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Thread: 11-22-63 50 years ago America died a little

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    11-22-63 50 years ago America died a little

    Memo from Nicholas Katzenbach, Deputy Attorney General

    November 25, 1963

    MEMORANDUM FOR MR. MOYERS


    It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way which will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

    1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

    2. Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat-- too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced.

    3. The matter has been handled thus far with neither dignity nor conviction. Facts have been mixed with rumour and speculation. We can scarcely let the world see us totally in the image of the Dallas police when our President is murdered.

    I think this objective may be satisfied by making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination. This may run into the difficulty of pointing to in- consistencies between this report and statements by Dallas police officials. But the reputation of the Bureau is such that it may do the whole job. The only other step would be the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions. This has both advantages and disadvantages. It think it can await publication of the FBI report and public reaction to it here and abroad.

    I think, however, that a statement that all the facts will be made public property in an orderly and responsible way should be made now. We need something to head off public speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort.

    Nicholas deB. Katzenbach

    Deputy Attorney General

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    50 years later, Wecht continues to poke holes in report on JFK assassination

    By David Conti

    Published: Saturday, Nov. 16, 2013, 10:09 p.m.
    Updated 2 hours ago



    They were born a year apart to Jewish immigrants in rural towns as the Great Depression took hold.

    Both served in the Air Force during the Cold War, studied law, went into politics. They nearly served together in the Senate. They wrote books and fought public battles.

    Yet 3 centimeters of copper-jacketed lead forever separated Dr. Cyril Wecht of Squirrel Hill and the late Sen. Arlen Specter of Philadelphia.

    When gunfire in Dallas 50 years ago this Friday ended the life of President John F. Kennedy, Wecht and Specter were on different professional trajectories.

    “What I've done and who I am, in Pittsburgh, for better or worse, I don't think you can link to JFK,” said Wecht, 82, a forensic pathologist who was elected Allegheny County coroner and county commissioner around a decades-long medical-legal consultant business.

    Exhibit 399 — the single bullet — made Wecht and Specter national names.

    As a junior attorney for the Warren Commission, Specter developed the single-bullet theory of the assassination. He concluded the 161-grain slug fired by Lee Harvey Oswald entered and exited the bodies of Kennedy and Texas Gov. John Connally a combined seven times as the president's convertible rolled through Dealey Plaza.

    “It began as a theory, but when a theory is established by the facts, it deserves to be called a conclusion,” Specter wrote in his 2000 book, “Passion for Truth.”

    Wecht poked holes in the commission's findings during a 1965 meeting of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences. He has spent 48 years explaining how Specter's “conclusion” fails, and with it the commission's finding that Oswald acted alone in Dallas.

    “It was an American conspiracy,” Wecht said. “It was a coup d'etat.”

    ‘Impossible to explain'



    Fifty years later, the debate has not abated.

    Last month, about 500 people gathered at Duquesne University for a JFK symposium sponsored by the university's Institute of Forensic Science and Law, which is named for Wecht. Appearances by Stone and a doctor who tended to Kennedy brought national attention.

    People sneered when they mentioned Specter's name or the single-bullet theory.

    Across the state, the Single Bullet exhibit opened on Oct. 21. It's the first exhibition in Philadelphia University's Arlen Specter Center for Public Policy. Willens, the former Kennedy aide, delivered a speech.

    The center's coordinator, Karen Albert, said he was looking forward to defending his conclusion on the 50th anniversary.

    Wecht said he endorsed Specter for Senate in 2004, the only time he supported a Republican.

    They joined for a few public debates on the bullet and the commission. But Wecht said they never discussed their differences in private.

    “I wasn't going to convince him,” Wecht said. “He wasn't going to convince me.”


    Read more: http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/5...#ixzz2lL1SXyzg
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    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-22-2013 at 04:20 PM. Reason: Reduced to Fair Use Quote

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    Odd facts

    • Oswald was given a nitrate test on the night after the shooting. Results showed he had not fired a rifle recently.

    • Julia Ann Mercer, caught in traffic on Elm Street, saw a man get out of a truck and carry a rifle up the grassy knoll. She later identified the driver to the FBI as Jack Ruby.

    • More than 500 photos were taken by 75 photographers in Dealey Plaza in the hour before, during and after the shooting. The Warren Commission examined 26 photos; the FBI examined 50.

    • Sixteen of the 20 Dallas sheriff's deputies in Dealey Plaza believed shots came from the knoll and ran in that direction.

    • Connally's clothes were dry cleaned, destroying evidence.

    • Oswald's mother insisted that he was an intelligence agent.

    • There was more metal in Connally's body than was missing from Commission Exhibit 399, which is known as the “magic bullet.” Connally died in 1993.

    • Kennedy's brain is missing from the National Archives.


    Read more: http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/5...#ixzz2lL1jHkJm
    Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post

    • Kennedy's brain is missing from the National Archives.


    Read more: http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/5...#ixzz2lL1jHkJm
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    maybe it's time to get serious about the return policy, you check out Kenndy's brain, you have to return it on time to the Archives, I wonder how many overdue return fees that guy racked up?
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    JFK Assassination Oswald CBS Mannlicher Carcano Rifle Test 1967

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WovyEqfR8Hg

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    Yeah, even people I know who worship government think there is a conspiracy with JFK. Whether their opinion is had by cultural osmosis or actually looking at the facts, any reasonable person knows it was a conspiracy. But what actually happened and who was involved in it? Endless opinions. I think LBJ was in on it. There is also some evidence George Bush I got his hands dirty in Dallas that day. The spook turned war criminal "doesn't remember" where he was that day, but we know he was in Texas, and there is a suspicious photograph of a man in Dallas that day which looks like him.

    Whatever happened, all future Presidents now know that they can be taken out if they don't behave.

    Prediction: if Rand Paul becomes a serious contender for President, he will have a tragic "accident". If he becomes President and doesn't bomb Iran, he will have an "accident".
    Last edited by 77zach; 11-21-2013 at 10:22 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Remarkable Take on JFK’s Assassination, David Bernstein

    http://www.volokh.com/2013/11/21/rem...assassination/
    Oswald killing Kennedy upended the American progressive left's world, with a demonstration of the utter failure in all aspects of Hegelian Marxism's dialectic. They struggled on and have co-opted America's progressive Ruling Party.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Now that Jack Ruby is dead, four years later. Traitor or hero? Secrets buried with Oswald or just deserts for an assassin?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    whats the big deal about Kennedy ?

    I have never gotten the media fascination and slobbering over Kennedy. He was an average president.

    I think the slobbering has more to do with liberals and how they worship government and elitism.

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    I'd say he was above average, though he was certainly put into extraordinary circumstances in order for that to happen. He had a good staff and made some gutsy calls that history put him on the right side of.

    I'd say his biggest advantage to being a "big deal" was his timing in technology. It was the same era where TV was putting news with pictures in many more people's living rooms.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    at the time..............

    people thought he was a young, vibrant leader who was turning over the Washington establishment of old men. He actually did make legislative moves to lower taxes (something you would never see a Dem doing nowadays). What people forget though, is that he was the one that got us involved in Vietnam. Johnson just escalated it, but Kennedy was the one who originally decided we needed to fight the spread of Communism in that country, so he committed American "advisors". We obviously hadn't learned the lessons of the French who fought there for 20 years before that and lost. What a waste.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    It was a magic, happy time for most Americans and JFK symbolized that in many ways. Camelot with all of the knights and ladies. Then we were jerked back to reality within a few seconds in Dallas.

    Now it is a matter of historical reference via the anniversary date with the attendant discussions and old films.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It was a magic, happy time for most Americans and JFK symbolized that in many ways..
    JFK was a drug addict whose entire family were junkies, drunks,thieves and corrupt politicians.

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    so what you're really saying is................

    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    JFK was a drug addict whose entire family were junkies, drunks,thieves and corrupt politicians.
    nothing in Washington has really changed then?????

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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    JFK was a drug addict whose entire family were junkies, drunks,thieves and corrupt politicians.
    + 1

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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    It was a magic, happy time for most Americans and JFK symbolized that in many ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    JFK was a drug addict whose entire family were junkies, drunks,thieves and corrupt politicians.
    Outside of your limited, stylized perception, he did make people feel good about themselves. That is what was the case and was given in reponse to the original (OP) question.

    There were many things beyond the public's immediate view that would have made JFK less than noble had they been well known. Many things were considered off limits to journalists back then. His frailties/faults are well known today.

    Still he ignited a nation and brought people together (both in life and in his death) - for that he is remembered.

    Now if it was your intention to broach the subject of JFK's presidency and people's interest in it to just make a bash thread, you can forget it.

    Now if you chose to recommend a book on the subject, then that would be a fit in the Social Lounge; but please don't detail the good parts. Let us read it for ourselves.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The man should be left alone to rest in peace. As cold as it may sound we have much more important matters in the present day to deal with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    JFK was a drug addict whose entire family were junkies, drunks,thieves and corrupt politicians.
    So the coup d'etat and subsequent coverup was justified then???? Hell maybe they should have tried and executed him with full public knowledge.


    I dont believe these threads should have been merged. One was about the assassination of JFK the other was about why people "like" him.


    Deflect and distract, that is the name of the game with dicussing JFKs assassination.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    So the coup d'etat and subsequent coverup was justified then???? Hell maybe they should have tried and executed him with full public knowledge.

    I dont believe these threads should have been merged. One was about the assassination of JFK the other was about why people "like" him.

    Deflect and distract, that is the name of the game with dicussing JFKs assassination.
    No sir - one was about trashing JFK, the other about remembering him for his position in history. Both related to the assassination, at least as the causal agent/interest in posting.

    This way there is some balance in the two different points of view.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-22-2013 at 05:05 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    ... Camelot with all of the knights and ladies. Then we were jerked back to reality within a few seconds in Dallas. ...
    The point is being hammered in the media that 'Camelot' was Jackie's invention from whole cloth after the assassination. "New and improved" for Ari?

    ETA:
    Camelot Documents contain notes taken during a series of interviews(or just one?) conducted by White, with Jacqueline Kennedy in the weeks following John F. Kennedy’s assassination in November 1963. https://web.archive.org/web/20060906...e_theodore.htm
    My mother was of the Nantucket Coffins line (Coffin, Gibson, Page), my great-grandmother Coffin, and would (in her dotage, literally) spit at the mention of the Kennedys, from the bootlegger (the narrative I was raised on) to the philanderer.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 11-22-2013 at 05:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RK3369 View Post
    people thought he was a young, vibrant leader who was turning over the Washington establishment of old men. He actually did make legislative moves to lower taxes (something you would never see a Dem doing nowadays). What people forget though, is that he was the one that got us involved in Vietnam. Johnson just escalated it, but Kennedy was the one who originally decided we needed to fight the spread of Communism in that country, so he committed American "advisors". We obviously hadn't learned the lessons of the French who fought there for 20 years before that and lost. What a waste.
    Nope. Vietnam involvement dates back to Eisenhower and Truman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb View Post
    Nope. Vietnam involvement dates back to Eisenhower and Truman.
    So Kennedy did nothing to promote Vietnam? I think he began the escalation...Ike and Truman were just a small # of advisers to assist a group who shall not be named.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    why has no one noticed the obvious?

    JFK killed 50 years ago, Dr Who started 50 years ago. We're expected to believe this guy's story that he's a time travelling alien ?

    No, I say Dr Who was the new identity given to the man on the grassy knoll .....

    [/tongue in cheek]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Outside of your limited, stylized perception, he did make people feel good about themselves. He promised hope and change. That is what was the case and was given in reponse to the original (OP) question.

    There were many things beyond the public's immediate view that would have made JFK less than noble had they been well known. Many things were considered off limits to journalists back then. His frailties/faults are well known today. Speak no ill of the dead - until we forget why we are avoiding anything that might embarass anyone.

    Still he ignited a nation and brought people together (both in life and in his death) He brought the promise of hope and change. - for that he is remembered.

    Now if it was your intention to broach the subject of JFK's presidency and people's interest in it to just make a bash thread, you can forget it.

    Now if you chose to recommend a book on the subject, then that would be a fit in the Social Lounge; but please don't detail the good parts. Let us read it for ourselves.
    IIRC the only president that did not promise hope and change was G. Washington during his first term. Go read your history books to see the massive amounts of change he hoped to accomplish in his second term.

    And no, I do not think for a second that he was the one that started that. Upstart kings and chiefs have been doing that since Adam & Eve's first kids (who were not Cain & Abel).

    stay safe.
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    For anyone who's interested, I read a book a few years ago by Col. Craig Roberts about the actual shooting. Roberts is (or was) an elite rifleman and sniper in the military and took a keen interest in the whole JFK thing. He persuasively argued about where the shots came from (not what the official story says) and that they were done by elite foreign marksmen . He provided evidence about what type of bullet was used and most interestingly, provided a list of people he thought who could pull off the shots (not names, but where to look).
    Last edited by 77zach; 11-22-2013 at 08:36 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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