The Poverty of Historicism. History is written by the victors and is not a logic syllogism.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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