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Frequency of police shootings

Fuller Malarkey

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If I recall correctly, he did more then just list numbers. He wrote an entire post on what the numbers MAY mean among other things. So your vote is believe NOTHING the NYPD ever says. I can understand that and being skeptical.

Bolded wasn't needed, but thanks for the contribution. Also, you might want to start out by figuring out what a fallacy is before you start making worksheets for others. In order for there to be a fallacy in my post, I would need to be arguing something. I wasn't. I asked a question "why are you guys just dismissing his post" and then a statement " If you guys have othe citations or sources or figures to throw out to refute his premise, then send it. To just dismiss it and say it's all false doesn't seem right. " So keep looking your 0 for 10 you need for your worksheet.

To help you, I've linked a cite for the definition of a fallacy and how it works. Your welcome, sir.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

You answered the question, by saying that you are dismissing the numbers because you believe everything they put out is corrupt, since they have oversight from a committee.

I did not say that, and your interpretation takes my contention out of context, a fifth grader tactic. The source of the given figures is corrupt, as found by the Federal courts, further evidenced by the appointment of anti police corruption panels by the city and state. My personal beliefs have nothing to do with it.

A Google search for "New York City Police Corruption" netted thirty million six hundred thousand returns in .40 seconds.
 
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Primus

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I did not say that, and your interpretation takes my contention out of context, a fifth grader tactic. The source of the given figures is corrupt, as found by the Federal courts, further evidenced by the appointment of anti police corruption panels by the city and state. My personal beliefs have nothing to do with it.

A Google search for "New York City Police Corruption" netted thirty million six hundred thousand returns in .40 seconds.

Your fascination for the 5th grade kind of concerns me.

I'm confused again. I said you answered that you didn't believe the stats because the source (NYPD) was corrupt? How is that out of context? I even agreed with you on that premise.
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Your fascination for the 5th grade kind of concerns me.

I'm confused again. I said you answered that you didn't believe the stats because the source (NYPD) was corrupt? How is that out of context? I even agreed with you on that premise.

You construe my distaste for your fifth grade antics as a fascination? As far as you being confused again [yet, still].......the numbers were not arbitrarily dismissed, I dismissed them based on the probability that the were corrupt, considering the source, the source deemed corrupt by the courts and numerous city and state panels put in plce to deal with the corruption. You implied the numbers were dismissed out of bias.
 

Maverick9

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I think you can just table the statistics and focus on what seems to be happening and that is cops are shooting citizens when they could clearly CHOOSE NOT TO.

This is different that 'cops had to shoot 20 bad guys in a year'. Cops are shooting people who are low threat, no threat, by mistake, by willful action, and are avoiding other methods.

Culpeper shooting of an unarmed Sunday School teacher
Sterling Costco shooting of a 5'1" little Filipino woman with a paring knife
Old guy in his OWN garage shooting
14 yo kid with a toy gun shooting, from positions of cover with 10 seconds notice
Guy getting stuff out of his relative's car on their own property, shot.

That's six, and one where the cop had ABSOLUTELY NO FSKING BUSINESS drawing his firearms, much less pumping FIVE .45 rounds into a 108 lb woman in a grocery store standing by her food table (and also hitting his own partner with a ricochet, I might add).

In the first one - write her a ticket and mail it to her after taking down the license plate.
Second one, throw a blanket over her
Third, stand down and leave the scene if you are not sure
Fourth one, talk to the kid for an hour behind cover if you have to
Fifth, don't lie and say some guy lunged at you from getting something out of a car. (oh, IIRC, they shot seven times and hit him once in the foot)

So it's not the statistics, it the them vs us and anger entitlement issues.
 
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davidmcbeth

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Maverick,

By detailing specific and numerous instances of the police, which in your opinion, have gone overboard in a collective shooting spree, may lead moderators to come to the conclusion that you are a cop basher.

Quit telling the truth.

And have a happy Thanksgiving !
 

Primus

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I think you can just table the statistics and focus on what seems to be happening and that is cops are shooting citizens when they could clearly CHOOSE NOT TO.

This is different that 'cops had to shoot 20 bad guys in a year'. Cops are shooting people who are low threat, no threat, by mistake, by willful action, and are avoiding other methods.

Culpeper shooting of an unarmed Sunday School teacher
Sterling Costco shooting of a 5'1" little Filipino woman with a paring knife
Old guy in his OWN garage shooting
14 yo kid with a toy gun shooting, from positions of cover with 10 seconds notice
Guy getting stuff out of his relative's car on their own property, shot.

That's six, and one where the cop had ABSOLUTELY NO FSKING BUSINESS drawing his firearms, much less pumping FIVE .45 rounds into a 108 lb woman in a grocery store standing by her food table (and also hitting his own partner with a ricochet, I might add).

In the first one - write her a ticket and mail it to her after taking down the license plate.
Second one, throw a blanket over her
Third, stand down and leave the scene if you are not sure
Fourth one, talk to the kid for an hour behind cover if you have to
Fifth, don't lie and say some guy lunged at you from getting something out of a car. (oh, IIRC, they shot seven times and hit him once in the foot)

So it's not the statistics, it the them vs us and anger entitlement issues.

the first one, the dude was definitely a bad dude. He had problems BEFORE he ever got on the jon and shouldnt have been hired. http://reason.com/blog/2013/05/03/culpeper-cop-who-shot-and-killed-patrici
Second, throw a blanket over her? They TAZED HER first (non lethal first) and then she lunged at them with a BUTCHER knife and scissors...http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/0...lease-new-details-on-scott-s-death-92133.html

Fourth, the kid was yelled at from behind, they didn't even know he was a kid. The kid turned around and pointed the gun at them, so they shot him. That's what you call a tragedy. http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/national/dozens-march-remember-boy-killed-deputies/nbXW9/

The last one, not even sure because your too vague with your story.

Disclaimer: NOT SAYING THE GUYS WERE RIGHT FOR SHOOTING ANYONE. I'm showing that there is always more to the story. It's easy to Monday quarterback stuff and say someone shouda coulda woulda done something and then if they made a MISTAKE then label them as murderers. This doesn't apply to the first case, wasn't there but it appears he did shoot her for some stupid reason so he went to jail for it.

For those that agree and see every single one of these cases as a clear NO-Shoot situation... I hope your that good when you OC your pistol. The day may come when a deranged lady comes at you with a knife, apparently you should throw a blanket over her. Or a person may point a rifle at you, better wait to see if it fires bullets or pellets before you shoot and check his ID first before you shoot.

Again, to emphasize, the first case was definitely a bad shoot (from facts of the case I saw) and he should have and did go to jail. In fact, he should have been in jail longer. The other ones you posted weren't as clear of an example.

I hate to say it, but I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6. I can speak from knowing guys involved in a LOD shooting. The tazed a person, he still came at them STABBED the cop, they then shot in self defense. Again, if you carry a firearm on a daily basis for your personal protection you should look at these cases and really think about what would you do and then train to get better at responding. There is NEVER a bright neon sign that says "shoot!" or "don't shoot!".
 

Primus

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The Dallas shooting of the guy in the chair is a better example for your premise. I have no idea what they were thinking but they shouldn't have shot that guy.
 

Maverick9

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Second, throw a blanket over her? They TAZED HER first (non lethal first) and then she lunged at them with a BUTCHER knife and scissors...http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/07...ath-92133.html

Fourth, the kid was yelled at from behind, they didn't even know he was a kid. The kid turned around and pointed the gun at them, so they shot him. That's what you call a tragedy. http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/nation...eputies/nbXW9/

The last one, not even sure because your too vague with your story.

Thanks for the reply, but your analysis was based on slightly in-exact facts.

1. In the Sterling Costco shooting - They did NOT taze her. One officer fired a taser which did not work. I.e. the article infers that the tasing was ineffective, but the TRUTH is the taser malfunctioned. The second officer did nothing, he didn't pull HIS taser, he didn't shoot, the first officer tried his taser which did not work, and then HE SAYS she lunged at him with a knife and (allegedly) scissors. But the proof is in the specific details. The lady allegedly was upset, was waving her hands around, waving her scissors around and then went to another station and got a knife. We don't know the size of the knife, but she was waving it around. It's not corroborated that she 'lunged' at anyone.

The cops did NOT clear the store, they did not set up any kind of perimeter (after all if this is a dangerous perp, one who they might be FORCED to shoot, they should be standing back 10 feet, the store should be cleared). Yes, it's clear that you can't know how out of control it might get.

The officer(s) had two tasers, I would presume nightsticks, batons or PR-24s, pepper spray, and radios. Are YOU TELLING ME that shooting someone five times with a .40 or .45 caliber is the ONLY option for a 105lb, 5'2" Filipino woman an employee of COSTCO? If I'm a 6' 220lb cop wearing a vest and carrying two tasers, spray and a baton, I think I could take out a little 50 yo Filipino woman with one hand (a poke with a PR-24), while watching a video on my cell phone and yawning. COME ON. No hostage, no rampaging formidable perp. An upset grannie waving around tools from the job.

2. The kid was yelled at and may have had the weapon under his armpit, we don't know. He turned around and the barrel was oriented in the direction of the officers. That's a BIG DIFFERENCE than 'pointing' meaning sighting, at officers who were behind the door of their squads, and 25 feet away, and TEN SECONDS later they shot him six times. (probably one officer fired and they all joined in).

3. The last one, a guy was at his aunts and went out to her car to get something, a cell phone. The cops came up behind and called for him to turn around and he had something in his hand. He was on private property, it was a book or a cell phone, and was not pointed at them, they had gone to the wrong address. They shot at him six times and hit him once in the leg. They had no right being there, went to the wrong address, on private property and someone bending over getting something out of the car is not RAS for a burglary and orders to get prone. If you did this for everyone getting their stuff out of a car, no one would be safe. The cops should have backed off and called in and verified. Instead they went onto this property like stormtroopers. They realized that just turning around with a small item in hand was not enough so they added 'lunged at them'. The guy didn't lunge at them with a cell phone - COME ON. They clearly lied to cover up their mistake.

I all of these it was daylight, not raining, no distractions, plenty of TIME to back off and try to resolve or de-escalate. They ESCALATED as quickly as possible to a hail of bullets. This is what I'm saying is wrong.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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City of Bellingham tried to use the statistics we were under policed because similar sized cities like, Lynwood, Kent, and others had more cops......those cities have a higher crime rate so by using their logic cops increased crime...

People play with the numbers of statistics all the time. Look at what the anti-gun people do, once you start peeling away the layers, their motive becomes more clear and the assumed causation/corelation isn't there.
 
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Primus

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Thanks for the reply, but your analysis was based on slightly in-exact facts.

1. In the Sterling Costco shooting - They did NOT taze her. One officer fired a taser which did not work. I.e. the article infers that the tasing was ineffective, but the TRUTH is the taser malfunctioned. The second officer did nothing, he didn't pull HIS taser, he didn't shoot, the first officer tried his taser which did not work, and then HE SAYS she lunged at him with a knife and (allegedly) scissors. But the proof is in the specific details. The lady allegedly was upset, was waving her hands around, waving her scissors around and then went to another station and got a knife. We don't know the size of the knife, but she was waving it around. It's not corroborated that she 'lunged' at anyone.

The cops did NOT clear the store, they did not set up any kind of perimeter (after all if this is a dangerous perp, one who they might be FORCED to shoot, they should be standing back 10 feet, the store should be cleared). Yes, it's clear that you can't know how out of control it might get.

The officer(s) had two tasers, I would presume nightsticks, batons or PR-24s, pepper spray, and radios. Are YOU TELLING ME that shooting someone five times with a .40 or .45 caliber is the ONLY option for a 105lb, 5'2" Filipino woman an employee of COSTCO? If I'm a 6' 220lb cop wearing a vest and carrying two tasers, spray and a baton, I think I could take out a little 50 yo Filipino woman with one hand (a poke with a PR-24), while watching a video on my cell phone and yawning. COME ON. No hostage, no rampaging formidable perp. An upset grannie waving around tools from the job.

2. The kid was yelled at and may have had the weapon under his armpit, we don't know. He turned around and the barrel was oriented in the direction of the officers. That's a BIG DIFFERENCE than 'pointing' meaning sighting, at officers who were behind the door of their squads, and 25 feet away, and TEN SECONDS later they shot him six times. (probably one officer fired and they all joined in).

3. The last one, a guy was at his aunts and went out to her car to get something, a cell phone. The cops came up behind and called for him to turn around and he had something in his hand. He was on private property, it was a book or a cell phone, and was not pointed at them, they had gone to the wrong address. They shot at him six times and hit him once in the leg. They had no right being there, went to the wrong address, on private property and someone bending over getting something out of the car is not RAS for a burglary and orders to get prone. If you did this for everyone getting their stuff out of a car, no one would be safe. The cops should have backed off and called in and verified. Instead they went onto this property like stormtroopers. They realized that just turning around with a small item in hand was not enough so they added 'lunged at them'. The guy didn't lunge at them with a cell phone - COME ON. They clearly lied to cover up their mistake.

I all of these it was daylight, not raining, no distractions, plenty of TIME to back off and try to resolve or de-escalate. They ESCALATED as quickly as possible to a hail of bullets. This is what I'm saying is wrong.

This is where we differ my friend. I am no hero. So if a person is waving a knife at or around me and if I perceive someone lunging at me, they will get shot. That is why I made the statement about guys OCing. It is tragic that she was shot. I'm not even remotely saying she deserved it or kudos to them. I'm saying in the time and place when its your life on the line, are you going over the same thought process? Are you going to size the guy up and say "Hey I can just tackle this guy so I don't have to shoot him".

Also, have you heard the Tueller drill? This is good for all OC guys. LEO train with this. They recommend you need to be at LEAST 21 feet away from a person with a knife in order to not get stabbed. Recently they've been talking its even further. Again, I speak from personally knowing someone stabbed by a "kid" and then it was a shooting. Its not good.
 
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