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11-22-63 50 years ago America died a little

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skidmark

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Outside of your limited, stylized perception, he did make people feel good about themselves. He promised hope and change. That is what was the case and was given in reponse to the original (OP) question.

There were many things beyond the public's immediate view that would have made JFK less than noble had they been well known. Many things were considered off limits to journalists back then. His frailties/faults are well known today. Speak no ill of the dead - until we forget why we are avoiding anything that might embarass anyone.

Still he ignited a nation and brought people together (both in life and in his death) He brought the promise of hope and change. - for that he is remembered.

Now if it was your intention to broach the subject of JFK's presidency and people's interest in it to just make a bash thread, you can forget it.

Now if you chose to recommend a book on the subject, then that would be a fit in the Social Lounge; but please don't detail the good parts. Let us read it for ourselves.

IIRC the only president that did not promise hope and change was G. Washington during his first term. Go read your history books to see the massive amounts of change he hoped to accomplish in his second term.

And no, I do not think for a second that he was the one that started that. Upstart kings and chiefs have been doing that since Adam & Eve's first kids (who were not Cain & Abel).

stay safe.
 

77zach

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For anyone who's interested, I read a book a few years ago by Col. Craig Roberts about the actual shooting. Roberts is (or was) an elite rifleman and sniper in the military and took a keen interest in the whole JFK thing. He persuasively argued about where the shots came from (not what the official story says) and that they were done by elite foreign marksmen . He provided evidence about what type of bullet was used and most interestingly, provided a list of people he thought who could pull off the shots (not names, but where to look).
 
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Jeff. State

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No sir - one was about trashing JFK, the other about remembering him for his position in history. Both related to the assassination, at least as the causal agent/interest in posting.

This way there is some balance in the two different points of view.

Incase you didn't notice my OP and follow up posts related to the Absolute BS, that is the "official story". Nothing about "remembering" JFK, but exposing a 50 year old LIE.

JFK's assassination is an integral episode of "the wool" being completely pulled over America's eyes. I could care less about onus' "issues" with the Kennedy clan. Dark forces far greater than some loser with a mail order rifle were at work 50 years ago today.
 

Grapeshot

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For anyone who's interested, I read a book a few years ago by Col. Craig Roberts about the actual shooting. Roberts is (or was) an elite rifleman and sniper in the military and took a keen interest in the whole JFK thing. He persuasively argued about where the shots came from (not what the official story says) and that they were done by elite foreign marksmen . He provided evidence about what type of bullet was used and most interestingly, provided a list of people he thought who could pull off the shots (not names, but where to look).

Do you recall the title of that book?
 

Jeff. State

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An excerpt from Robert's book......

(1) Unlike Oswald, who failed to qualify on the rifle range in Boot Camp, and who barely qualified "Marksman"-the lowest of three grades-on a later try, I was a trained and combat-experienced Marine sniper. I had spent a year in Vietnam, during which time I had numerous occasions to line up living, breathing human beings in the crosshairs of my precision Unertl scope and squeeze the trigger of my bolt-action Model 70 Winchester and send a .30 caliber match-grade round zipping down range.

Here I was, a professional police officer and writer, looking down at the most famous ambush site in history through the eyes of a sniper. A strange feeling came over me. A feeling of calm, dampening my anger. The trained investigator inside me surfaced and took over my emotions. I began to scrutinize what my senses were absorbing.

First, I analyzed the scene as a sniper. In the time allotted, and in the distance along the street in which the rounds had impacted the target from first report to final shot, it would take a minimum of two people shooting. There was little hope that I alone, even if armed with the precision equipment I had used in Vietnam, would be able duplicate the feat described by the Warren Commission. So if I couldn't, I reasoned, Oswald couldn't.

Unless he had help.

I looked at the engagement angle. It was entirely wrong. The wall of the building in which the windows overlooked Dealey Plaza ran east and west. By looking directly down at the best engagement angle-which was straight out the window facing south-I could see Houston Street. Houston was perpendicular to the wall and ran directly toward my window. This is the street on which the motorcade had approached and would have been my second choice as a zone of engagement. My first choice was directly below the window, at a drastic bend in the street that had to be negotiated by Kennedy's limousine. It would have to slow appreciably, almost to a stop, and when it did, the target would be presented moving at its slowest pace. The last zone of engagement I would pick would be as the limo drove away toward the west-and the Grassy Knoll. Here, from what I could see, three problems arose that would influence my shots. First, the target was moving away at a drastic angle to the right from the window, meaning that I would have to position my body to compete with the wall and a set of vertical water pipes on the left frame of the window to get a shot. This would be extremely difficult for a righthanded shooter. Second, I would have be ready to fire exactly when the target emerged past some tree branches that obscured the kill zone. Finally, I would have to deal with two factors at the same time: the curve of the street, and the high-to-low angle formula-a law of physics Oswald would not have known.

Even if I waited for the target to pass the primary and secondary engagement zones, and for some reason decided to engage instead in the worst possible area, I still had to consider the fact that Oswald made his farthest, and most difficult shot, last. I estimated the range for this shot at between 80 and 90 yards. It was this final shot that, according to the Warren Commission, struck Kennedy's head.

As an experienced sniper, something else bothered me. Any sniper knows that the two most important things to be considered in selecting a position are the fields of fire, and a route of escape. You have to have both. It is of little value to take a shot, then not be able to successfully get away to fight another day. Even if the window was a spot that I would select for a hide, I had doubts about my ability to escape afterwards. According to what little I had read, the elevator was stuck on a floor below at the time in question, and only the stairway could have been used as a means of withdrawal. And there were dozens of people-potential witnesses-below who would be able to identify anyone rushing away from the scene. Not good.

But Oswald was not a trained or experienced military sniper. He was supposed to be little more than some odd-ball with a grudge. And for whatever reason, had decided to buy a rifle and shoot the President of the United States. Or so the Warren Commission would have us believe.


(2) Knoll and the Picket Fence, which I had purposely saved for last. I walked up the slope and around the fence, arriving in a parking lot that was bordered on the northwest by train tracks. I walked the length of the fence, stopping at a spot on the eastern end.

I looked over the fence at Elm Street and froze. This is exactly where I would position myself if I wanted the most accurate shot possible considering the terrain I had explored. It had some drawbacks-it was close to witnesses, and prone to pre-incident discovery-but the advantages far outweighed the disadvantages for a determined assassin. The target vehicle would be approaching instead of moving away, thereby continually decreasing the range; the shot would be almost flat trajectory, making the down-angle formula a mute point; the deflection (right/left angle) would change little until the car passed a freeway sign on the north curbline; and finally, it offered numerous escape route possibilities. Behind me, to the north and west, was a parking lot full of cars, a train yard full of boxcars, and several physical terrain features to use as cover during withdrawal. It was by far the best spot.

Looking almost due east, across the grassy open park-like Plaza, I could see two multi-story office-type buildings approximately the same height as the Depository. The roof tops of either building would be excellent firing positions for a trained rifleman with the proper equipment, and would be the places I would select if I wanted the best possible chance of not being detected in advance. Without going to the roofs of each, I could not determine the accessibility of escape routes. But for firing platforms, they were ideal.

Then, considering the possibility of multiple-snipers (which meant a conspiracy), I had to ask myself how I would position the shooters to cover the kill zone in front of the Grassy Knoll?

My military training once again took over. I would use an area within the Plaza that would afford the best kill zone for either a crossfire or triangulated fire. Simply put, I would position my teams in such a way that their trajectory of fire converged on the most advantageous point to assure a kill. In the military, single snipers are seldom used. Normally, the smallest sniper team consists of two men, a sniper and his spotter/security man. Even in police SWAT teams, a marksman has an observer who is equipped with a spotting scope or binoculars to help pick and identify targets and handle the radio communications.

In this case, I would position at least one team behind the Picket Fence (more if I wanted to secure the rear against intruders), another on one or both of the two office buildings (which I later found to be the Dallas County Records Building and the County Criminal Courts Building), and possibly a team on a building across the street north of the Records Building known at the time as the Dal-Tex building. I would have never put anyone in the School Book Depository with so many locations that were much more advantageous unless I needed diversion. If I did, it would be a good place for red herrings to be observed by witnesses.
 

Jeff. State

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I have heard and read figures in the 60-70% range of American's do not believe the Oswald single shooter THEORY.

Why in the H--- doesn't anyone reopen this????? The same will happen with 9-11, as time passes more and more people realize the "official story" is complete B.S. and those behind what TRULY happened will get away with it. JUST LIKE WITH JFK.
 

mikeyb

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Raise your hand if you've actually been to the Texas School Book Depository 6th floor...

I've been there, to the window to the right of where Oswald shot. Anyone with a little bit of practice should be able to hit a target on the street, scoped or not. It's not a difficult shot.

A crackpot without a concrete plan is the most difficult to defend. While I don't think Oswald had any help shooting JFK, I don't think Oswald is alone in the assassination; planning or "cover-up" afterwards.

But then again, I wasn't there.
 

Maverick9

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I looked over the fence at Elm Street and froze. This is exactly where I would position myself if I wanted the most accurate shot possible considering the terrain I had explored. It had some drawbacks-it was close to witnesses, and prone to pre-incident discovery-but the advantages far outweighed the disadvantages for a determined assassin. The target vehicle would be approaching instead of moving away, thereby continually decreasing the range; the shot would be almost flat trajectory, making the down-angle formula a mute point; the deflection (right/left angle) would change little until the car passed a freeway sign on the north curbline; and finally, it offered numerous escape route possibilities. Behind me, to the north and west, was a parking lot full of cars, a train yard full of boxcars, and several physical terrain features to use as cover during withdrawal. It was by far the best spot.

This is completely erroneous and if he were a sniper on my squad offering a plan, I would tell him he flunked sniper school.

1. A sniper is careful not to commit collateral damage. Jackie would have been directly in the line of fire from the GK, or picket fence.

2. He was right next to the spot Zapruder stood, there were people around him, and Ed Hoffman could see the whole area from the triple overpass and Lee Bowers was in a railroad control tower right behind him. The escape route was hemmed in as there was only one exit from the railroad yard parking lot.

3. The window, the trajectory, the backdrop were all poor. He had about 10 feet at, what 10-12mph or 14 feet per second, meaning he'd have to track the target. He had less than a second of clear space, at 14 fps, and about 10 feet of clear shot to see the target get the sights and fire. Too short for a 'must do' all else fails clean up shot. Ridiculous. No real pro sniper would accept it.

The best angle would have been from the storm drain up on the bridge of the triple overpass (not in the storm drain in the street), either on the North or South sides. The car would have no need for tracking and it would be coming almost directly toward the shooter. On the South side, (opposite side) the angle would not have Jackie in the backdrop but would have had some tracking. The North triple overpass storm drain (TO-SD) (built kind of like a bunker) was almost lined up with Elm street. Any 'mop up' shooter would HAVE to be stationed here. Note that Greer slowed the car almost to a stop for about five frames of film as seen by the tail lights going on in the Nix film.

It was known that a car was parked on top of the manhole cover for that drain, but there was a large opening which lead to tunnels which opened near the railroad, places to stash the firearm, change the outfit. The car prevented anyone from trying to open the cover from above.

Since there was a small hole through-and-through on the windshield if you line that up with JFK, it appears to be that odd shot from over on the other side (Southside) where there was a parking lot below the TO-SD. Robert Cutler suggests a team was positioned here.

In addition to the other prerequisites, the TO-SD was built like a bunker with a rather narrow opening so that return fire success would be almost impossible.

So, sorry, 'A (wanna-be) Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza', you're a joke. You picked the GK because you wanted to jump on board the acoustic evidence stuff and the witnesses running up there.

The truth is there was someone shooting something from the GN, but it was a diversionary shot not intended to hit anyone. But ideal sniper's nest? No, not by a mile.

The truth is there was no other place to station the actual kill-shot. Coming down Houston would have been best for "a lone nut" in the TSBD, but he didn't fire. Why? Because he was not there. You're in the 6th floor, the car is coming RIGHT TOWARD YOU and you do nothing and wait a minute and try a shot that is 80 yards out going down hill and away to the side. Forget it. The author did have that part right.
 
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WalkingWolf

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The shot was 35 yards from a overlooking window, a very good pistolero could easily make that shot, let alone a gunman with a scoped rifle.

35 yards! We had to qualify with fast turning targets with handguns at 25 yards!

Now I wasn't there, I was a child, I only have what government and skeptics have claimed. I really don't care, we have much more important issues to tackle.
 

katsung47

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1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin;

Nicholas deB. Katzenbach

Deputy Attorney General

801. Assassination of J.F.K. (11/25/2013)

Yesterday I posted a comment about JFK’s death in Yahoo news. Several minutes later, my comment disappeared from the news comment. I put it here.

You all fall into the trap the mastermind set up for you. Oswald, Johnson, Mafia, Castro….. Did they have ability to organize such a big plot? Think bigger. It is an organization that controls Secret Service, media, lawmakers, police force. That’s why after 50 years, people are still lose in dense fog.

1. Warren Commission was used to cover up the plot. Just like 911 commission used to cover up the truth of 911 attack.


2. Kill Kennedy family members to prevent them to re-gain political power to start a real investigation of J.F.K.’s death.

Robert Kennedy was assassinated when he joined the president campaign. Edward Kennedy suffered a scandal attack and had to drop the president campaign.

I also allege Kennedy’s wife Jacqueline Kennedy and his son John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Jr. were murdered because they had great political influence. I believe their death had connection to my story.

In early 1990s when I was still very innocent about US political system and believed it was a democratic society, I complained to a lot of people that I had become a murder target of the Feds. Then the Feds had a message to me: “So what, they (the Feds) even killed President Kennedy.” (see “17. They killed President Kennedy”) The intimidation hadn’t stopped my complaint but added “they killed President Kennedy” to the story.

As the Feds intensified the persecution, I left US twice. Each time Kennedy family lost an important member.

1. I left for China in 1994. Jacqueline died after I planned the China trip. I started to suspect it might relate to the intimidation from the Feds. It was too coincident.

2. Next time it was 1999 when I went to Hong Kong and planned to drift into South East Asia. I learned the death of Jr. Kennedy. It convinced my allegation – the Feds worry that I would reveal their crime of murdering President Kennedy, in abroad they were not able to control the media as they did in domestic US. To prevent a possible reaction from Kennedy family, they kill the main figures of the family in advance.


Edward Kennedy and Jacqueline Kennedy died of cancer. In my description, there were many murdering method through slow poison. The victim targeted were fed to sick gradually, when the time coming they only need to increase the dose to make the death like a natural one.

Jr. Kennedy was too young to die in this way. So he died in an accident. Long time ago when I started to learn something about the E.M. sleep wave, I had read such a news. Air Force lost a plane in a train. The commander center lost its trace. Sometime later, they found the wreckage in a far, far away mountain area. Apparently, the plane exhausted all its fuel and crashed there. Since the pilot was a black man. I thought it was a test to use sleep wave instrument as a weapon. When the pilot felt sleepy, he opened auto pilot instrument. He took a nod, hoping it could help him to overcome the sleepy but could never wake up. The sleeping wave was irresistible – to my experience. If you are driving a car, you may park your car at roadside before you go to sleep, but you can’t park a plane in the air.

I think Jr. Kennedy died in a similar murder plot.
 

Grapeshot

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eye95

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This thing never talks OC or even carry. It doesn't give a crap about the RKBA. Actually, I'd bet that it is an anti.

Like clockwork, on its rounds, it comes by to drop its load on us and move on.

The staff really need to do their job and stop this spamming. They won't.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

Grapeshot

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--snipped--.

The staff really need to do their job and stop this spamming. They won't.
Eye what makes your post insulting is that you know the problem (or should) yet you continue with your campaign incessantly w/o regard.
 

eye95

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Eye what makes your post insulting is that you know the problem (or should) yet you continue with your campaign incessantly w/o regard.

You insult me with this post, and then delete my reply because you sent me a PM?

Hogwash!

BTW, until you can clean up your moderation act, don't ever tell me something in confidence again. This is the last confidence you can count on from me. If I ever trust you again as a moderator, I may agree to a confidence with your official self. As it stands now, I still respect you as a poster and will keep any confidence you share as a poster, but not as a mod.

Feel free to delete this post. However, I hope, but don't expect, you to clean up your post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

Grapeshot

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You insult me with this post, and then delete my reply because you sent me a PM?

Hogwash!

BTW, until you can clean up your moderation act, don't ever tell me something in confidence again. This is the last confidence you can count on from me. If I ever trust you again as a moderator, I may agree to a confidence with your official self. As it stands now, I still respect you as a poster and will keep any confidence you share as a poster, but not as a mod.

Feel free to delete this post. However, I hope, but don't expect, you to clean up your post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Deleted your post because it was off-topic, attacking the adminstration of the site w/o knowing or caring about the limitations, and generally an oft repeated one man campaign. Any one reason whould have been enough.

It has been clearly stated before that PMs are private, not for public disclosure. To breach that trust would be a very serious infraction.


  • (6) NO PERSONAL ATTACKS: While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks or general bashing of groups of people based upon race, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender-identity or choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer, in the military, etc). NOTE THAT THIS RULE APPLIES TO PMs AS WELL AS FORUM POSTS!!!


My PM was a meant to be informative and an appeal to your sense of reasonableness - obviously it was a futile attempt as you persist.

No reason to keep this thread open - locking it.
 
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