Open carry and loss prevention

Skid I would load up a cart and just leave it, I mean load it to the very top of the cart and then some. Why waste time with the customer service desk. I have never done this but I have seen other customers do it when they are being ignored.

Mongoose72 said:

Skidmark,

You have a lot of good ideas in your posting. I am curious whether you would let a group of such people tackle you and disarm you or if you would draw.

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Did I miss where they tackled and disarmed you Mongoose.

We had a member here once that did just that as security guard. I don't remember if he got jail time but he was convicted.

These what if scenarios get out of hand sometimes.

peter nap said:

Did I miss where they tackled and disarmed you Mongoose.

We had a member here once that did just that as security guard. I don't remember if he got jail time but he was convicted.

These what if scenarios get out of hand sometimes.

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Nothing physical happened. Like I said the 300 lbs guy walked from across one side of the jewelry counter about 20 feet away from me to being less then 5 feet from me I took a step back while the other one was asking me if "that was my gun; because they sold ones just like it". I am sure if I was passive and cooperative they intended to disarm me. Once disarmed they can do what they want with you. I don't like to do too much in the what ifs; but these are events which have already happened. I know also that if you don't have a plan of action and self defense planned out ahead of time that you will fail to act when it actually does occur as most scenarios play out in less than 2 seconds.

Mongoose72 said:

Nothing physical happened. Like I said the 300 lbs guy walked from across one side of the jewelry counter about 20 feet away from me to being less then 5 feet from me I took a step back while the other one was asking me if "that was my gun; because they sold ones just like it". I am sure if I was passive and cooperative they intended to disarm me. Once disarmed they can do what they want with you. I don't like to do too much in the what ifs; but these are events which have already happened. I know also that if you don't have a plan of action and self defense planned out ahead of time that you will fail to act when it actually does occur as most scenarios play out in less than 2 seconds.

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I have never heard of a LP(non police officer) disarming a citizen ever. Now it may have happened, but I just have never heard of it. If you are talking Walmart their rules for LP have changed considerably. They no longer stop patrons leaving the store demanding receipts, they no longer demand personal information when the buzzer goes off at the door and the patron has clearly paid for an item.

Our Walmart had a over enthusiastic LP at one time, he has been long gone, probably because he got into it with a LEO. But then this LP was one of those guys who run around with cuffs. Seldom do we run into problems in any Walmart we visit.

Mongoose72 said:

Nothing physical happened. Like I said the 300 lbs guy walked from across one side of the jewelry counter about 20 feet away from me to being less then 5 feet from me I took a step back while the other one was asking me if "that was my gun; because they sold ones just like it". I am sure if I was passive and cooperative they intended to disarm me. Once disarmed they can do what they want with you. I don't like to do too much in the what ifs; but these are events which have already happened. I know also that if you don't have a plan of action and self defense planned out ahead of time that you will fail to act when it actually does occur as most scenarios play out in less than 2 seconds.

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Hopefully you aren't related to someone named Badger.

To answer your question, your plan needs to be when you can and should use your gun. That means shoot someone. It's not a good intimidation tool.

If the fellows intend to kill or do grievous harm to you or your wife, you can shoot them.

Otherwise leave it in your holster.

I seriously doubt they intend to do so in the middle of Walmart. Do you want to start a shootout with your pregnant wife there when it's unnecessary?

If they are a problem....leave.
If they unlawfully detain or assault you, call the cops. Then call a good civil litigation attorney and retire to Tahiti where the women don't wear no tops.

Do a search for Dan Moore. Over zealous security guards aren't tolerated in the courts.

If you've already made up your mind to wave your gun around whenever someone disturbs you....stay on your side of the fall line.

Response to Nap

It is against walmart policy and probably almost all others store's policies to confront armed people; so any such confrontation would be breaking their own rules. I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I have no intention of waving a gun around. In order to be detained you would have to be disarmed. I personally won’t allow someone other than a LEO to disarm me. I guess that we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Type in loss prevention on youtube and watch all of the videos of LP body slamming women before deciding if you should entrust the safety of your wife and kids to their judgment. There have also been numerous examples of them raping women as well:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/tabbasum-gilani-kmart_n_3423392.html
I have no intention in ever having to use my gun. I know also that I have a higher standard for self defense as I am still reasonably young and due to my size. I am not some young punk looking for an excuse, rather I am just a normal guy who has been put into some bad situations due to some very stupid people.

There you go then. You answered your own question.

Mongoose72 said:

Skidmark,

You have a lot of good ideas in your posting. I am curious whether you would let a group of such people tackle you and disarm you or if you would draw. I think that when you are armed and attacked by non-LEO goons you have no idea of the outcome. They could easily use your own gun on you and claim that they were just defending themselves. From your previous postings I assume that you would defend yourself as it has risen to the level of justifiable self defense? Am I right? I know that I would never allow a group of men to assault my wife pregnant or not. I would probably start by pushing them off her; but if a wrestling match starts and I am outnumbered the gun would be coming out. I also know full well that defending your family against security could be a legal nightmare which I hope never occurs. However, if you aren't willing to use your firearm to defend yourself or your family then you really shouldn't be wearing a firearm as it could easily be used against you. My 2 cents.

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First - let me make it clear that I have not read any of the posts between your question above and this response. What others have written may have some impact on any conclusion you reach reading this.

Presuming they are Loss Prevention, would I let them tackle me and disarm me? You betcha!

There is a difference between LP tackling and disarming me and LP beating me.

There is a difference between LP tackling and disarming me or tackling and beating me and LP detaining me by requesting that I surrender to their authority.

And I know something that they do not but will most likely wish they had known beforehand. I am what is generally described as "medically fragile" - what they migt get away with doing to anybody else may result in undesired consequences that will bring much grief to them if they are less than polite and restrained in their handling of me.

They whoever they are) could claim they were merely defending themselves against me, but they would need to prove they were innocent of instigation. Thus the suggested statements/questions in my previous post as well as the audio recording of the entire event. If things start to head southwards I will start a running narrative of what is taking place. They may think I am conversing with someone via cellphone/bluetooth, or they may realize that the crowd that I have hopefully drawn nearby will be hearing my comments, or they may disregard any of those possibilities. Not my problem.

As for your comments about protecting your wife - based on them I strongly suggest you put up your firearms and not touch them until you have completed a training course that focuses on the legal requirements and limitations on the use of lethal force. Paraphrasing from a training seminar given an attorney that hangs out here, you need to have a reasonably held apprehension (and that word does not mean "fear") that you are faced with an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury (which generally does not mean mere bruises), or that your wife is facing such an imminent threat. From where I sit reading and interpreting your post above, those conditions DO NOT appear to be present. (My medical condition may create such a reasonable apprehension based on much less than what would be needed for you/your wife to reach that same apprehension. Think about it.)

The use of lethal force must of necessity be reserved for the very most dire of circumstances. Most of the time folks are going to be better off using the criminal and civil legal processes rather than lethal force.

Now - let's change things for a moment and designate the folks you are so worried about as common mall rats intent on a robbery. First off, considering that I have drawn a crowd around to listen/watch the show, doing so would be stupid. But there are stupid people out there. So what to do?

Most of the "stuff" you have with you still belongs to the store. The mall rats can have it. As for protecting the wife and kids? Just how far have you been able to retreat, and how much assistance have you been able to obtain during your retreat? Given the situation of protecting family, retreating into a corner may actually be a sound tactical move. At least there you have cut off all but one direction of attack. Get the kids out of the stroller and your wife in front of the kids while you use the stroller as something to block the advance of the mall rats.

Any more from me and you will need to pay for my teachings.

stay safe.

Again you make some very good suggestions. As far as legalities, Dr. Bruce Eimer's explanations given in his youtube videos reconciles with everything which I already knew about justifiable use of force from a few law classes I had to take years ago when getting my MBA. I know he teaches VA non-resident classes, but I haven't heard any references to him here on the forum. Not sure that a "reasonably prudent person" would fault a guy for defending his pregnant wife from being slammed by 2-3 300 lbs. ghetto thugs who happen to be on the clock. Likewise I think that being armed puts any physical assault made on you to the next level due to the possibility of losing your firearm. This is why when you are armed you have to try to walk away from all conflicts if possible.

I do know that there is a lot of gray in self defense; different juries will make different decisions. I also know that even if justified you may be spending 2-3 years in jail waiting to prove your innocence. My life experience has taught me that thugs know when you are willing and able to defend yourself; they will move on to the next target since in the end they are cowards. Its basic animal psychology. I spent a couple of years making deliveries to hospitals dealing with security guards all day long. Most were ok, some were head cases. Never had one of them try anything with me despite me sometimes not respecting their authratay.
http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8_0Jp9sk7M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_AUn87uP00

More ideas

Went shopping this morning by myself. I don't think that the LP guys would pay any attention to me if I did cartwheels. Clearly my wife and the stroller are the target of their profiling. Having said that I have 2 ideas. I can go and talk to the LP guys by myself and ask them to please stay back so that we can shop in peace as they are needlessly creating a stressful situation. I would also appreciate anyone who knows the district manger or loss prevention managers phone numbers/ emails for Kmart and Walmart in the Virginia Beach area sharing them with me via a private message as they have been the worst at this. I spend probably over $10,000 per year at Walmart.

Mongoose72 said:

Went shopping this morning by myself. I don't think that the LP guys would pay any attention to me if I did cartwheels. Clearly my wife and the stroller are the target of their profiling. Having said that I have 2 ideas. I can go and talk to the LP guys by myself and ask them to please stay back so that we can shop in peace as they are needlessly creating a stressful situation. I would also appreciate anyone who knows the district manger or loss prevention managers phone numbers/ emails for Kmart and Walmart in the Virginia Beach area sharing them with me via a private message as they have been the worst at this. I spend probably over $10,000 per year at Walmart.

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Or you could just ignore them, keep in mind that the anybody, including the LP have as much right/privilege to be there as you. Go about your business and they probably will leave you alone. If not tell management, if that does not work shop somewhere else. Surely this does not happen to you in every store you shop in.

Mongoose72 said:

Went shopping this morning by myself. I don't think that the LP guys would pay any attention to me if I did cartwheels. Clearly my wife and the stroller are the target of their profiling. Having said that I have 2 ideas. I can go and talk to the LP guys by myself and ask them to please stay back so that we can shop in peace as they are needlessly creating a stressful situation. I would also appreciate anyone who knows the district manger or loss prevention managers phone numbers/ emails for Kmart and Walmart in the Virginia Beach area sharing them with me via a private message as they have been the worst at this. I spend probably over $10,000 per year at Walmart.

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You've introduced a few new variables into the equation. First, you went shopping by yourself. Second, you went alone. Third, you reveal your worth to Walmart.

You going shopping alone doesn't really negate the argument that your wife is the primary target, as you also changed the time of day. As I've read your posts, I've wondered why you didn't just change your shopping schedule to a different time of day. That you seemed to always shop late at night with a little kid in tow struck me as a bit odd.

Telling us how much you spend annually at Walmart is misdirected. You need to make that point with the store management.

As for dealing with the the LP guys, take Skidmark's advice. If you're in the right, you'll prevail.

Is this the same Walmart where the evil Retarded Black Man on the bicycle in a suit tried to shake your hand?

:uhoh:

Maybe you ought to discover Amazon.com:lol:

peter nap said:

Is this the same Walmart where the evil Retarded Black Man on the bicycle in a suit tried to shake your hand?

:uhoh:

Maybe you ought to discover Amazon.com:lol:

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Yes all of the worst incidents occurred at the same Walmart which I no longer go to. BTW the evil retard black man was most likely just an idiot employed there as I looked up and saw that the dress uniform for mangers etc. is to wear a blue or green shirt with Kaki pants; which he was wearing. That place is completely out of control. The problem is that people such as him and their 2 floor walkers who live in a fantasy world can cause some very bad situations. Another reason not to be out late around stupid people, or the lone white guy. Unfortunately my schedule forces me to do it a lot.

Could have, might have, maybe, didn't occur, most likely, YouTube as a cite?, racially motivated (?), assume, etc., etc.

I see a tangled web hypothesizing what would be an extremely unlikely scenario and suggesting lethal force as a response.

This thread is at best "unusual" and even if totally genuine, simple steps are available & been suggested to negate the problem. Seems to me that much depends on the intent/goal of posting what did not happen.

Unfortunately, I can give this thread but little serious consideration.

Thank You.

Grapeshot said:

Could have, might have, maybe, didn't occur, most likely, YouTube as a cite?, racially motivated (?), assume, etc., etc.

I see a tangled web hypothesizing what would be an extremely unlikely scenario and suggesting lethal force as a response.

This thread is at best "unusual" and even if totally genuine, simple steps are available & been suggested to negate the problem. Seems to me that much depends on the intent/goal of posting what did not happen.

Unfortunately, I can give this thread but little serious consideration.

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+1. Well said.

Reasons for thread

There has been some good advice given, particularly by Skidmark so I can't complain too much about pouring so much energy and time into it. I was hoping to hear some anecdotes from other people about their experiences of being harassed by store security which might have been relevant to my own situation, as harassment by store security is a recurrent theme on many other threads. It would have been good also if some with LP experience commented on why women with strollers are profiled, etc. There is alot written about this on other forums, but not in context to the additional variable of open carry. I know that one guy on another thread who wrote that his wife is a manger at walmart and that it is their policy to follow all open carriers for their entire visit. If this is the case so be it; I would just like to know it. Unfortunately people with retail and LP experience have been almost entirely silent.

A problem on this forum as well as most internet discussion forums is that there is a clique of regulars who simply try to turn every honest question into a joke. Nevertheless if one sifts through all of this there is still some good advise given here.

Mongoose72 said:

There has been some good advice given, particularly by Skidmark so I can't complain too much about pouring so much energy and time into it. I was hoping to hear some anecdotes from other people about their experiences of being harassed by store security which might have been relevant to my own situation, as (1) harassment by store security is a recurrent theme on many other threads. It would have been good also if some with LP experience commented on why (2) women with strollers are profiled, etc. There is alot written about this on other forums, but not in context to the additional variable of open carry. I know that one guy on another thread who wrote that his wife is a manger at walmart and that it is (3) their policy to follow all open carriers for their entire visit. If this is the case so be it; I would just like to know it. Unfortunately people with retail and LP experience have been almost entirely silent.

A problem on this forum as well as most internet discussion forums is that there is a (4)clique of regulars who simply try to turn every honest question into a joke. Nevertheless if one sifts through all of this there is still some good advise given here.

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(1) We tend to discuss the unusual - that does not indicate harassment on many other threads. In fact if comparing total visits to Wal-Mart to those where there was any problem will put the latter at an extremely low fraction of a percentage.

(2) Women with strollers and children are likely profiled as "mothers." None of which w/o other specific reason(s) is a negative in itself.

(3) Cite this "policy" please, besides, "I heard it on the internet." I have visited many Wal-Marts in multiple states while OCing and never been followed for even part of my visit - that is not standard fare where OC is legal.

(4) Poster/users here have developed a good ability to sift the wheat from the chaff and if in the process laugh a little, that is neither rude no against the rules. Honest questions with a high degree of validity and application to daily OC are treated with a greater quantity of respect.

BTW - I am not a clique of regulars. I am a Moderator and I pay attention to words, perceived intent, as well as deeds.

Lissen up, 'cause I'm only gonna say this one more time before I start repeating myself -

You are full of maybey's and might-be's, as well as being full of some other stuff. You are also this >< close to needing a referrral for some serious psychiatric help about this paranoia you keep displaying. (I'll retract all of that if you pay my expenses to your Wal-Mart so I can follow you around and document that everything you say is happening, and then buy me dinnner.)

Dr. Bruce is a well-meaning guy but does not seem to me to have a sufficient handle of Virginia-specific law (statute he is fair on, but he is wanting regarding case law). While User's seminar (if he ever gives another one) would be best, our own Pro-Shooter does an excellent job although in your case I would recommend a private class with him.

I know that one guy on another thread who wrote that his wife is a manger at walmart and that it is their policy to follow all open carriers for their entire visit. If this is the case so be it; I would just like to know it.

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WalMart's official policy, as has been documented so many times it is rediculous, is to follow state law. While I have never been in a Wal-Mart in VB, I hasve been in others all across Va and in other states where OC was legally permitted and never been blatantly shadowed or harassed by LP. There was that one jackwagon with a toddler who made some very stupid comments about me wanting to shoot his kid, but store security and the local cops took him out of the store in Roanoke while thanking me for reporting him and his behavior.

If you are dropping 10 large in Wal-Mart every year you need to introduce yourself to the manager, along with your receipts. I'll bet they offer to set you up with a consierge service, or at least a cart pusher.

Yes, I am calling your bluff on everything you say. Set up a meeting with me to shadow you and document what you say happens or shut up.

And whether you take my challenge or not, please put away your guns until you get over your paranoid desire to find some excuse to shoot someone. Even if you are actually being followed by 300-pound gorillas you have not provided any evidence of their desire, let alone an attempt, to body-slam you, your wife, your kid or your kid's stroller. Even if your allegation that several LP JBTs close in around you is accurate, you have provided nothing to indicate that they have expressed any desire or intent to actually touch you, your wife, your kid or your kid's stroller. The only thing you have provided is some links to some videos of some LP JBTs behaving badly towards some folks. (As I have not viewed them I have no idea if those folks were assaulted or if the LP JBTs were instead defending themselves from someone attacking them. And I have no intention of bothering to view those videos.) What you fail to realize is that the actual number of LP JBTs that behave that way, compared to the total number of LP persons, is exceedingly small. While that does not mean you will never encounter a LP JBT it does mean the odds of doing so are exceedingly slim.

And if you are dropping 10 large in Wal-Mart every year you need to introduce yourself to the manager and ask why you are being treated the way you say you are being treated. (See my other comment about this above.) And if the local store manager is not impressed with your spending habits, you can find the contact numbers for the district and regional managers just by calling Wal-Mart and asking for their name, phone number, and probably their email address as well. Or you can Google corporate customer service in Bentonville and discuss your concerns with them.

I actually do expect that anybody that has made it to high school to be able to figure out most of this stuff about contacting Wal-Mart. That you do not know how to Google the information raises additional questions about you and your story.

In closing - set up a meeting with me so I can shadow you and your family at Wal-Mart to document your claims or admit you are making all of this stuff up out of your very fertile but very paranoid mind. If it turns out what you are saying is even close to what I observe I will not only publically apologize but will assist you in trying to get it stopped - up to and including accessing civil court process.

stay safe.

also sent as a PM in case Grapeshot decides to maderate me.

Mongoose72 said:

A problem on this forum as well as most internet discussion forums is that there is a clique of regulars who simply try to turn every honest question into a joke. Nevertheless if one sifts through all of this there is still some good advise given here.

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OK,no joking.
Those stories are pure BS!
I'm not sure if you make them up to get attention or if you needed more Dr.Spock.

They sound all too much like the famous Badger Johnson AKA Sawah, so it's entirely possible you're just another of the Three Faces of Eve,,,,,but whatever, I ain't falling for it.

I have no idea what's happened to this forum lately but I know why there aren't any nuts in the woods for the Deer to eat now.