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Is the second amendment out of date? live debate this afternoon!

EMNofSeattle

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http://intelligencesquaredus.org/de...o-bear-arms-has-outlived-its-usefulness&tab=2

It appears there will be a live streamed debate about gun rights today, Professor Alan Dershowitz (Harvard School of Law) and Professor Sanford Levinson (Professor of Law and Government University of Texas) both argue the second amendment is out of date.

on the opposing side, Eugene Volokh (professor of law, UCLA) and David Kopel argue against... streaming to start 6:45 eastern time (5:45 central, 4:45 mountain, and 3:45 pacific)
 

davidmcbeth

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Even if the 2nd amendment did not exist, the 9th amendment would also cover our RKBA.

Of course, the goofy notion of incorporation would then come into play.
 

Brace

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"Let's ignore the statistics and trends and math and analysis and focus on the fact that death exists and is bad. Common sense."
 

davidmcbeth

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SouthernBoy

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I'm sure all of you have read, "The Embarrassing Second Amendment" authored by none other than Sanford Levinson. In this treatise, as I recall, he lends credence to the argument forwarded by people such as ourselves to the value and purpose of this amendment.
 

SouthernBoy

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I watched the entire debate and have a few thoughts about what I saw.

Levinson would like the federal constitutional amending process to be more simple. I get the impression something like willy-nilly ideas getting consideration for inclusion or exclusion. He also believes it is time for a Constitutional Convention. I cannot imagine something much worse than this in the present socio-political climate of the country. At least he was respectful and subdued.

Dershowitz lacks basic intelligence and topical knowledge. He also does what is typical of those on his side of the fence do and that is this. Lacking substantive arguments and the ability to rationally present them, he turns to emotional diatribe. I have seen this my entire life and even in my teenage years with these people. His actions essentially defeat any advancement his own position may have enjoyed since emotional responses automatically lose to intelligent and grounded debate.

Kopel did a good job but tended to get caught up in the "civil rights" argument, in answering to Dershowitz, and fell a little into patronizing that topic. But he certainly did a better job than Dershowitz.

Volokh was the best of the lot. Rational, prepared, not swayed by emotional outpourings, and knowledgeable. He wins among the four of them.

The moderator generally did a very good job of trying to keep things on topic and moving. He was fine.

The audience was very skewed to the left. This should come as no surprise since the debate took place in NYC. One has to wonder what may have been the audience makeup had the debate been held in some other city better representing the core of the nation.

The Second Amendment. This amendment mentions nothing about self defense, about hunting, or about protection against a tyrannical government. It doesn't need to do this. All of these were understood and part of living at the time. No one in their right mind would have raise the idea that self defense was to be constrained accept in the most extreme cases. Or that hunting was to be tightly controlled. Or that the purpose of an armed population was the best insurance against despotism. All of these factors were understood and considered to be the norm. That is why these and other factors are not enumerated in the Second Amendment. And then the issue of guns kept coming up as this relates to this amendment.

Nowhere in the Second Amendment is there a reference to firearms. The word "arms" is used which is a far more encompassing word that guns or firearms. A shovel can be an arm, as can a knife or a spear or a pretty much any other tool put to such use. The Framers knew this and they also knew that an "arm" was a weapon capable of being carried on or about the person. Kopel and Volokh should have put Dershowitz in his place with this factual information and not let him rant on about guns.

Oh well, there goes two hours.
 

SouthernBoy

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That's a good thing about retirement - more time than money. I enjoy everything Volokh does. Did you catch the moderators mention of his - shhh - IQ? And he reminds me favorably of my best math teacher Emmanuil Agrest, MA, Moscow State University, PhD, Mathematics & Physics Soviet Academy of Science, previously department head Sukhumi S.U.

Yes I did. I believe he said it was 206.
 

Brace

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Different tests have different metrics, and no standard test even goes that high, so I wonder what that 206 even pertains to. Past the second standard deviation there isn't any real correlation to ability, except that people with a higher g factor generally learn the same things faster.
 

eye95

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Assuming a typical IQ test, the mean is 100 and the SD is 15 or 20. That puts here five to seven standard deviations above the mean. In a normal distribution, there are so few people in those ranges (likely in the millionths) as to make precise assessments of IQ impossible. I'd say anything more than three standard deviations from the mean has so much potential error as to warrant referring to such instances as "three or more standard deviations above/below the mean."

IOW, IQs above 145 (160 if the SD is 20) or below 55 (40) are best referred to as 145+, 160+, 55-, or 40-. That still either puts you in the top 0.3% or is something you have no hope of ever understanding.


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OC for ME

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I've been told by "experts" that I have a higher than average IQ. I asked them what was average, and I just can't remember what the answer was. I guess there is a difference in learning and retaining.
 

SouthernBoy

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Assuming a typical IQ test, the mean is 100 and the SD is 15 or 20. That puts here five to seven standard deviations above the mean. In a normal distribution, there are so few people in those ranges (likely in the millionths) as to make precise assessments of IQ impossible. I'd say anything more than three standard deviations from the mean has so much potential error as to warrant referring to such instances as "three or more standard deviations above/below the mean."

IOW, IQs above 145 (160 if the SD is 20) or below 55 (40) are best referred to as 145+, 160+, 55-, or 40-. That still either puts you in the top 0.3% or is something you have no hope of ever understanding.


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When I was in junior and senior high school in the early to mid 60's, they administered IQ tests. The highest one I can remember in our school was a guy with 155. I knew him and he was kind of a loner. He and I got along well. In fact he contacted me about four years ago for some information about the second rock band I was in back then.

Like you, I am suspect of extremely high scores on these tests. While it is not difficult to observe basic intelligence levels in people, it is hard to quantify them and come up with some standard scoring methods.
 

OC for ME

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Psychologist and psychiatrists are nothing more than voodoo. Ask yourself this question:

A voodoo shrink did not, in your opinion, give you your monies worth, as a "good consumer" you want your money back. The voodoo shrink disagrees, who is the state gunna believe?

Remember, a voodoo shrink can use the power of his opinion to have you committed and thus be disbarred form exercising your 2A right. Of course you may be able to find another voodoo shrink who agrees with you that you got screwed by that other voodoo shrink.
 

rushcreek2

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Dershowitz seems to be disturbed by the militia concept more than the concept of the individual right to keep & bear arms. In other words he argues for dumping the militia notion because it is an "anachronism of history" .

With the militia out of the picture he argues that the people's right can then be considered devoid of the implied firearm presumption associated with militia duty. Nice try - you Leftist dirt-bag .

The 13 colonies had good reason to distrust the new central U.S. government's disposition towards internal divisions , and they harbored absolutely no faith whatsoever that it could defend the states in the event of external threats.

Both of these security concerns still exist today.-especially given the current circumstances in Washington , D.C. If Mexico decided to invade, and occupy the Rio Grande Valley of Texas North to the Nueces River , it would takes weeks,and months for ground forces from Ft. Hood, and Ft. Carson to halt the invasion. Only militia resistance would initially be available to confront the invading forces. A Texas militia response backed up by regular U.S. forces would only be capable of stalling out the Mexican advance at the Hill Country line ( Boerne, New Braunfels, Gonzales). (Yes.... this scenario has been given some serious consideration by the Texas militia.)

People that are skeptical of such a scenario ignore history.
 
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Brace

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I've been told by "experts" that I have a higher than average IQ. I asked them what was average, and I just can't remember what the answer was. I guess there is a difference in learning and retaining.

Average is always 100 by definition.

It's difficult to be a good sharpshooter, but there are those. It's difficult to be a psychologist, but there are those too.

The trouble is that good psychologists, like good doctors, shoot upward in their professions to positions of prestige and high income like heads of departments (or surgeons in the case of doctors), leaving the marginal to clinical medicine (IE the place where the average person has most interaction with them) and to a lesser extent, to take over the academic study of less "sexy" issues. You seem to be talking about psychometrics in general rather than just IQ also.
 

eye95

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Average is always 100 by definition...

That is the mean chosen for all IQ tests of which I am aware. However, anyone can design a scale (and someone likely has) that sets the mean at some other arbitrary number.

Never say "always." ;)


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