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Thread: Hello All OC'rs, a quick intro and a few questions!

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    Hello All OC'rs, a quick intro and a few questions!

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    Last edited by MountainDEWDjv; 01-15-2014 at 06:32 AM.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Edited to add: Welcome to OCDO!

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainDEWDjv View Post
    since they consider a mag pouch to be a valid container for your loaded mags do you think they would consider a good holster to be a valid holder for your pistol provided it is in plain sight?
    The way I read the law, that would be acceptable - IANAL, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainDEWDjv View Post
    if they do, would I have to inform the officer that I have a pistol on my person ... or is that a dumb question considering it will be in plain sight?
    There is nothing in the law that I am aware of that would require you to notify an officer that you have an unloaded pistol on your person.

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainDEWDjv View Post
    If I have my pistol in the car and I am legally transporting it am I required to notify a law officer that I have a firearm, much like a CHL carrier does?
    There is nothing in the law that I am aware of that would require you to notify an officer that you have an unloaded pistol in your car, whether or not you have a CHL.
    Last edited by JustaShooter; 11-25-2013 at 08:04 AM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Vehicle carry w/o permit is not legal

    It is my understanding reading HB-12 as passed is that it is illegal in Ohio to have a loaded handgun in a vehicle w/o a permit, no "stored" in your holster on your hip is not properly stored - doesn't fit the box or container as defined/intended.

    It does appear that the handgun may be in plain sight if unloaded and the action open.

    Ammunition in a mag carrier does not seem to be covered in this circumstance.

    Must notify an officer? If properly stored/secured, I don't believe so.

    http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=286

    http://lsc.state.oh.us/analyses/Anal...256E3500462594

    http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/b...m?ID=125_HB_12

    I'm sure that others with better knowledge of Ohio statutes will chime in shortly.
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    Another out of stater here--but I've had this conversation before. I'll use this as a chance to do a memory dump, no doubt if I flub someone will inform me. Better to find out here than during a traffic stop.

    If you do not have a permit:

    The gun can be kept in the trunk, unloaded, in a closed container. (I don't recall where else in the car might be legal, but I am pretty sure that "on your hip" isn't. And loaded, anywhere in the car, isn't legal. I'd be surprised if anywhere in reach is legal but would love to reliably hear otherwise.) The ammo and mags must be kept in another closed container. So to OC at one's destination, one must exit the car, go to the trunk, load the gun holding it in the trunk so no one sees and freaks out, then very quickly transfer it to your holster.

    If you do have a permit:

    The law stops infringing on your carry rights in your car. (Never mind that having to get the permit is itself an infringement.)

    On my to do list before my next trip to Ohio is getting a Utah permit which, unlike my Colorado permit, Ohio will recognize.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It is my understanding reading HB-12 as passed is that it is illegal in Ohio to have a loaded handgun in a vehicle w/o a permit, no "stored" in your holster on your hip is not properly stored - doesn't fit the box or container as defined/intended.
    As I understood it, we were talking about an unloaded handgun in the holster. If it is loaded, then no question about it, this is an improper method of transport. If unloaded and in plain sight, then to me a holster satisfies the "In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose" provision of ORC 2923.16 (C) (3).

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It does appear that the handgun may be in plain sight if unloaded and the action open.
    As I read it, that provision does not apply to a handgun since it says "If the firearm is at least twenty-four inches in overall length as measured from the muzzle to the part of the stock furthest from the muzzle and if the barrel is at least eighteen inches in length"

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Ammunition in a mag carrier does not seem to be covered in this circumstance.
    Section (K) (5) says
    (b) For the purposes of division (K)(5)(a)(ii) of this section, a "container that provides complete and separate enclosure" includes, but is not limited to, any of the following:
    (ii) A pocket or other enclosure on the person of the person in question that closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents
    so if the mag holder completely encloses the mag and has a fastener of some kind, then it would appear to satisfy this provision.
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    Do NOT carry your firearm in a holster if you do not have a CHL!! The key is that the container has to CLOSE.

    How I do it: I keep the gun in its closed case on the seat next to me. My loaded mags and my Barney Fife are in pocket(s) that snap, button, or velcro closed. I only will store them in pockets with flaps so there is no question of closure.

    IANAL, but if you use your holster as a container, I expect you to be arrested, charged, and convicted. If you use a magazine holder that does not close, I also expect arrest, charge, and conviction.

    I live in Ohio and carry without a permission slip from the State, however I likely will get one just to avoid the hassle in a car. I have read every word of the law, but remember, IANAL.

    I don't give a rat's ass about the requirement for a license to conceal. However, requiring a license to effectively carry in a car is a violation of the RKBA. That law needs to change. I am not a proponent of CC or OC. My goal is unfettered UC (unlicensed carry).

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Do NOT carry your firearm in a holster if you do not have a CHL!! The key is that the container has to CLOSE.
    I disagree:
    (C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless the person may lawfully possess that firearm under applicable law of this state or the United States, the firearm is unloaded, and the firearm is carried in one of the following ways:

    (1) In a closed package, box, or case;

    (2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;

    (3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;
    Note that the "closed package, box, or case" requirement is a separate method than the "in plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose" requirement. One may choose either but is not required to satisfy more than one of the 3 methods.

    The question is whether or not a holster that is in plain sight satisfies the requirements of the 3rd method. I am not a lawyer, but the way I read the section, it would. But you better make darn sure it is in and stays in plain sight, and you still may get to take a ride to the local hoosegow and get to be the test case for that interpretation of the section in question.

    Please note that I make such a determination from the position of one who, as a CHL holder in the State of Ohio, will not have to worry about adhering to that particular section of the law. You of course get to make your own determination about your level of risk acceptance and may decide that another method is preferable to the possibility of becoming a test case.
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    Hello All OC'rs, a quick intro and a few questions!

    Folks, take the folksy legal advice at your own peril, but clearly the law is talking about the typical rack or holder that might be mounted in a vehicle (usually a pickup) for hunting firearms. Holsters are surely NOT what was meant by this law. However, if anyone wants to press the issue, they should take the chance with their own freedom, not advocate behaviors that would likely cost the freedom of others.

    Moving on. Nothing further is to be gained from my participating in this subdiscussion.

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    Last edited by eye95; 11-25-2013 at 01:13 PM.

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    Though Eye95 has 'moved on', I do have a question for him.

    How do you convert to carry in a closed container in the car to your person when, during, after exiting the vehicle, or whatever 'method' you select.

    I would think that getting out of the car, opening the case on the seat would immediately run afoul of the law, before you even put it on your hip. If you take the case out of the car, now you (appears to me) are 'concealing', even if for a short time. Also, you could run afoul of 'brandishing' allegations if you are handling a firearm in the process of going from case to holster.

    This is for a person without a CHL and is open carrying. According to, or pursuant to ORC 9.68, Ohio is an OC state.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 11-25-2013 at 01:31 PM.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    clearly the law is talking about the typical rack or holder that might be mounted in a vehicle (usually a pickup) for hunting firearms. Holsters are surely NOT what was meant by this law. However, if anyone wants to press the issue, they should take the chance with their own freedom, not advocate behaviors that would likely cost the freedom of others.
    That may have been their desire but the actual wording of the law does not restrict it to that interpretation. For the record I am not advocating carrying an unloaded firearm in a holster while in their vehicle, merely stating that I cannot see where it would be illegal according to my interpretation of ORC 2923.16. Anyone would do well to heed your (and my) cautions about doing so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Though Eye95 has 'moved on', I do have a question for him.

    How do you convert to carry in a closed container in the car to your person when, during, after exiting the vehicle, or whatever 'method' you select.

    I would think that getting out of the car, opening the case on the seat would immediately run afoul of the law, before you even put it on your hip. If you take the case out of the car, now you (appears to me) are 'concealing', even if for a short time. Also, you could run afoul of 'brandishing' allegations if you are handling a firearm in the process of going from case to holster.

    This is for a person without a CHL and is open carrying. According to, or pursuant to ORC 9.68, Ohio is an OC state.
    When I move on, it is from a particular subdiscussion with particular poster(s) that has become fruitless. I will be happy to discuss with you.

    Good question. I remove the encased firearm from the vehicle. I then close the car so that there is no mistake that I am in it. I then unencase the firearm, use whatever cover is available from my car and anything around it to shield my activity from eyes that may totally misinterpret it, insert a magazine, chamber a round, engage the safety (if it is my 1911), and replace the round now missing from the magazine with my Barney Fife. Since the same two rounds keep getting chambered again and again, after a while, they become unusable.

    [rant]Having to go through this procedure is time-consuming, increases the risk of a mistake, can be misinterpreted by the uninformed, and is a downright infringement on the constitutionally-protected RKBA. This law must be changed and such change must be advocated by all who support UC![/rant]


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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Thanks eye95. That's a mess. it's probably not going to be challenged, but technically when you remove the case, close the door, you're 'concealing' inside the case, but who knows.

    Sorry you have to go through this silly routine. Thanks for the run-down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Thanks eye95. That's a mess. it's probably not going to be challenged, but technically when you remove the case, close the door, you're 'concealing' inside the case, but who knows.

    Sorry you have to go through this silly routine. Thanks for the run-down.
    Aren't you allowed to carry "cased" from one location to another where you are legally allowed to have it?
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    x
    Last edited by MountainDEWDjv; 01-15-2014 at 06:32 AM.

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    brandishing ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    ...I would think that getting out of the car, opening the case on the seat would immediately run afoul of the law, before you even put it on your hip. If you take the case out of the car, now you (appears to me) are 'concealing', even if for a short time. Also, you could run afoul of 'brandishing' allegations if you are handling a firearm in the process of going from case to holster.This is for a person without a CHL and is open carrying. According to, or pursuant to ORC 9.68, Ohio is an OC state.
    AFAIK, the Ohio Revised Code contains no criminal statute prohibiting "brandishing of a firearm".

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    ^^ Note I said 'allegations of brandishing'.

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2941.145

    It appears, though IANAL, that they do talk about it. You'd have to see the definition of brandishing.

    I'd like to see 'brandishing with cause' to be allowed as a legit defense, very narrowly defined of course, to exclude doing it a moving vehicle, for example.

    You can be 'arrested' for brandishing even though it's not illegal in your state, and then the punishment is legal fees and court fees. They just call it something else.

    Found this: 2923.16 is entitled "Improperly Handling Firearms In A Motor Vehicle".
    Last edited by Maverick9; 11-25-2013 at 05:26 PM.

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    "Brandishing" in Ohio is "aggravated menacing" (2903.21) when it's not 2941.145, which is directed at the brandishing of a firearm while committing another crime - which I suspect 99.9999999999% of OCers won't have to worry about.

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903.21

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    <sigh> Shall we discuss how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

    If you plan to OC regularly, wear your holster all the time. In your car, keep your handgun in a closed pistol case with magazine pouches on the outside that are separately sealed. Such a pistol case can be acquired for a modest sum; here is a good example of what I'm talking about, and it will cost less than $20.00, even with shipping.

    When you get out of the car, pull out the pistol case. Don't worry about it being "concealed" in the pistol case; it cannot be reasonably deemed to be concealed "on your person or ready at hand" during that transitional period. If so, nobody would ever be able to purchase a firearm and take it home in the box. Remove the handgun, insert a magazine, chamber a cartridge, and put the handgun in the exposed holster. Put an extra magazine or two in magazine pouch on your belt if you wish. Put the empty pistol case back in the car. I would recommend putting it out of sight; a visible pistol case - even empty - may invite theft attempts.

    In the vehicle, all that is really required is that the handgun be unloaded, that it be in a closed case, and that the loaded magazines be in a closed case that is separated from the handgun, preferably on the outside the compartment containing the handgun.

    Is this a guarantee that you will never be hassled? No. The same police officers who don't like open carry at all may try to bluff you into believing that you are violating the law. But they won't get a conviction.

    Do not carry the handgun in a holster on your person while in the motor vehicle, even if it is unloaded. That will be considered carrying a concealed weapon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    ^^ Note I said 'allegations of brandishing'.

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2941.145

    It appears, though IANAL, that they do talk about it.
    R.C. 2941.145 is not a stand-alone offense. It is a specification that is attached to an underlying felony offense which enhances the penalty by adding a period of three years mandatory prison time to the sentence for the underlying felony. That specification does not apply to the offenses of Carrying Concealed Weapons or Improperly Handling Firearms in a Motor Vehicle.

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    Werz...how fat are the angels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Werz View Post
    Do not carry the handgun in a holster on your person while in the motor vehicle, even if it is unloaded. That will be considered carrying a concealed weapon.
    Werz, I have a lot of respect for you and your very reasoned approach, but I cannot find in the ORC where this is the case. Can you point me to that portion of Ohio law, whether in the ORC or case law, that supports that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustaShooter View Post
    Werz, I have a lot of respect for you and your very reasoned approach, but I cannot find in the ORC where this is the case. Can you point me to that portion of Ohio law, whether in the ORC or case law, that supports that?
    Think he may be referring to:

    2923.16 Improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle.
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.16

    I am not familiar enough with that statute to offer a valid interpretation. Perhaps others will do so.
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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Think he may be referring to:

    2923.16 Improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle.
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.16

    I am not familiar enough with that statute to offer a valid interpretation. Perhaps others will do so.
    That is exactly the statute I've been reading that appears to allow a holstered firearm, because of the bolded, red portions below:

    (C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless the person may lawfully possess that firearm under applicable law of this state or the United States, the firearm is unloaded, and the firearm is carried in one of the following ways:

    (1) In a closed package, box, or case;

    (2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;

    (3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;
    As long as it is unloaded, in plain sight and in a holster (holder made for the purpose) it would appear to me to comply. Yet others who I respect interpret it differently. So if there is a portion of the law I'm missing, or case law to support the opposing view, I'd like to read it. I'm not unreasonable, and if provided with evidence to the contrary I have even been known to change my view and position on topics.
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    I think the disconnect here is that Werz is correct, you WILL be charged with Improper Handling AND CCW. That's just how things seen to happen in some parts of this state. Remember, cops can CHARGE you with jaywalking, even if you are sitting in the back seat of a car.

    However, I cannot see fault in Justa's interpretation. It would be an interesting defense to the aforementioned charges. Whether it would be an effective defense depends on the judge or jury.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    I think the disconnect here is that Werz is correct, you WILL be charged with Improper Handling AND CCW. That's just how things seen to happen in some parts of this state. Remember, cops can CHARGE you with jaywalking, even if you are sitting in the back seat of a car.

    However, I cannot see fault in Justa's interpretation. It would be an interesting defense to the aforementioned charges. Whether it would be an effective defense depends on the judge or jury.
    I see a HUGE fault in it. Absent a court ruling agreeing with his interpretation (and it is only and interpretation), he is putting any newbies who might take his advice at risk. Until he has been cuffed and stuffed for taking his own advice, been tried, and acquitted on the grounds he cites, he should stop putting others at legal risk with his interpretation.

    Folks, DO NOT carry your firearm in a holster in your car unless you have your CHL!


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