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Thread: Tueller Drill

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Tueller Drill

    This topic came up when some guys were talking about defending your self against someone with a knife. I immediately thought of this drill and wasn't sure if other guys have tried it or heard of it.

    The Tueller Drill is basically a drill set up to demonstrate a person standing in front of you with a knife, Your firearm is holstered (OCd) and they decide to attack you. The study was done by a SGT withe the Salt Lake City PD and later by the FBI I believe. He basically timed people sprinting to a target and then timed people drawing and firing their firearm. He was able to come up with a distance of 21 feet. That means the person would need to be AT LEAST 21 feet away for you to have the time to draw your firearm and shoot effectively. Now think about this... 21 feet. that's pretty far. How often do people get within that range of you? I would say everyday day. If a person is walking towards you on the same side of the street , they will pass you within a few feet. If they decided to pull a knife and rob you from 3 feet away, what do you do? Essentially them being 3 feet away with a knife means you will get stabbed or cut before you ever fire a shot.

    Why does this matter? Two things. 1) TRAIN. Do this drill. I've posted a video of 1 version of the drill. They use a target on wheels and pull it towards the person. Simulates an attacker running at you. 2) It's important to realize how much distance matters when dealing with people.

    I encourage (challenge) you guys to try this...... Stand facing a target. Doesn't matter the distance. Have a person stand directly behind you holding a rag or heavy item. On their go, they will start sprinting away from you (safe direction away from down range). This will be your cue to draw your firearm and fire 2 shots into the target. Of the sound of the shots, the person running drops the rag or item. Turn around and see the distance from you. That is how far they have to be away for you to avoid getting stabbed. ADD a few feet to account for people still run when they are shot unless you get a prefect cranium shot.

    Also, this matters on how you carry your firearm. When you OC, do you use retention holster? What style? Where is your holster? Drop Leg? For those that use Cross Draw, you will see quickly why it's not a good idea with this drill. Do you ever CC on occasion? How do you carry that? Appendix carry? Inner Waist Band? On your hip or towards your back?

    Try all of these. After you try it a few times change it up. Stand there with your hands where you normally have them (either belt height, pockets, etc.) and "talk to the target". Train as if your telling that BG you have a frearm and you don't wan your family involved. Then just have the person run with no warning.

    I encourage guys to post your results from these drills in this thread. Even better post a video of it. I'll even attempt to kick it off by shooting a video of me and my guys this week and post it. Below is just one good example of this drill (not me).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmZj6dYrNzk

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    ? is: how many people have carried a gun and been stabbed?

    If its zero %, then the drill is meaningless.

    If its 50%, then the drill has meaning.

    One only has so much time to train .. focus on highest probable circumstances ...

    Is this one? I don't know.

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    That's a pretty narrow POV.

    OPie prolly saw my hypothetical in one of the Knockout Game threads and is positioning himself as a thoughtful authoritah. (a la 'Captain' Strother Martin from Cool Hand Luke)

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    Last edited by Nightmare; 11-27-2013 at 02:54 PM.
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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Some of your write up propagates many of the myths surrounding the Tueller drill, how it started, and what it means.

    The distance of 21 feet or 7 yards was not "arrived at" based on the results of the drill. 21' was one station on the shooting tests they were already using. The 21 feet distance was chosen purely at random in the beginning. Tueller wanted to see how fast a person could cover that distance.

    The mythical battle has grown to near biblical status. Like "a person within 21' WILL kill you with a knife..." In reality, all it showed was that an officer was justified in using deadly force if an assailant was within roughly 7 yards. But Tueller also, with the help of Mossad Ayoob, clarified that the distance was not set in stone based on the skill of the officer. They then developed the standard that an officer should try to draw and fire in less than 1.5 seconds to beat that time.

    There is no magic "you'll win" if you can draw that fast. And there are a lot of other techniques that have shown how to handle attackers as close as 3 feet. Funker Tactical has a series up where they pit a knife guy against a gun guy. Not that everyone is capable of handling the techniques, but it's pretty impressive to see the gun guy and what he does that you would probably never think of.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    Some of your write up propagates many of the myths surrounding the Tueller drill, how it started, and what it means.

    The distance of 21 feet or 7 yards was not "arrived at" based on the results of the drill. 21' was one station on the shooting tests they were already using. The 21 feet distance was chosen purely at random in the beginning. Tueller wanted to see how fast a person could cover that distance.

    The mythical battle has grown to near biblical status. Like "a person within 21' WILL kill you with a knife..." In reality, all it showed was that an officer was justified in using deadly force if an assailant was within roughly 7 yards. But Tueller also, with the help of Mossad Ayoob, clarified that the distance was not set in stone based on the skill of the officer. They then developed the standard that an officer should try to draw and fire in less than 1.5 seconds to beat that time.

    There is no magic "you'll win" if you can draw that fast. And there are a lot of other techniques that have shown how to handle attackers as close as 3 feet. Funker Tactical has a series up where they pit a knife guy against a gun guy. Not that everyone is capable of handling the techniques, but it's pretty impressive to see the gun guy and what he does that you would probably never think of.
    Well said and I agree. That's kind of why I figured why I would start the thread. There are many ways to skin a cat and the 21 feet is not perfect, it's a jumping off point. Again, like i mentioned depending on how you carry your gun, what hoslter, etc. etc. it changes dramatically. Some guys have never heard of this drill or the premise that it talks about, that's why I figured I'd throw it out there.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    ? is: how many people have carried a gun and been stabbed?

    If its zero %, then the drill is meaningless.

    If its 50%, then the drill has meaning.

    One only has so much time to train .. focus on highest probable circumstances ...

    Is this one? I don't know.
    Not sure exact numbers, but this cite says 348,846 people stabbed in US. Not sure over what time span. How many gun carrying guys? No idea. I'd rather not be the test case and avoid training due to "low probability".

    Better question is how many ARMED robberies. From experience, I'd say that the vast majority of robberies occurs with knives, not fingers, guns, cars, toy guns, hand in the pocket, etc.

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    I can agree it's unlikely for someone to charge you from 21' but trying new drills is fun and it can have potential real world application. The more situations you train for, I think the more likely you can adapt when a bad situation happens

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    The Tueller drill has some limitations:

    1. As pointed out, the distance was selected based on the standard range distance, and a person who could draw and sprint could cover a lot of ground in about 1.5 - 2 seconds.

    2. It's really only relevant in specific situations involving primarily LE. An officer might stop someone, inquire, get suspicious and perhaps begin a detainment. This might prompt the suspect to run - either at the officer or away. Now ask yourself, what kind of BG who is 21 feet away is going to run AT the officer, who might have a partner. Almost none. So as David says, 'does it happen?'

    3. One of the important things to take here is not the 'Time' factor but the distance and trajectory factors. If the "BG" doing the drill runs at the officer, and at a couple steps the officer starts running in a J-hook or even a perpendicular trajectory and does not try to draw his firearm quite yet, the guy with the knife will NEVER reach him. Once he has 'notification' (OODA Loop) the officer will be able to determine that the 'surprise factor' is nullified and he can begin his deployment and easily shoot the BG.

    4. Typically in LEO encounters he must be very, very close to the perp/suspect. He is almost required to get within arm's length to interview or begin the detainment. So, in 90% (guess) of LEO encounters, the BG will be 2-5 feet from him, NOT 21 feet. S

    Your average defensive LAC will never encounter this. They just need to be aware that:
    1. Deployment is almost everything in an encounter, and by that I mean 'pre-Deployment' to avoid that 2-3 step deficit in any ambush or surprise encounter.

    2. DO NOT deploy in the micro-seconds after the surprise attack, and reach for your gun too early, (LE especially note), because when you reach for your firearm you are a one-handed man trying to ward off a two handed angry BG. MAKE SPACE first. Push the guy down. You MUST be able to make the deployment (draw) quick but not so ingrained that you are stupidly one-handedly trying to reach the butt of your gun when you should be shoving the guy away with both hands. How to do this and make it an intelligent reflex, is something to ponder.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 11-27-2013 at 04:22 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Hmmm 21 foot rule? Why not talk about different calibers? Condition 1 or not? What type clothing to wear when OCing? CC or OC?

    No offense but all these have been talked to death on here, Obi-wan search the force.

    Maybe it is time to take up the flip flop or tacticool boots debate?
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    I can agree it's unlikely for someone to charge you from 21' but trying new drills is fun and it can have potential real world application. The more situations you train for, I think the more likely you can adapt when a bad situation happens
    I just want to say that IF you're going to do this drill use a Blue Gun and a wooden or padded wooden knife, or even a foam knife covered in a couple layers of duct tape.

    The BG with the foam duct tape knife should really be trying to stab the gunner. The gunner 'wins' if he gets front sights on target (and depending on the realism, doesn't drop his 'gun'.)

    DO NOT do this with a real gun, and also consider strongly wearing eye protection for any F-on-F drills. I had to take a student to the ER once for a serious eye poke.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 11-27-2013 at 04:28 PM.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    And if you conceal....even longer to draw....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    I just want to say that IF you're going to do this drill use a Blue Gun and a wooden or padded wooden knife, or even a foam knife covered in a couple layers of duct tape.

    The BG with the foam duct tape knife should really be trying to stab the gunner. The gunner 'wins' if he gets front sights on target (and depending on the realism, doesn't drop his 'gun'.)

    DO NOT do this with a real gun, and also consider strongly wearing eye protection for any F-on-F drills. I had to take a student to the ER once for a serious eye poke.
    The Teuller Drill is NOT a drill that you perform with a training partner coming at you with a knife in hand.

    At best it is an exercise you do. An exercise in drawing and getting a shot off in 1.5 seconds or less. Hopefully an exercise in getting an aimed (with no specific method of aiming specified or required) shot off in 1.5 seconds or less. An exercise in getting an aimed shot off (by any means that puts the round downrange safely) in 1.5 seconds or less - stance, grip, or other factors to be at the discretion of the shooter.

    Jelly Bryce, using what is now usually described as a crouching quarter-hip stance, was said to be able to draw and get a shot off in under .40 second and hit a target at 10 yards. http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html And he did it years before Teuller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    I just want to say that IF you're going to do this drill use a Blue Gun and a wooden or padded wooden knife, or even a foam knife covered in a couple layers of duct tape.

    The BG with the foam duct tape knife should really be trying to stab the gunner. The gunner 'wins' if he gets front sights on target (and depending on the realism, doesn't drop his 'gun'.)

    DO NOT do this with a real gun, and also consider strongly wearing eye protection for any F-on-F drills. I had to take a student to the ER once for a serious eye poke.
    By "front sights on target" do you mean actually lined up in a regular shooting stance? Because I'm willing to bet that if someone is charging me I can naturally point my gun at them and hit them without acquiring a "proper" sight picture.

    As for the the 21' rule, it's horribly flawed. It doesn't account for any defensive actions you take (such as backpedalling while drawing the weapon), nor does it account for one's ability to point and fire without a proper sight picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    ..., nor does it account for one's ability to point and fire without a proper sight picture.
    I hope that is still taught and trained point-shooting.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    --snipped--

    Jelly Bryce, using what is now usually described as a crouching quarter-hip stance, was said to be able to draw and get a shot off in under .40 second and hit a target at 10 yards. http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html And he did it years before Teuller.
    Jelly Bryce - a legend for all time like no other - truly one of a kind. IMHO he is/was the embodiment of the best of the best. RIP.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Jelly Bryce - a legend for all time like no other - truly one of a kind. IMHO he is/was the embodiment of the best of the best. RIP.
    Bob Mundon was faster, also RIP.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The Teuller Drill is NOT a drill that you perform with a training partner coming at you with a knife in hand.

    At best it is an exercise you do. An exercise in drawing and getting a shot off in 1.5 seconds or less. Hopefully an exercise in getting an aimed (with no specific method of aiming specified or required) shot off in 1.5 seconds or less. An exercise in getting an aimed shot off (by any means that puts the round downrange safely) in 1.5 seconds or less - stance, grip, or other factors to be at the discretion of the shooter.

    Jelly Bryce, using what is now usually described as a crouching quarter-hip stance, was said to be able to draw and get a shot off in under .40 second and hit a target at 10 yards. http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html And he did it years before Teuller.

    stay safe.
    +1,0000

    DO NOT have someone charge you. I tried explaining it step by step AND showed a video.

    Also, this was designed for and developed by LE (in varying degrees) but again.... if we OC to defend ourselves, then here's a way to defend yourself.

    Again, this is NOT about the "21 foot rule". 21 feet was an estimate. I broke it down and said there are 1,00 factors that will change the distance or reaction.

    As i said, the BEST way to test yourself is to do the drill in the very first post. You may see that you can do it in 6 feet or 30 feet depending on your rig or your skill level. That "distance" should be used as a BASELINE for your awareness level. If you know it takes you a long time/long distance to draw and fire, you better be scoping guys/situations out very far away.

    For those that for some reason are bashing it (not sure if it's because I posted it or just don't like to train) either try it and discuss your results, or move on. If you have TRIED it and don't like it, then post your experiences.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Hmmm 21 foot rule? Why not talk about different calibers? Condition 1 or not? What type clothing to wear when OCing? CC or OC?

    No offense but all these have been talked to death on here, Obi-wan search the force.

    Maybe it is time to take up the flip flop or tacticool boots debate?
    I searched the forum and didn't find anything other then a few mentions here and there. If it's been talked to death please link the thread its in.

    Again, it is not a "rule" its a guide. It just gets labeled as a rule.

    Finally, if you would like to have a caliber debate you can start the thread and start with a post debating for one side, I'll meet you over and gladly respectfully chime in. You CAN and SHOULD discuss all of those things in this thread or others, doesn't mean it negates the discussion of this drill or others.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    +1,0000

    DO NOT have someone charge you. I tried explaining it step by step AND showed a video.

    Also, this was designed for and developed by LE (in varying degrees) but again.... if we OC to defend ourselves, then here's a way to defend yourself.

    Again, this is NOT about the "21 foot rule". 21 feet was an estimate. I broke it down and said there are 1,00 factors that will change the distance or reaction.

    As i said, the BEST way to test yourself is to do the drill in the very first post. You may see that you can do it in 6 feet or 30 feet depending on your rig or your skill level. That "distance" should be used as a BASELINE for your awareness level. If you know it takes you a long time/long distance to draw and fire, you better be scoping guys/situations out very far away.

    For those that for some reason are bashing it (not sure if it's because I posted it or just don't like to train) either try it and discuss your results, or move on. If you have TRIED it and don't like it, then post your experiences.
    Listen, this is one of those subjects that comes up every six months that has been talked to death. People have known for decades, probably centuries that the closer a attacker gets the more dangerous he is. I was training hand to hand LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGG before there was a Tueller drill. Best odds for survival is NOT to get into a situation in the first place. If someone attacks from close everybody needs something more than just a gun, whether it is a cane, pepper spray, or hand to hand skills. A knife is not a good choice in a knife fight, YOU will get cut, and probably in a bad way.

    I posted not long ago that knife wielding suspects I would NEVER draw a gun at close range. The best option is running away, or rushing the attacker disabling the arm or hand with the knife. If one has a weapon such as a cane already in the hand one can beat the He!! out of the attacker. If knife attacks at close range are a concern, carry a cane, made out of heavy wood.

    But hand to hand schools and classes tend to upset the firearm trainers who believe a concealed firearm is the answer for every situation. Well it is a answer for their wallet.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 11-27-2013 at 07:44 PM.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    By "front sights on target" do you mean actually lined up in a regular shooting stance? Because I'm willing to bet that if someone is charging me I can naturally point my gun at them and hit them without acquiring a "proper" sight picture.

    As for the the 21' rule, it's horribly flawed. It doesn't account for any defensive actions you take (such as backpedalling while drawing the weapon), nor does it account for one's ability to point and fire without a proper sight picture.
    Front sight shooting is basically just pointing your front site on target and shooting. it negates the use of the rear sight so you don't need to get the sight alignment of it, just sight picture. This is used in very close situations. Point shooting is NO sights. As you described you can get a shot off in a target just by pulling and pointing. This depends on factors such as stance (prefer isoceles since it squares your body, not the funky weaver stuff) and whether your moving or stationary.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Listen, this is one of those subjects that comes up every six months that has been talked to death. People have known for decades, probably centuries that the closer a attacker gets the more dangerous he is. I was training hand to hand LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGG before there was a Tueller drill. Best odds for survival is NOT to get into a situation in the first place. If someone attacks from close everybody needs something more than just a gun, whether it is a cane, pepper spray, or hand to hand skills. A knife is not a good choice in a knife fight, YOU will get cut, and probably in a bad way.

    I posted not long ago that knife wielding suspects NEVER draw a gun at close range. The best option is running away, or rushing the attacker disabling the arm or hand with the knife. If one has a weapon such as a cane already in the hand one can beat the He!! out of the attacker. If knife attacks at close range are a concern, carry a cane, made out of heavy wood.

    But hand to hand schools and classes tend to upset the firearm trainers who believe a concealed firearm is the answer for every situation. Well it is a answer for their wallet.
    Ok, I get it. You don't like the drill or the idea. You made your case. For those that do still train then this thread is there for them. If you do have valuable training to share about hand to knife techniques, by all means start a thread and discuss it. I would honestly be open to different type so training.

    But, seeing as how this is a gun , and a OC sight, not sure a hand to hand combat techniques thread would be relevant.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Ok, I get it. You don't like the drill or the idea. You made your case. For those that do still train then this thread is there for them. If you do have valuable training to share about hand to knife techniques, by all means start a thread and discuss it. I would honestly be open to different type so training.

    But, seeing as how this is a gun , and a OC sight, not sure a hand to hand combat techniques thread would be relevant.
    I didn't say that, what I said is it has been talked to death and it is nothing new. Some people believe every situation is solved by drawing a gun, and that is not the case. MOST police officers learn that pulling a gun is not the only answer, seems funny you don't get that, or was not trained situation awareness, hand to hand, and using your noodle.

    I understand firearm instructors pushing close shooting training, they want the money. I am baffled at a police officer that with experience, you do have some time under your belt don't you? would advocate shooting as the answer to such situations.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I didn't say that, what I said is it has been talked to death and it is nothing new. Some people believe every situation is solved by drawing a gun, and that is not the case. MOST police officers learn that pulling a gun is not the only answer, seems funny you don't get that, or was not trained situation awareness, hand to hand, and using your noodle.

    I understand firearm instructors pushing close shooting training, they want the money. I am baffled at a police officer that with experience, you do have some time under your belt don't you? would advocate shooting as the answer to such situations.
    Please, I'm asking nicely, don't wreck this thread by bringing in a thousand UNRELATED things.

    1) NEVER said shooting is always the answer

    2) there is NO THREAD on this topic

    3) It's a method of training. It's a skill set. You can learn it AND learn kung fu.

    4) this thread has NOTHING to do with ME or my experience. I showed videos of other guys doing this drill, and cited that other guys designed it. So please leave me and my experience out of it, it's not relevant. Also, I asked for OTHER guys experience doing it or other methods.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Please, I'm asking nicely, don't wreck this thread by bringing in a thousand UNRELATED things.

    1) NEVER said shooting is always the answer

    2) there is NO THREAD on this topic

    3) It's a method of training. It's a skill set. You can learn it AND learn kung fu.

    4) this thread has NOTHING to do with ME or my experience. I showed videos of other guys doing this drill, and cited that other guys designed it. So please leave me and my experience out of it, it's not relevant. Also, I asked for OTHER guys experience doing it or other methods.
    You asked and I answered, as far as the topic I am on topic. The subject has been talked to death, and the concept is not new. When you post as a expert on a subject, YOU do make it about you. And I never said kung foo, you really should not lie. I said hand to hand skills, and other methods of defense. You did not offer that, only talked of the Tueller drill, so you brought nothing to the table of close range self defense, which would indicate that for you shooting seems to be the only answer.

    Some on this site, myself included do not look to shoot anybody or be in a shooting. Some of us carry OPENLY so we do NOT get into such a situation. You seem to be having a hard time grasping that. So unless you can show where it is a problem for OC of attacks from close range it is another one of those urban legends that OMG if you OC you will be shot first, your gun will be snatched, or you will be attacked at close range.

    BTW I am not aware of close range attacks of OCers, maybe you could cite some for us, you know keeping it on topic.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 11-27-2013 at 08:05 PM.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,201
    When the Thueller drill first came out I did some force on force training using cotton ball bullets (long before air soft or sims rounds.

    I saw every thing from rounds fired into the holster to rounds placed on target and every thing in between when the attacker rushed.

    I believe that the point of the drill was not to establish a distance but to make officers and others aware that a person with a edge or impact weapon even though they are out of arms reach can still be dangerous.

    The distance is not as important as the knowledge that a determined attacker with a contact weapon can still reach you and inflict damaged even feet away.

    Opening up the idea that just distance is not a sure thing one needs to consider drawing ones weapon, gaining distance, or getting objects like a car, table between you and the potential attacker to impede their attack.

    Instead of just standing there thinking that I just draw and shoot if one has to.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 11-27-2013 at 08:16 PM.
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