Do You Carry Chambered?

Well,,,

When my 1911 or Star Modelo Super are just laying around the house,
on the chair next to where im sitting,
or the table near where im sleeping,
I keep them in condition 2...

OTOH,, when I go to town to shop and run my errands,
Ill be carrying one of those, cross draw, in condition 1!
untill im back in the house...

Nightmare said:

Yes, I keep al three of my pistols with a round chambered.

My CCW H&K USPc .40 Condition Two,
My SA1911A1 Condition One and my
Interarms Mauser Luger in its 'condition two' (full magazine, round chambered, toggle-bolt closed, not cocked, useless safety off).

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a question for nightmare,,, I want to know how you can decock a luger?
if you could do that,, wouldnt the firing pin be pressing against the primer of a loaded cartridge in the barrel?
if it didnt go off,, how do you recock the firing pin with out toggling in another fresh cartridge?

Seriously,,, that makes as much sense as trying to carry a glock or an XD in condition 2!
those conditions dont exist in those guns!

1245A Defender said:

When my 1911 or Star Modelo Super are just laying around the house,
on the chair next to where im sitting,
or the table near where im sleeping,
I keep them in condition 2...

OTOH,, when I go to town to shop and run my errands,
Ill be carrying one of those, cross draw, in condition 1!
untill im back in the house...




a question for nightmare,,, I want to know how you can decock a luger?
if you could do that,, wouldnt the firing pin be pressing against the primer of a loaded cartridge in the barrel?
if it didnt go off,, how do you recock the firing pin with out toggling in another fresh cartridge?

Seriously,,, that makes as much sense as trying to carry a glock or an XD in condition 2!
those conditions dont exist in those guns!

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Did you just seriously question nightmare about a firing pin pressing against the primer of a loaded cartridge.......after telling us you keep your 1911 in condition 2 around the house?

How do you decock a 1911? Similar to how you do it for a luger? By pulling the trigger and hoping your thumb doesn't slip?

Or....do you mean that you keep it in condition 3, with the chamber empty?

Because that seems like a lot of unecessary handling. Where do you keep your chambered round whenever you remove it from the pistol? Do you carry it around with you everywhere so you can use it by chambering another round, removing the magazine, and replacing the round you carry around with you? Or, do you simply leave your magazine -1 so you can simply reload the round you remove from the chamber when you remove it to go condition 3? (You are familiar with the phenomena of "round compaction" caused by frequent chambering and rechambering of the same round, right? It's where the chambering process seats the bullet deeper into the case over a period of time causing the powder to achieve a compressed charge raising the chamber pressure to dangerous levels. I thought this was malarky when I first heard of it..........until I measured the overall length of my chambered round. Was I ever surprised by what I found.)

Or, if you really did mean condition 2 as you state, explain how your "decocked" 1911 safely gets that way, and how it doesn't leave the firing pin resting on a live primer such as you chastised nightmare for.

definitely ready to rock

I have been carrying for over a year now and carry open most of the time, except at work. My firearms are always loaded and when I say loaded that includes one chambered. I only unload them to clean them or of corse after emptying down range. IMO if its not chambered then the odds of being in my favor are drastically reduced, and agree that it is similar to waiting to put on your seat belt before the accident. If you are going to attempt to be prepared and not follow thru, whats the point? Also chambering and unchambering, holstering and unholstering can increase the chance of accidental or negligent discharge and also repeatedly chambering the same round can wear on that round. And a good holster will protect the trigger.

Though I agree telling someone "whatever your comfortable with" is courteous, it is actually a dis service and sets people up for a fall. If someone is in a situation that can not only be detrimental to themselves but to others, then doing whatever you "feel" is not ok but only an illusion and at some point will eventually if not sooner rather than later prove futile. I could go on and on but will only use one example, if a person is comfortable with playing in the street ( maybe they live on a dead end), then one day over at a friends playing in the yard (being complacent, and comfortable) runs out into the street to avoid getting tackled, gets tackled by the car he didn't think about. Theres part of the training factor now, just because you may be comfortable, if you are training wrong (no matter how good it feels) when the time comes you'll be wrong or will do it wrong and could prove fatal.

Get familiar with your weapons and drill safety into your head, like keeping you finger off the trigger until ready to shoot, always point downrange, always being aware of what is downrange, always treating a gun as loaded even after you check it, etc.. As stated before train, practice, train. Its your life are you prepared to be a victor or are you prepared to be a victim?

The firing pin on a 1911 or a Star Super does not rest on the primer of a round in condition 2. The FP on those models are inertia firing pins, with a hammer at rest the FP is slightly below the surface of the breach face NOT touching the primer, it takes a hard strike of the hammer for the FP to make contact with the primer. The only other way for the inertia FP to make contact is by dropping the handgun on the muzzle, which will because of physics force the FP forward. Not even dropping on the hammer will fire the 1911. And then some 1911s are fitted with a FP block which means they can only fire when the trigger is pulled. Others use a lightened FP that the only way to fire by dropping is climbing a tall ladder.

1245A Defender said:

a question for nightmare,,, I want to know how you can decock a luger?
if you could do that,, wouldnt the firing pin be pressing against the primer of a loaded cartridge in the barrel?
if it didnt go off,, how do you recock the firing pin with out toggling in another fresh cartridge?

Seriously,,, that makes as much sense as trying to carry a glock or an XD in condition 2!
those conditions dont exist in those guns!

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NOTE: I'm not arguing with you; I agree there isn't much sense in doing so but....

Technically, condition 2 could exist in a Glock* as you described:
Disassemble the pistol and put a live round in the chamber and then reassemble. Voilà!, Condition 2 with a live round beneath the uncocked striker.

Why anyone would want to do that... is another story. I don't think that I'd want to try and depend on pulling the slide back just enough to cock the striker and not partially eject the round in the chamber in a emergency. It's just too tempting for misfortune to ignore the opportunity.

*Not familiar enough with XD or the Luger P-08 to give a definitive answer.

Fallschirmjäger said:

NOTE: I'm not arguing with you; I agree there isn't much sense in doing so but....

Technically, condition 2 could exist in a Glock* as you described:
Disassemble the pistol and put a live round in the chamber and then reassemble. Voilà!, Condition 2 with a live round beneath the uncocked striker.

Why anyone would want to do that... is another story. I don't think that I'd want to try and depend on pulling the slide back just enough to cock the striker and not partially eject the round in the chamber in a emergency. It's just too tempting for misfortune to ignore the opportunity.

*Not familiar enough with XD or the Luger P-08 to give a definitive answer.

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A Glock CLEARLY was not designed to be carried condition 2, or the Glock would have a hammer with thumb spur, instead of a striker. Colt actually made semi autos that were designed to be carried condition 1 only or empty chamber. They still had a hammer though spur-less and shrouded. The first semi autos that colt made had no thumb safety. The forerunner to the 1911, the 1910 colt was sans thumb safety. With no safety, most consensus it is not safe to carry cocked, and ready to fire.

Are you referring to series 80 1911's?

Because it sounds like you're arguing semantics concerning series 70's. Sure, there's a smidge of room between the primer and pin due to the spring, so technically, yes, it isn't resting ON the primer. I guess that makes it perfectly safe. We can probably just assume standing up and striking the hammer on the edge of a table top, or the arm of a chair won't result in a ND. Yep. Hope for the best. It's probably fine since you aren't on top of a ladder. Hope: always a good method of firearm safety.

Of course, we haven't heard any opinions concerning my other question: How does one safely achieve condition 2 on a 1911? By using the elusive "1911 decocker", or as is much more likely, are we back to the 'ol "hope" method once again: "I hope my finger doesn't slip off the hammer."?

Superlite27 said:

Are you referring to series 80 1911's?

Because it sounds like you're arguing semantics concerning series 70's. Sure, there's a smidge of room between the primer and pin due to the spring, so technically, yes, it isn't resting ON the primer. I guess that makes it perfectly safe. We can probably just assume standing up and striking the hammer on the edge of a table top, or the arm of a chair won't result in a ND. Yep. Hope for the best. It's probably fine since you aren't on top of a ladder. Hope: always a good method of firearm safety.

Of course, we haven't heard any opinions concerning my other question: How does one safely achieve condition 2 on a 1911? By using the elusive "1911 decocker", or as is much more likely, are we back to the 'ol "hope" method once again: "I hope my finger doesn't slip off the hammer."?

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No it will not discharge, the hammer cannot push it forward into the primer because the FP is not resting on the primer. A rap or a drop on the hammer will result in the FP being driven against the hammer, because it is under spring pressure, and already resting on the hammer it does not rebound into the primer. That is also why when dropped on the muzzle a non blocked FP model can fire. Remember the FP on a 1911 is not a positive FP, it is a inertia FP. It must be hit with considerable force to dimple the primer. If you own a revolver try this experiment, put a pencil in a 1911 eraser towards pin. Pull the trigger. The 1911 pencil should travel around 20 feet, if not something is wrong. On most revolvers the pencil will move a few inches. The force of the hammer when it falls is considerable, it strikes a FP in a fully rearward position, driving it forward to go past the breech-face into the primer. When the hammer is at rest it is fully at rest against the rear of the slide, there is no momentum. It is not rocket science but it is basic physics.

I have explained numerous times HOW one safely decocks a 1911, I get tired of going over it, it is mostly common sense. If a 1911 was not designed to have the hammer lowered or be cocked there WOULD BE NO SPUR. In fact the army mode of carry WAS condition 2, then condition 1. BTW series 80 colts are not the only 1911's with a blocked FP.

So how does one carry a 1910 colt semi auto cocked and locked? Ya know the semi auto made before the 1911 but sans thumb safety.

Superlite27 said:

...we haven't heard any opinions concerning my other question: How does one safely achieve condition 2 on a 1911? By using the elusive "1911 decocker", or as is much more likely, are we back to the 'ol "hope" method once again: "I hope my finger doesn't slip off the hammer."?

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Even if decocking were an intended option, it was done in a less-litigious society that didn't care so much if an occasional round went into the desert (or more likely the floor of the locker room of the cop shop). Can it be done "safely," though, with care? I would say relatively yes.

Keep in mind that military pistols may not always have been designed for function alone, but at certain whims (good or bad) of decision-makers.

What is more interesting is that there are several more modern designs like the CZ-75 and CZ-82 which do have the option of lowering the hammer to carry for a double-action first shot. Yet these, too, do not have decockers.

MAC702 said:

Even if decocking were an intended option, it was done in a less-litigious society that didn't care so much if an occasional round went into the desert (or more likely the floor of the locker room of the cop shop). Can it be done "safely," though, with care? I would say relatively yes.

Keep in mind that military pistols may not always have been designed for function alone, but at certain whims (good or bad) of decision-makers.

What is more interesting is that there are several more modern designs like the CZ-75 and CZ-82 which do have the option of lowering the hammer to carry for a double-action first shot. Yet these, too, do not have decockers.

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I was aware of the CZ-82 and should have brought it up. Plus decockers came along well after the 1910 colt. The Tokorov was designed without a decocker or a thumb safety. One was added so the guns could be imported to the US. And on top of it they used a positive firing pin leaving condition 2 out of the mix.

I'm not a 1911 expert - far from it, though I do own one. Personally I'd rather have to run the slide than cock it as running the slide is more of a gross movement that could be reasonably be expected to be performed successfully even with your system pumped full of adrenaline.

That said, I have decocked a 1911 over a live round in a way I feel is reasonably safe so here's my two cents. Note: mine is a Series 90.

When I train students to decock a revolver I teach the thumb interposition technique. With that technique the thumb of the support hand is placed between the hammer and the frame and the strong side hand is used to pull the trigger and ease the hammer down a bit - then you release the trigger, remove the interposed thumb, and finish lowering the hammer. If you slip at this point it doesn't matter (on modern guns) because the trigger is no longer pulled.

On the 1911 you can't do that because if you use the strong side index finger to pull the trigger and the strong side thumb to control the hammer you will no longer have the grip safety depressed. On the 1911 I modify the technique and use the support side index finger for interposition and the support side thumb for hammer control and use the strong side index finger to pull the trigger. As soon as the support side thumb eases the hammer off the notch the strong side index finger releases the trigger. At this point the support side thumb is controlling the hammer and the support side index finger is in interposition (see photo). Since the index finger is jammed between the hammer and the slide, there should be no way for the hammer to fall and strike the firing pin during the brief time the trigger is pulled. With the trigger now released you can then use any variety of methods to safely finish lowering the hammer.

This is for a Series 90. For a gun where a slip of the hammer could discharge the weapon even if the trigger were not in the pulled position, then I would argue that you should never attempt to de-cock that firearm over a live round. Like I said, I think I'd be faster and more confident getting into firing mode from condition 3 than from condition 2 - but on a 1911 that will come at the cost of 1 round of capacity and 1911's don't have many of those to spare.

All this underscores why I own Glocks for actual defensive use. I own the 1911 more as a piece of historical interest and to show students how a single action pistol works.

It is very easy to lower the hammer safely on the 1911 using a blocking finger or thumb, same way a hammer is lowered on a SA Army if when cocked it was not fired. Or a DA revolver. The hammer is blocked by bone and skin and lowered by gradually unblocking and lowering with other digit. It is very simple concept, probably the reason Browning put a spurred hammer on the 1910 and 1911.

In the end run each individual person's responsibility is each individual person. Not this board, not the government, or some self appointed watchdog for 1911 carry. To each their own.

Thanks, Brian. I didn't want to type all that, so I'm glad you did!

That said, we need to remember that we talk about stuff on the Internet far more often than we should. It gives too much weight to issue which shouldn't be an issue at all (like the federal GFSZA, ha ha).

I've carried a 1911 for most of the last twenty years. The only time I've ever decocked one was to show someone how to do it if it became necessary.

The only reason it is a modern issue is because of appearance. The only two times I've actually had someone feel they should say something to me about my hammer being cocked was by other customers at a gun shop! I asked one of them what he carries: a Springfield Armory XD(m). I wonder if he knows his striker is always cocked?

Diversity, diversity. My EDC is a CZ82, round chambered hammer down, and safety off. DA and great in a fobus paddle. Lately I have been EDCing a full size 1911 in a fobus paddle. That one I carry round chambered, hammer back, safety on.
Wear what you want, the way you want to carry it.

MSG Laigaie said:

Diversity, diversity. My EDC is a CZ82, round chambered hammer down, and safety off. DA and great in a fobus paddle. Lately I have been EDCing a full size 1911 in a fobus paddle. That one I carry round chambered, hammer back, safety on.
Wear what you want, the way you want to carry it.

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+1

Why won't anyone just say it like it is. Carrying without a round in the chamber is certainly your right...but its stupid. You should respect your firearm not fear it. If you are not comfortable enough to carry your firearm with a round in the chamber you need to become more proficient or leave it at home. Chances are you will never need to pull your pistol from its holster with intent, but if you ever do need it there is a great possibility you will get yourself or whomever you are trying to protect shot while you are trying to chamber a round. Sorry to be blunt and there are exceptions to every rule but I have met and talked to several people who carried without a round chambered, not one of them new what the hell they were doing.

DFArcher said:

Why won't anyone just say it like it is. Carrying without a round in the chamber is certainly your right...but its stupid. You should respect your firearm not fear it. If you are not comfortable enough to carry your firearm with a round in the chamber you need to become more proficient or leave it at home. Chances are you will never need to pull your pistol from its holster with intent, but if you ever do need it there is a great possibility you will get yourself or whomever you are trying to protect shot while you are trying to chamber a round. Sorry to be blunt and there are exceptions to every rule but I have met and talked to several people who carried without a round chambered, not one of them new what the hell they were doing.

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OK I will say it, worrying about the private matters of others is stupid! If liberty of others bugs such people they should hide in a closet and leave the rest of liberty loving society alone.

I equate carrying a cambered round to carrying a revolver. There is always a round ready. If you carry unchambered would you leave one cylinder empty in a revolver and have that cylinder lined up with the barrel?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

DamnYankeeOk said:

I equate carrying a cambered round to carrying a revolver. There is always a round ready. If you carry unchambered would you leave one cylinder empty in a revolver and have that cylinder lined up with the barrel?

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Well, the one next-in-line with a revolver, as that's the one that will line up when the hammer goes back. In olden days they used to leave the chamber under the hammer empty on single actions, but that was because there was no hammer blocking safety and a sharp rap to the hammer on a single action could ignite the primer beneath the hammer.

I don't really see any advantage to it on a modern design, it's just needlessly handicapping yourself at a time when time is quite likely to be 'of the essence'.

DFArcher said:

Why won't anyone just say it like it is. Carrying without a round in the chamber is certainly your right...but its stupid. You should respect your firearm not fear it. If you are not comfortable enough to carry your firearm with a round in the chamber you need to become more proficient or leave it at home. Chances are you will never need to pull your pistol from its holster with intent, but if you ever do need it there is a great possibility you will get yourself or whomever you are trying to protect shot while you are trying to chamber a round. Sorry to be blunt and there are exceptions to every rule but I have met and talked to several people who carried without a round chambered, not one of them new what the hell they were doing.

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I'm pretty sure we all did actually say everything you said above, we just said it in a way that was more likely to be received constructively and heeded.