How many gun owners support 'Universal Background Checks?'

Beretta92FSLady said:

"She is incapable of rational discourse..." blah, blah, blah. Please, show me what is not rational about my statements.

Just one example, point out what is not Rational about this statement: "You do not own Property, you merely occupy it; only the Government owns Property."--one more: Rights are not Rights, they are Privileges; Your Rights are contingent on a Document asserting your Rights are Rights, which makes those Rights, Privileges.--any Declaration of Rights is a bestowment of Rights, basically, they are Privileges, they are sanctioned by the Authority to Power. You can call the BoR, and Affirmation...it's the same thing as bestowing, period. Why would you have to Affirm that a person has God Given Rights...if they're God Given, they are just there, they require no Affirmation, no Declaration.

I look forward to you proving my statements irrational; interestingly, you didn't accuse me of being wrong, just irrational...your ad hominem attack reveals you have little or ZERO substantive ammunition to refute the Substance of my statements.

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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. And, there is this little gem: ...nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am2

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WalkingWolf said:

I just usually wait a few days for you to contradict yourself...

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Primus said:

Where do those rights come from? Not saying I disagree just curious where you say those rights come from. I say they come from the fact that the .gov has passed laws against this behavior. Do you think it's a God given right to have property? (Serious question)

I tried asking this before but it got lost in the sauce. If I stole your TV, what right am I infringing? It's not a Natural Right. Is it a Con. right? A God Given right? I asked because it matters.

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Primus said:

Doesn't mention property in that line.... life liberty and pursuit of happiness...

I have to agree with "owning property". The .gov doesn't own (just one example) a toy I buy from China. Gov. doesn't even know I have it. I am then free to smash it, burn it, give it away, etc. etc.

Maybe we are using "property" in different terms. I meant property as in an item you can buy or make. I believe you are using property as in land. If that's the case then yes there's some truth to what your saying about the .gov owning it.

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OC for ME said:

It usually does not take very long at all. typically liberals will contradict themselves before they take their next breath. The liberal poster above is no exception.

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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. And, there is this little gem: ...nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am2

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Beretta92FSLady said:

Contingent Factor, the Constitution, written by Males, asserting some Thing to be the case:

If the Constitution did not exist, then we would not have those so-called God Given Rights... You can call it a Limitation On Government, whatever you Will, it is a Construct, period. Privileges...I mean Rights, are subject to the Government bestowing them upon you.--I don't agree with this, just that it is.

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sudden valley gunner said:

Fallacy alert, it matters not who wrote them you can either counter their argument or you can't. Adhominem isn't a counter argument.

Nope we would have such rights, the constitution does not grant any rights. All of these exist with or without government.

How does the magic of government where it can hand out rights come to be, how does government come to be?

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WalkingWolf said:

You are not a statist, statists are about control using government. You are though a member of the entitled, probably permanently where your life is based on government controls. In older times people such as yourself were called GOOD subjects.

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Beretta92FSLady said:

Then the Appeals to Authority (Founding Fathers), is a fallacy. Thank you for pointing that out.

No Ad Hominem here, just point out they were Males.

No, they do not exist without the Constitution, nor without the Government.

Government has the Authority to Power; Government is a Collective assertion of Authority to Power. Well, Government is a consolidation of the whole, it's the most effective, and efficient form of collective Social Organization.

I'm holding my breath, waiting for you to call me a Statist. I know you couldn't do it in this post since you were accusing me of engaging in Ad Hominem attacks....this next post is your chance.

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Beretta92FSLady said:

Then the Appeals to Authority (Founding Fathers), is a fallacy. Thank you for pointing that out.

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No Ad Hominem here, just point out they were Males.

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No, they do not exist without the Constitution, nor without the Government.

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Government has the Authority to Power; Government is a Collective assertion of Authority to Power. Well, Government is a consolidation of the whole, it's the most effective, and efficient form of collective Social Organization.

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I'm holding my breath, waiting for you to call me a Statist. I know you couldn't do it in this post since you were accusing me of engaging in Ad Hominem attacks....this next post is your chance.

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WalkingWolf said:

You are not a statist, statists are about control using government. You are though a member of the entitled, probably permanently where your life is based on government controls. In older times people such as yourself were called subjects.

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stealthyeliminator said:

Who really tries to defend contradicting oneself by saying that the universe is a paradox? That is certainly not logical by any common standard.

Edit: removed derogatory statement, trying to be a nicer person.

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OC for ME said:

Identifying those who wrote the Founding documents is not appealing to authority. Another liberal deflection. The Founders were the authorities of their day where preserving liberty is concerned. Liberals hate the free exercise of liberty by those that do not bow down to Liberal Ideology.

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Beretta92FSLady said:

SNIP...Government has the Authority to Power; Government is a Collective assertion of Authority to Power. Well, Government is a consolidation of the whole, it's the most effective, and efficient form of collective Social Organization.

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Beretta92FSLady said:

How are things at the Plantation these days?--not as profitable, I'm sure, as it used to be.

Yes, the Founder's ARE the Authorities of their day. We are at this day, today, 11/20/2013. Quit looking back...those days where Ladies were Ladies, Men were MEN, slaves were slaves,--I could go on, but I won't.

Obviously, we have Evolved technologically, socially, etc. What worked then--I would argue what worked then didn't work very well--does not work now. What will work now is what will work now, not then.

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JTHunter said:

Beretta92FSLady - you need to remember the line "We hold these truths to be self-evident - - -". This means that the rights the Founding Fathers are discussing already existed! They are just listing some of them for the purposes of clarification.

Governments only have the power that people surrender to them. Governments abuse those powers at their own risk. That is why some governments get overthrown and the people form a new government which is what is stated in the Declaration.

See below (highlights added):

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices (sound familiar??), and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

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Beretta92FSLady said:

How are things at the Plantation these days?--not as profitable, I'm sure, as it used to be.

Yes, the Founder's ARE the Authorities of their day. We are at this day, today, 11/20/2013. Quit looking back...those days where Ladies were Ladies, Men were MEN, slaves were slaves,--I could go on, but I won't.

Obviously, we have Evolved technologically, socially, etc. What worked then--I would argue what worked then didn't work very well--does not work now. What will work now is what will work now, not then.

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Primus said:

You do realize this is the Decleration of Independance right? So it's a great foundation but holds NO law. It was some ideas written down by guys. I can write you a letter saying I have the right to purple underwear, doesn't make it law.

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Primus said:

You do realize this is the Decleration of Independance right? So it's a great foundation but holds NO law. It was some ideas written down by guys. I can write you a letter saying I have the right to purple underwear, doesn't make it law.

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