Then shoot me... If I'm stealing your money by threat of force then shoot me...

EMNofSeattle · Nov 21, 2013

sudden valley gunner said:
This line was brought up in another thread, it was off topic but I think a good point to discuss.

It was in response that the poster believes he has a right to education. To which it was pointed out yes he does but not the right to steal from others for it.

Already you're twisting my argument, I said EVERYONE has a right to education. very different.

Yet he isn't the only one saying this I have heard this line in other political discussion not on this board that I am part of.

I would hope I'm not the only one saying that

My response is and has been to that if people feel this strongly about it why don't they come and personally take the funds for their education, healthcare, food, etc themselves.

It's happened many times throughout history. many revolutions have taken place as a result of contempt of the aristocracy or the wealthy. pure capitalism tends to concentrate wealth into few people, leaving the rest as a permanent subclass of people in a fixed caste. you can look at various revolts throughout history, not even that far out either, as late as 1925 union coal miners in West Virginia banded into a militia and directly attacked their worksites and the Sheriff's office because they weren't getting enough money and safe working conditions. the government dropped bombs from aircraft on these revolting miners.

The truth of the matter is it is threat of force, most people are not voluntarily giving up their hard earned wages they need to support their families, to feed themselves or heavens forbid save up for their elderly years when they no longer can work so as not to be a burden upon their loved ones and the state. The reason they do so is because of the threat of force it is that simple, it is human nature to have a sense of self preservation, we know that if we refuse to comply we die. People can cloak it in what ever terminology and political wrangling they want, we can call the dog shite in our yard many euphemisms the truth of the matter is it's still shite.

wrong, government investment increases people's relative wealth. thus although coercion is yes applied, your life would suck far more without such coercion. what's the going rate for your trade in Uganda right about now?

So again I reiterate if you do not think it's theft then back up your ideology by personally volunteering to go collect what you feel others owe you, don't rely on the armed thugs of the state, or is it because your own sense of self preservation tells you that would be a foolish detrimental thing to do?

it is foolish and detrimental, everyone needs to pay their fair share, but it would be pointless to collect money to fund a civil society by large angry mobs with pitchforks burning your house down every 15th of April.

Furthermore, I do pay taxes, I have payed for years, I am (barely) in the 53% as far as that goes. I do pay for college tuition also (which is low because the state subsidizes it, as with any public school) I do not collect everything for free as some people have put it.

Primus · Nov 21, 2013

First, I was a bit confused about your initial question if it even is one. Then shoot me.... if I'm stealing your money by threat of force then shoot me...... Please explain. Id that you talking as the .gov who takes your taxes? Or is that a person receiving your taxes through the .gov?

Also, no one has STOLEN anything from me. I gladly pay my taxes. No one has to come to my house to beat me, no one has to threaten me with any "force". I do it because taxation is part of our system (society). You forget we didn't break away to avoid taxes, it was to avoid taxation without a say in how it was being used or how much is taken. Also, we have this crazy freedom of being able to move to different towns, counties, states, to get different tax rates. I'm assuming you vote in your town budget. You get a direct say in your taxes. Sounds rough huh...

Let me ask this question to try and get a better feel for this "threat of force" you always see.

When you go to the coffee shop, you pay for your meal. If you didn't, the .gov would show up and take your information. If they pressed charges, you would get some paperwork in the mail and you would have to go to court. If you didn't a warrant would be issued. So you go to court, if you still didn't pay you could face jail time. The .gov could legally arrest you for not paying for that meal.

So do you pay your meal under the threat of force? Sure the .gov is representing the coffee shop (or any other business) and is "strong arming" you to pay. If you don't agree with this, please explain. If you do agree with that assessment, does that mean you literally do every monetary exchange under this threat? Do you obey every other law (driving laws, tax laws, education laws, etc.) under a threat of force?

WalkingWolf · Nov 21, 2013

The 47% always gladly claim they are happy to pay their taxes... :lol:

EMNofSeattle · Nov 21, 2013

Primus said:
First, I was a bit confused about your initial question if it even is one. Then shoot me.... if I'm stealing your money by threat of force then shoot me...... Please explain. Id that you talking as the .gov who takes your taxes? Or is that a person receiving your taxes through the .gov?

Also, no one has STOLEN anything from me. I gladly pay my taxes. No one has to come to my house to beat me, no one has to threaten me with any "force". I do it because taxation is part of our system (society). You forget we didn't break away to avoid taxes, it was to avoid taxation without a say in how it was being used or how much is taken. Also, we have this crazy freedom of being able to move to different towns, counties, states, to get different tax rates. I'm assuming you vote in your town budget. You get a direct say in your taxes. Sounds rough huh...

Let me ask this question to try and get a better feel for this "threat of force" you always see.

When you go to the coffee shop, you pay for your meal. If you didn't, the .gov would show up and take your information. If they pressed charges, you would get some paperwork in the mail and you would have to go to court. If you didn't a warrant would be issued. So you go to court, if you still didn't pay you could face jail time. The .gov could legally arrest you for not paying for that meal.

So do you pay your meal under the threat of force? Sure the .gov is representing the coffee shop (or any other business) and is "strong arming" you to pay. If you don't agree with this, please explain. If you do agree with that assessment, does that mean you literally do every monetary exchange under this threat? Do you obey every other law (driving laws, tax laws, education laws, etc.) under a threat of force?

the title of the thread comes from a retort I made to SVG.

The 47% always gladly claim they are happy to pay their taxes...

well unless you've seen or audited my tax returns your assumptions are really not that credible now are they?

ron73440 · Nov 21, 2013

Primus said:
First, I was a bit confused about your initial question if it even is one. Then shoot me.... if I'm stealing your money by threat of force then shoot me...... Please explain. Id that you talking as the .gov who takes your taxes? Or is that a person receiving your taxes through the .gov?

Also, no one has STOLEN anything from me. I gladly pay my taxes. No one has to come to my house to beat me, no one has to threaten me with any "force". I do it because taxation is part of our system (society). You forget we didn't break away to avoid taxes, it was to avoid taxation without a say in how it was being used or how much is taken. Also, we have this crazy freedom of being able to move to different towns, counties, states, to get different tax rates. I'm assuming you vote in your town budget. You get a direct say in your taxes. Sounds rough huh...

Let me ask this question to try and get a better feel for this "threat of force" you always see.

When you go to the coffee shop, you pay for your meal. If you didn't, the .gov would show up and take your information. If they pressed charges, you would get some paperwork in the mail and you would have to go to court. If you didn't a warrant would be issued. So you go to court, if you still didn't pay you could face jail time. The .gov could legally arrest you for not paying for that meal.

So do you pay your meal under the threat of force? Sure the .gov is representing the coffee shop (or any other business) and is "strong arming" you to pay. If you don't agree with this, please explain. If you do agree with that assessment, does that mean you literally do every monetary exchange under this threat? Do you obey every other law (driving laws, tax laws, education laws, etc.) under a threat of force?

Who is forcing you to go into the coffee shop to buy a meal?

Who is forcing me to pay into a "retirement plan" when I could do more with the money taken?

How you conflate a purchase and taxes is beyond me.

Primus · Nov 21, 2013

EMNofSeattle said:
the title of the thread comes from a retort I made to SVG.

well unless you've seen or audited my tax returns your assumptions are really not that credible now are they?

Thank youfor the clarification. I was pretty sure he was referring to some other conversation but not being part of that kind of pulls it form context.

WalkingWolf · Nov 21, 2013

EMNofSeattle said:
the title of the thread comes from a retort I made to SVG.

well unless you've seen or audited my tax returns your assumptions are really not that credible now are they?

Did I say you or mention anybody else by SN? There is a old saying about throwing a rock over a fence and the dog that yelps got hit.

Primus · Nov 21, 2013

ron73440 said:
Who is forcing you to go into the coffee shop to buy a meal?

Who is forcing me to pay into a "retirement plan" when I could do more with the money taken?

How you conflate a purchase and taxes is beyond me.

Like I said, use any store. How about gasoline? You pay a tax there too. Is that from the fear of force? Do you pay the gas attendant because of this fear of force from the .gov? And to answer a question with a question really isn't an answer....

77zach · Nov 21, 2013

I'm not against taxes per se, especially sales taxes, as long as people aren't threatened if they refuse to pay. For example, I don't mind the gas taxes since nearly everyone wants to have the option of using the roads, same for reasonable tolls. I wouldn't mind paying a sales tax as long as it didn't go above 1% (more than enough for legitimate government functions). I would never pay a dime of income or property taxes. The government's schools/reeducation camps churn out Primus's at best, Berettalady's at worst. Bulldoze them or sell them into private hands.

Primus · Nov 21, 2013

77zach said:
I'm not against taxes per se, especially sales taxes, as long as people aren't threatened if they refuse to pay. For example, I don't mind the gas taxes since nearly everyone wants to have the option of using the roads, same for reasonable tolls. I wouldn't mind paying a sales tax as long as it didn't go above 1% (more than enough for legitimate government functions). I would never pay a dime of income or property taxes. The government's schools/reeducation camps churn out Primus's at best, Berettalady's at worst. Bulldoze them or sell them into private hands.

Your avoiding the question. It wasn't about taxes. It was about the threat of force for not paying for anything you buy. Taxes are just an example of that.

77zach · Nov 21, 2013

Primus said:
Your avoiding the question. It wasn't about taxes. It was about the threat of force for not paying for anything you buy. Taxes are just an example of that.

Um, no, I didn't. If you need me to spell it out for you, the only thing I get from the state that I'm willing to pay for are the roads and the punishment of force or fraud. Everything else, I don't want, and wouldn't pay for voluntarily. I forced to pay for everything else at gunpoint.

ron73440 · Nov 21, 2013

Primus said:
Like I said, use any store. How about gasoline? You pay a tax there too. Is that from the fear of force? Do you pay the gas attendant because of this fear of force from the .gov? And to answer a question with a question really isn't an answer....

Sometimes it's appropriate to anwer with a question when the question being asked is short on logic.

Who is forcing you to buy gasoline?

I pay it because I want the gasoline, not because I'll get arrested if I don't.

If you don't believe force is involved, don't pay any taxes and let me know how that works out for you.

I know taxation is theft, but because we have a system that lets me vote, I'm stuck with results that I sure as hell did not vote for, but somehow they claim "consent of the governed."

The govt takes more money with each gallon than the evil oil companies make.

http://www.nationalreview.com/exchequer/340191/facts-about-gas-prices-and-oil-profits

EMNofSeattle · Nov 21, 2013

Primus said:
Thank youfor the clarification. I was pretty sure he was referring to some other conversation but not being part of that kind of pulls it form context.

Yep, I like debating him anyway. you should know though, before you debate SVG further, I've met him in person, he's actually a very nice guy. he doesn't seem to oppose all of the government just because, he actually got hosed by the state a few years ago if I remember his story correctly. I actually understand why he doesn't like government that much.......

Citizen · Nov 21, 2013

Primus said:
Your avoiding the question. It wasn't about taxes. It was about the threat of force for not paying for anything you buy. Taxes are just an example of that.

Jeez! This Primus is still making the exact same fallacy he tried to pull and had rebutted in a previous thread.

Does he really think we're that stupid? That at least some of us would recognize the identical tactics and wording from a previous thread and call him on it?

Good lord!

Citizen · Nov 21, 2013

Primus said:
Like I said, use any store. How about gasoline? You pay a tax there too. Is that from the fear of force? Do you pay the gas attendant because of this fear of force from the .gov? And to answer a question with a question really isn't an answer....

Nice try. With the logical fallacies you sling around, you have no standing to criticize others.

Regarding willingness on fuel tax, phhhhht. (That means I reject your argument.)

The sellers pay those taxes and pass them on. You can bet they don't do it willingly. They then pass that on to the consumer. He can't buy it without paying it.

Your argument about threat of force fails because you've selected an inapplicable example. The consumer can either walk or refine his own fuel. Threat of force on the consumer doesn't enter into it. Government has basically removed the opportunity to obtain tax-free fuel.

Nice try. If that was an example of your shining intellect inventing a counter-argument, save us all the trouble and shut up until you can argue something without giant holes in it.

Primus · Nov 21, 2013

EMNofSeattle said:
Yep, I like debating him anyway. you should know though, before you debate SVG further, I've met him in person, he's actually a very nice guy. he doesn't seem to oppose all of the government just because, he actually got hosed by the state a few years ago if I remember his story correctly. I actually understand why he doesn't like government that much.......

It seems like he would be a nice guy. He does a great job of showing the flip side of the coin. We have a opposing views, but I enjoy hearing and seeing his. Not to bash it, but to try and either learn it sway him.

Unfortunately, it seems that guys who believe this strongly have been hosed by the state in some way shape or form and that sucks, the point of a .gov (any kind any size and country) isn't to hose people.

Primus · Nov 21, 2013

Citizen said:
Jeez! This Primus is still making the exact same fallacy he tried to pull and had rebutted in a previous thread.

Does he really think we're that stupid? That at least some of us would recognize the identical tactics and wording from a previous thread and call him on it?

Good lord!

You on the other hand are like my 2 year old niece. You keep following me around and biting my ankles, then screaming and whining when you get slapped in return.

And I quoted your post to prove my point. This post has NOTHING to do with the thread and certainly doesn't contribute even a branch off point of discussion. It's like your Bwahaha stuff.

Sit down and let the adults talk please.

Primus · Nov 21, 2013

Bear with me... starting to get it. Maybe.

I apologize if I was slow on the uptake in the point of this thread. Again, I wasn't there for the initial conversation, so when this one popped up I was missing some aspect. I've since been helped by some of the guys who were in the conversation or who have a similar view point.

If I finally have this correct, the premise is : Taxation is theft. Theft with the threat of force because if you don't pay you will be arrested or killed, etc. etc. It's deemed theft because you (anyone) don't agree to to being taxed.

Am I correct on this premise? I agree somewhat more (maybe a 2 or 3 out of 10), but still see problems with it.

1) You are a willing participant. If you live in Town A that has 90% tax you accept it. You could move to town B that has 2% tax. Guys do it all the time. This premise also applies to States. Don't come to Taxachussetts if you don't want to pay.... I would even go so extreme that if you really hate the taxes, move to Mexico. You can say "I want to stay here". That's a choice. The threat of force is NOT "You must live here and pay taxes." It's IF you live here you must pay x amount of taxes.

2) Even if you choose to stay (stubborn like me) then you have a SAY in your taxes. Remember that pesky .gov shutdown? Partly over people don't want to raise taxes. So you literally have a say i your taxes.

3) There literally is no other method to have this Country. No taxes= No Military

OC for ME · Nov 21, 2013

Taxes, way back in the day, that the fedgov collected to operate and maintain a army and navy came from import and export taxes. In other words, international trade. When you know the history of what a tax is then you will understand the evil that the tax on personal income really is. It is the tax on our labors that will co7uld be killed over. It is the tax on our labors that are a direct affront to liberty.

I buy gas, I am willing to pay the gas tax, it is a use tax. Sales taxes are evil like income taxes, a double tax the sales tax is.

WalkingWolf · Nov 21, 2013

Primus said:
I apologize if I was slow on the uptake in the point of this thread. Again, I wasn't there for the initial conversation, so when this one popped up I was missing some aspect. I've since been helped by some of the guys who were in the conversation or who have a similar view point.

If I finally have this correct, the premise is : Taxation is theft. Theft with the threat of force because if you don't pay you will be arrested or killed, etc. etc. It's deemed theft because you (anyone) don't agree to to being taxed.

Am I correct on this premise? I agree somewhat more (maybe a 2 or 3 out of 10), but still see problems with it.

1) You are a willing participant. If you live in Town A that has 90% tax you accept it. You could move to town B that has 2% tax. Guys do it all the time. This premise also applies to States. Don't come to Taxachussetts if you don't want to pay.... I would even go so extreme that if you really hate the taxes, move to Mexico. You can say "I want to stay here". That's a choice. The threat of force is NOT "You must live here and pay taxes." It's IF you live here you must pay x amount of taxes.

2) Even if you choose to stay (stubborn like me) then you have a SAY in your taxes. Remember that pesky .gov shutdown? Partly over people don't want to raise taxes. So you literally have a say i your taxes.

3) There literally is no other method to have this Country. No taxes= No Military

Sheeesh some people never do their research. If you move to Mexico YOU MUST STILL PAY US INCOME TAXES.

The only way to avoid taxes is earn to little to pay them, or renounce your citizenship, but you have to pay a penalty to do that. You can't get much more force than that. If you refuse you will go to jail.

Then shoot me... If I'm stealing your money by threat of force then shoot me...

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