Tueller Drill

Grapeshot · Nov 30, 2013

Primus said:
Also, can we please put the "I OC so I'll never ever get attacked because it's never happened" thought to bed.

Richmond man killed while OCing. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470871

You talk about other guys "putting info out that may get guys hurt", yet your basically advocating that you don't even need to know how to DEFENSIVELY shoot a gun (completely different then just putting holes in a paper) and that it shouldn't even be DISCUSSED on this forum. OCing IS a deterrent, not doubt about it. It DOES NOT make you bullet proof.

Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.
Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.
"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.
According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/t...cle_970e24e7-dd5d-57e7-8fb8-a64a0a2b26ba.html

Mr. Tyler who was OCing for the first time, had a non active retension holster, got into a shoving match with a teenager known to him, gun fell out of the holster when Mr. Tyler went to the floor. Teen grabbed the gun and ran towards the coolers - Mr Tyler chased him and got shot for his effort.

He was not targeted for his gun. It was not snatched from his holster or his hand.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...rently-failed-Richmonder&highlight=tyler+shot

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...as-gun-taken-and-is-shot&highlight=tyler+shot

WalkingWolf · Nov 30, 2013

Primus said:
So be it, that's your opinion. I guess the video I showed of the top 10 (yes 10) people that were able to respond to an armed attacker by drawing, getting off the x and shooting them, are all "dead idiots". Your just making more blanket statements.

Again, either add something thats relevant to the topic of the thread of kick rocks. I'm not the topic of the thread, start your own "Primus is delisional" thread and I know a few guys will meet you over there. This isn't that thread. Thanks in advance.

Don't tell anyone how to post or respond, you do not have that authority. Go procreate yourself! Top 10 people, are you kidding me? LOL most people are not Bob Munden or the top 10, and honestly the likelihood of such attack is extremely rare. I never said you were delusional, but it is funny you bring it up, I will not argue that with you.

Primus · Nov 30, 2013

WalkingWolf.... shhh.....

Your twisting things and just getting wound up over nothing. I never said he was stabbed, i initially put shot while ocing, then I referenced guys getting attacked in general (he was the example). The only reference I made to a knife was referring to what OTHER guys were posting....

Your getting so wound up your not even reading whats being posted. Instead trying to furiously post and bash

Primus · Nov 30, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Mr. Tyler who was OCing for the first time, had a non active retension holster, got into a shoving match with a teenager known to him, gun fell out of the holster when Mr. Tyler went to the floor. Teen grabbed the gun and ran towards the coolers - Mr Tyler chased him and got shot for his effort.

He was not targeted for his gun. It was not snatched from his holster or his hand.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...rently-failed-Richmonder&highlight=tyler+shot

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...as-gun-taken-and-is-shot&highlight=tyler+shot

Well said, thank you for the explanation sir. As I stated before, I'll clarify again, my only premise was that he was attacked. Whether he started the shoving match or the teen did ( means he was attacked) I do not know nor pretend to know. Again, it was not a bash on method of carry, just trying to dispel the myth that IF you carry you will be inoculated against being attacked. Please disregard others trying to twist what was said and what was intended.

WalkingWolf · Nov 30, 2013

Primus said:
WalkingWolf.... shhh.....

Your twisting things and just getting wound up over nothing. I never said he was stabbed, i initially put shot while ocing, then I referenced guys getting attacked in general (he was the example). The only reference I made to a knife was referring to what OTHER guys were posting....

Your getting so wound up your not even reading whats being posted. Instead trying to furiously post and bash

LMAO you are coming off so foolish trying to convince people you are ninja cop that now you are trying to divert by making accusations. You refered to a knife and have through the whole thread. YOU brought the incident to try and bolster your claim that we will be attacked with a knife if we OC.

The incident does not relate to the Tueller drill, not in the least bit. He was not rushed, it was not a knife attack, not even a gun attack. As GS explained he was in a shoving match with somebody he knew. This has nothing to do with the attack while ocing phobia.

Primus · Nov 30, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
LMAO you are coming off so foolish trying to convince people you are ninja cop that now you are trying to divert by making accusations. You refered to a knife and have through the whole thread. YOU brought the incident to try and bolster your claim that we will be attacked with a knife if we OC.

Correct Wolf, I am a Ninja Cop. That's why I want you to train me in all of your hand to hand kung fu techniques you were spouting about knowing and using against armed individuals. Can I wear my funny split toed shoes when we train together? Just don't wear you firearm, it scares me so much I won't go near you. Also, seeing as how your basically saying training is never needed, I'm assuming you haven't shot the thing in 65 years, probably the last time you qualified with your PD (if you were able to).

Back to topic, does anyone actually train with retention techniques? I've gotta say it's one area I really don't spend any time on. Any one know a good drill? Besides using a blue gun and having someone grab it?

WalkingWolf · Nov 30, 2013

Primus said:
Correct Wolf, I am a Ninja Cop. That's why I want you to train me in all of your hand to hand kung fu techniques you were spouting about knowing and using against armed individuals. Can I wear my funny split toed shoes when we train together? Just don't wear you firearm, it scares me so much I won't go near you. Also, seeing as how your basically saying training is never needed, I'm assuming you haven't shot the thing in 65 years, probably the last time you qualified with your PD (if you were able to).

Back to topic, does anyone actually train with retention techniques? I've gotta say it's one area I really don't spend any time on. Any one know a good drill? Besides using a blue gun and having someone grab it?

I never said anything about kung foo training, you are a liar! While a lot of us do actually train for retention, it makes more sense than trying to outdraw a knife attacker as was your premise, most of us still do not lose sleep over it. And most of us believe training is the choice of the individual, not anybody else.

Grapeshot · Nov 30, 2013

Might as well take the opportunity to reissue the challenge as originally offered.

Show me one confirmable cite from anywhere in the USA in modern times, where an OCer has been targeted for his handgun and had it snatched. Note LEOs, security officers and military excluded. Might it happen one day - probably so, but when it does the resultant numerical ratio will likely look like this = .00001%

Same/similar challenge for an OCer preemptively being "taken out" as a result of the method of carry, but with even lower percentage ratio expected.

Neither is meant to imply that we have an invincibility nor can survive in the white zone, still..............

And gentlemen, if you please, leave any personal animosity outside of these pages. Thanks.

WalkingWolf · Nov 30, 2013

My apoligies GS, but as you know some newbie every six months or so brings these same tired claims to the site. It gets old, it has been hashed over and over again. And the simple fact is that at close range IF it were to happen it would be nothing like playing cops and robbers, it would be real. The will to survive and luck is what gives most people an edge. If likely attacked at a range closer than a person can draw and fire responsibly is not going to be changed by quick draw play. Now nothing against this, I competed in quick draw, that is not real life.

Even years after stop competing I am still faster than most people, and I still would not go for my gun on a close attack. People would be better off spending their time in learning to not get into situations in the first place. Which most of us do, most of us are not police officers or are no longer police officers. We do not have to put ourselves in those type of situations.

Training is a personal choice, and the type of training a personal choice. I am just fine with the public carrying with no training, as long as they handle their firearm responsibly and safely I don't believe it is anybodies business. It is interesting that the people who do play with such training are the ones who get injured(Tex Grubner).

Sorry if I find it tiresome to keep hearing of what we should do by some newbie, when there are no statistics that come even close to supporting it. It is a insult to all of to think we do not already know about training, and the Tueller drill. Members other than myself tried to tell him from the start that rush attacks on OCers so far is not a statistical problem. The chance of being killed in a car accident are higher. I am not ready to lock myself in a closet because of all the might be's. Because that is the only way to train for every little chance of getting hurt or killed out there.

Fuller Malarkey · Nov 30, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
My apoligies GS, but as you know some newbie every six months or so brings these same tired claims to the site. It gets old, it has been hashed over and over again. And the simple fact is that at close range IF it were to happen it would be nothing like playing cops and robbers, it would be real. The will to survive and luck is what gives most people an edge. If likely attacked at a range closer than a person can draw and fire responsibly is not going to be changed by quick draw play. Now nothing against this, I competed in quick draw, that is not real life.

Even years after stop competing I am still faster than most people, and I still would not go for my gun on a close attack. People would be better off spending their time in learning to not get into situations in the first place. Which most of us do, most of us are not police officers or are no longer police officers. We do not have to put ourselves in those type of situations.

Training is a personal choice, and the type of training a personal choice. I am just fine with the public carrying with no training, as long as they handle their firearm responsibly and safely I don't believe it is anybodies business. It is interesting that the people who do play with such training are the ones who get injured(Tex Grubner).

Sorry if I find it tiresome to keep hearing of what we should do by some newbie, when there are no statistics that come even close to supporting it. It is a insult to all of to think we do not already know about training, and the Tueller drill. Members other than myself tried to tell him from the start that rush attacks on OCers so far is not a statistical problem. The chance of being killed in a car accident are higher. I am not ready to lock myself in a closet because of all the might be's. Because that is the only way to train for every little chance of getting hurt or killed out there.

I think you sum up the differences in mindset. Most open carry people do so for DEFENSE. Our weapons are not necessarily our first and only option in defense, we don't have Qualified Immunity, and personally, killing will be my last option, not my first. My weapon is there if it comes to that.

The OP seems to have a mindset towards OFFENSE. Failure to comply = KILL. Surprised / scared = KILL.

Few of us legally can do that , few of us can throw down the "failure to comply" card and not end up convicted of a crime in court.

I have learned a lot about how NOT to have to use a weapon here. I'm very grateful for people like WW that stress that.

Primus · Dec 1, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Might as well take the opportunity to reissue the challenge as originally offered.

Show me one confirmable cite from anywhere in the USA in modern times, where an OCer has been targeted for his handgun and had it snatched. Note LEOs, security officers and military excluded. Might it happen one day - probably so, but when it does the resultant numerical ratio will likely look like this = .00001%

Same/similar challenge for an OCer preemptively being "taken out" as a result of the method of carry, but with even lower percentage ratio expected.

Neither is meant to imply that we have an invincibility nor can survive in the white zone, still..............

And gentlemen, if you please, leave any personal animosity outside of these pages. Thanks.

GS, your making the parameters extremely tight. For example, you requesting a case where he was targeted FOR the gun and it was snatched. How do you prove that? I would have to furnish a BG who was caught on camera stating "I did it for his gun". I never mentioned the premise that it would make you a target (especially not in this thread). This was not meant as a bash to anyone or anything. I explained the ONLY reason why I posted that article was to show that having an OCd firearm does NOT make you invincible, as you just said.

I'll even GIVE you the premise that if you are openly walking around and people can SEE the gun they will stay away form you. Too easy. How does that change when you are in a store that gets robbed? This is why I furnished multiple videos of REAL incidents. When you are in the store and it gets hit, they don't walk in and ask if your armed. They come in with a gun and go to town. There were 2 separate videos where the person with the OCd firearm was right by the door. The BGS came running in said door and the person had to react quickly. Both times they were able to and returned fire.

You can practice this same drill, but seated. Try it sometime. Sit down at a table and chair at the range. Have someone say go and see how and if you can draw from your rig and hit the target. Add the other person running AWAY and see the distance. Then practice and see the distance DROP. The whole point is to get better. I posted the video of the Father and Son trying this drill. They started at about 20 feet. Well after a few runs he was able to get it down to less then 10 feet he could draw and engage from concealed carry. Imagine if he was OCing. So for the guys that throw the 21 ft jokes around... it's exactly that a joke, You can do this drill in sub 10 feet. That is alot more realistic for distances dealing with BGs.

What about the guys on here that say they CC on occasion depending on where they go. I know for fact there were multiple guys who stated in a thread that they do on occasion.

What about when your in a restaurant eating with your wife. Bang in comes the BG trying to rob the place. How do you react? How do you even KNOW how to react unless you train (even a little). Worse, how do you know how to react if you just refuse to even acknowledge you may NEED to train. Your upstairs in the house, BG breaks in. He comes running up the stairs (towards you). There's a MILLION instances where drill with a person coming at you can help improve your skills and maybe save your life.

Again, these drills that were posted by myself and others are NOT just for KNIVES and certainly still apply to OCers. If you carry a gun, you should know how to use it. Not to bang nails, not as a paper weight, but in defense of yourself and your loved ones. We always fall on Natural Law and the right to life. You exercise that right by knowing how to defend yourself.

sudden valley gunner · Dec 1, 2013

MAC702 said:
First, no one here says that. There are important differences in what we say and your paraphrase which make all the difference.

Second, at the time he was killed, he wasn't OC'ing. He was unarmed and chasing the bad guys that stole his gun. Very critical difference.

Primus said:
GS, your making the parameters extremely tight. For example, you requesting a case where he was targeted FOR the gun and it was snatched. How do you prove that? I would have to furnish a BG who was caught on camera stating "I did it for his gun". I never mentioned the premise that it would make you a target (especially not in this thread). This was not meant as a bash to anyone or anything. I explained the ONLY reason why I posted that article was to show that having an OCd firearm does NOT make you invincible, as you just said.

I'll even GIVE you the premise that if you are openly walking around and people can SEE the gun they will stay away form you. Too easy. How does that change when you are in a store that gets robbed? This is why I furnished multiple videos of REAL incidents. When you are in the store and it gets hit, they don't walk in and ask if your armed. They come in with a gun and go to town. There were 2 separate videos where the person with the OCd firearm was right by the door. The BGS came running in said door and the person had to react quickly. Both times they were able to and returned fire.

You can practice this same drill, but seated. Try it sometime. Sit down at a table and chair at the range. Have someone say go and see how and if you can draw from your rig and hit the target. Add the other person running AWAY and see the distance. Then practice and see the distance DROP. The whole point is to get better. I posted the video of the Father and Son trying this drill. They started at about 20 feet. Well after a few runs he was able to get it down to less then 10 feet he could draw and engage from concealed carry. Imagine if he was OCing. So for the guys that throw the 21 ft jokes around... it's exactly that a joke, You can do this drill in sub 10 feet. That is alot more realistic for distances dealing with BGs.

What about the guys on here that say they CC on occasion depending on where they go. I know for fact there were multiple guys who stated in a thread that they do on occasion.

What about when your in a restaurant eating with your wife. Bang in comes the BG trying to rob the place. How do you react? How do you even KNOW how to react unless you train (even a little). Worse, how do you know how to react if you just refuse to even acknowledge you may NEED to train. Your upstairs in the house, BG breaks in. He comes running up the stairs (towards you). There's a MILLION instances where drill with a person coming at you can help improve your skills and maybe save your life.

Again, these drills that were posted by myself and others are NOT just for KNIVES and certainly still apply to OCers. If you carry a gun, you should know how to use it. Not to bang nails, not as a paper weight, but in defense of yourself and your loved ones. We always fall on Natural Law and the right to life. You exercise that right by knowing how to defend yourself.

You take cover first, assess and then see if it is worth engaging.

WalkingWolf · Dec 1, 2013

sudden valley gunner said:
You take cover first, assess and then see if it is worth engaging.

He still fails to get that the Tueller Drill was never about shooting faster, or without responsibility. It was about the distance that a firearm IS INEFFECTIVE.

sudden valley gunner · Dec 1, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
He still fails to get that the Tueller Drill was never about shooting faster, or without responsibility. It was about the distance that a firearm IS INEFFECTIVE.

Some will train the common sense right out.

WalkingWolf · Dec 1, 2013

For some every problem is a nail, and the answer is a gun(hammer).

GZ while not guilty could have saved himself a lot of trouble by using common sense. He clearly did not, and was the victim of a rush attack, he did not draw faster to survive. He managed to get very lucky and reach his sidearm while being pummeled. And then his life was HELLL for a couple years.

In the end a person with few or poor defense skills managed to survive, NOT because training to draw faster, but will to live, and luck, a whole lot of luck.

sudden valley gunner · Dec 1, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
For some every problem is a nail, and the answer is a gun(hammer).

GZ while not guilty could have saved himself a lot of trouble by using common sense. He clearly did not, and was the victim of a rush attack, he did not draw faster to survive. He managed to get very lucky and reach his sidearm while being pummeled. And then his life was HELLL for a couple years.

In the end a person with few or poor defense skills managed to survive, NOT because training to draw faster, but will to live, and luck, a whole lot of luck.

+1

Grapeshot · Dec 1, 2013

Primus said:
GS, your making the parameters extremely tight. For example, you requesting a case where he was targeted FOR the gun and it was snatched. How do you prove that? I would have to furnish a BG who was caught on camera stating "I did it for his gun". I never mentioned the premise that it would make you a target (especially not in this thread). This was not meant as a bash to anyone or anything. I explained the ONLY reason why I posted that article was to show that having an OCd firearm does NOT make you invincible, as you just said.

--snipped--.

The parameters are tight for reasons.

Leos, security officers and military are not of the same carry group, who by there job description are exposed to different conditions, than open carrying regular private people.

"In the USA" was a restriction because that's where we are - other countries are not relevant to the quest.

As the primary reason - yep, I so restrict and it's not that hard to determine if another motivation were present. If part of an armed robbery where a wallet and cell phone were stolen, it is likely that the BG did not see the gun at first. Several valiant attempts have been made to cite OC gun snatches, but all have been disproven or proved to have been falsely reported.

.CCers have had their gun taken also in robberies, but the loss of the gun isn't used to explain why one should not carry in that manner - so we have a one sided discussion.

Then there are a vast number of largely anecdotal references to an OCd handgun stopping a bad happening from actually going down, but a number of them have been quite well documented by other witnesses. I personally know of quite a few, including a couple of personal experiences where there was zero doubt.

There are numerous videos and reports of an OCer being involved in stopping a SHTF situation. One such is the Golden Market robbery/shooting where the BG rushed in right passed an OCing good guy and shot the store owner.
http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?77796-The-Golden-Market-Shooting

Here are a few mass killings stopped by a good guy with a gun:
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/12/mass-killings-stopped-by-armed-citizens-2515074.html

Bottom line is that by and large an OC'd gun does not make the odds of your becoming a victim measurably any greater AND it is an effective deterrent. A CCd gun OTOH does nothing to tell the world, "This is a bad place to start trouble."

Any training is good. The benefits of training is limited to the course as presented. Even multiple courses from nationally recognized schools will not prepare one for all eventualities. Training should not be required to allow one to defend oneself - it is not required to OC in Virginia.

Richieg150 · Dec 2, 2013

Everybody has an opinion, and theirs as far as they are concerned, is the right one, right or wrong. I have used the Tueller drill working with students to show 1. how much ground someone can cover running at you, 2. just how long it takes to get 2 round off from a holstered firearm, 3. just how inaccurate those 2 rounds are. Its always an eye opener when they see the results. I have the student face the target, another student place their hand on that students shoulder and when the student removed his hand to move in the opposite direction, they draw and fire 2 rounds at the target. When the person moving away hears the shot they drop one of two tent stakes they have, after the 2nd shot they drop the 2nd tent stake and stop. It is an eye opener.

davidmcbeth · Dec 2, 2013

If your attacker is Keanu Reeves , you're dead no matter what ...

He knows Kung Fu

Primus · Dec 2, 2013

Richieg150 said:
Everybody has an opinion, and theirs as far as they are concerned, is the right one, right or wrong. I have used the Tueller drill working with students to show 1. how much ground someone can cover running at you, 2. just how long it takes to get 2 round off from a holstered firearm, 3. just how inaccurate those 2 rounds are. Its always an eye opener when they see the results. I have the student face the target, another student place their hand on that students shoulder and when the student removed his hand to move in the opposite direction, they draw and fire 2 rounds at the target. When the person moving away hears the shot they drop one of two tent stakes they have, after the 2nd shot they drop the 2nd tent stake and stop. It is an eye opener.

This does work well to put an actually visual on the distance you can work in. We talk numbers of feet but its irrelevant until you see it. The thought process isn't supposed to be "ok that guy is exactly 12 feet 8 inches from me so if he can run the 40 in 10 seconds then I can hit him effectively if he runs the 40 in 8 seconds I'm screwed." As you said its an eye opener when u put real people at real distances.

One step above is using the blue gun and or airsoft guns. Not sure if you use air soft but its an amazing training tool for your students. Having a person running at you and have a safe tool such as an air soft clock is a great way to get that mind set.

I remember reading in a book ( on killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman) he described how the most effective training tool the military used was the change from bulls eyes to human silhouettes. It was the visualization that is the key for success in combat (whether that be your local coffee shop or Baghdad).

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