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Open carry and loss prevention

Mongoose72

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
101
Location
Virginia
Who the helll here suggest relinquishing a firearm to a non leo(LP)!?

You sir have a problem with reading comprehension. It would seem you see or read what you want to be there, not actually what is there.

WW,

My previous post was in general and not directed to you. To answer your question, Skidmark, vatazdad, and Nap all said that they would allow themselves to be detained (which should include giving up their firearm and even being handcuffed in some stores) and sue later. If that is not what they meant then they can correct me. I am just pointing out that that consensus differs on other forums. If I had all of the answers I never would have posted the initial question.
 
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WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
WW,

My previous post was in general and not directed to you. To answer your question, Skidmark, vatazdad, and Nap all said that they would allow themselves to be detained (which should include giving up their firearm and even being handcuffed in some stores) and sue later. If that is not what they meant then they can correct me. I am just pointing out that that census differs on other forums. If I had all of the answers I never would have posted the initial question.

See you just admitted you lied. Being detained as a casual conversation is not giving up a firearm or being handcuffed. I have been detained dozens of times when a employee stopped to demand to see my receipt. And never did they attempt to take my gun, or handcuff me. I always told them to pound sand.

You have a vivid imagination and poor reading comprehension. As I stated before and you admit, you read and see what you want to, not what is said or actually happens. IOW you appear paranoid and delusional.
 

Mongoose72

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
101
Location
Virginia
See you just admitted you lied. Being detained as a casual conversation is not giving up a firearm or being handcuffed. I have been detained dozens of times when a employee stopped to demand to see my receipt. And never did they attempt to take my gun, or handcuff me. I always told them to pound sand.

You have a vivid imagination and poor reading comprehension. As I stated before and you admit, you read and see what you want to, not what is said or actually happens. IOW you appear paranoid and delusional.

Detention was used in the context of being accused of shoplifting. You are equivocating the term here from its ordinary meaning. Once "detained" (i.e. put in the back office) it is standard procedure in most stores to ask the "suspect" to put any weapons they might have on the table. Handcuffs are used in some stores.
 
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WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Detention was used in the context of being accused of shoplifting. You are equivocating the term here from its ordinary meaning. Once "detained" (i.e. put in the back office) it is standard procedure in most stores to ask the "suspect" to put any weapons they might have on the table. Handcuffs are used in some stores.

You have read in this forum a member of walmart staff tell what the policy IS. And yet you ignore that, to add that nobody here has experienced what you are claiming.

Here is a hint DON'T SHOPLIFT!

Walmart knows that if they erroneously stop for shoplifting it will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. They also know that LP has to actually witness the act of concealment by some laws, and by Walmart policy. Just because you think someone is following you does not mean they are. And because they talk to you does not make it a detention. And you have never provided any evidence that they took your gun or handcuffed you.

My advice is to seek counseling before something happens while you are overreacting.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
WW,

My previous post was in general and not directed to you. To answer your question, Skidmark, vatazdad, and Nap all said that they would allow themselves to be detained (which should include giving up their firearm and even being handcuffed in some stores) and sue later. If that is not what they meant then they can correct me. I am just pointing out that that consensus differs on other forums. If I had all of the answers I never would have posted the initial question.

There is a hell of a lot of difference between being detained and having someone take my gun. And there is a hell of a lot of difference between the internet tough guys that talk about how they won't allow it and the generally honest answers here. I've videoed too many of them crawfishing under pressure.

Lastly.....GO AWAY! Go to the other forums you keep referencing. Every part of that story is pure BS and your continued whining is getting annoying and if you just have to keep whimpering.....address ME, not the collective. Grapeshot whom I'm sure will send me a stern email soon about this post, Skidmark and Taz are much more tolerant and tactful.

The more you post, the more you sound like Badger who really needs a frontal lobotomy!
 

Mongoose72

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
101
Location
Virginia
WW,

Are you just trying to increase your number of postings for some reason? You say in post after post things which were never said or claimed. You throw out personal insults and attacks over and over again while accusing others of the same. Do you just need to have the last word? Ok, you can have it...
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
PN if he is not a troll and for real he has a big phobia of getting arrested for shoplifting. Now what would cause such a phobia?
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
PN if he is not a troll and for real he has a big phobia of getting arrested for shoplifting. Now what would cause such a phobia?

Like I said earlier WW....I know where all the nuts went this fall!

AND Grapeshot.....I'll stop. Sorry!
 
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WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
WW,

Are you just trying to increase your number of postings for some reason? You say in post after post things which were never said or claimed. You throw out personal insults and attacks over and over again while accusing others of the same. Do you just need to have the last word? Ok, you can have it...

Do you believe that carrying a firearm openly will get you out of a shoplifting arrest. Let me clue you into a little problem with that~committing a crime in many states automatically elevates it to a felony, and have harder sentencing for committing a crime with a firearm. In Florida it will get you a mandatory sentence of 10 years, 20 if you actually use the firearm.

Just Sayin`
 

Mongoose72

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
101
Location
Virginia
There is a hell of a lot of difference between being detained and having someone take my gun. And there is a hell of a lot of difference between the internet tough guys that talk about how they won't allow it and the generally honest answers here. I've videoed too many of them crawfishing under pressure.

Lastly.....GO AWAY! Go to the other forums you keep referencing. Every part of that story is pure BS and your continued whining is getting annoying and if you just have to keep whimpering.....address ME, not the collective. Grapeshot whom I'm sure will send me a stern email soon about this post, Skidmark and Taz are much more tolerant and tactful.

The more you post, the more you sound like Badger who really needs a frontal lobotomy!

Nap,

If you read the earlier postings the discussion was originally about losing possession of your firearm. In context, you told me to let it happen and go to Tahaiti with the money. I was just initially surprised that OCers would give their guns to LP while the CC crowd says they won't. If you won't give it to them then I stand corrected about your views and the last several thousand words have been a miscommunication.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Nap,

If you read the earlier postings the discussion was originally about losing possession of your firearm. In context, you told me to let it happen and go to Tahaiti with the money. I was just initially surprised that OCers would give their guns to LP while the CC crowd says they won't. If you won't give it to them then I stand corrected about your views and the last several thousand words have been a miscommunication.

Go take your Meds. I have other things to do!
 

Mongoose72

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
101
Location
Virginia
Do you believe that carrying a firearm openly will get you out of a shoplifting arrest. Let me clue you into a little problem with that~committing a crime in many states automatically elevates it to a felony, and have harder sentencing for committing a crime with a firearm. In Florida it will get you a mandatory sentence of 10 years, 20 if you actually use the firearm.

Just Sayin`

Never shoplifted, never committed a crime. That is why I would welcome Law enforcement to come the next time any LP wants to harass my family for no reason.
 

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
Finally Walmart is and will continue to be my favorite store. They have the best prices and selection of all of the big box stores; and are a strong supporter of the second amendment. I just as easily could have run into rogue LPs at any other store chain.
I am not a professional poster or forum moderator; thus I have some actual work to do and will probably have to step back a bit from this one. I will try to comment if something important is said, but I think that I have learned my lesson on this one (about how this particular forum operates) and I will try to keep discussions as general as possible.

But you continue to post, why is that?
 

Mr Birdman

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
209
Location
United States
harass

Never shoplifted, never committed a crime. That is why I would welcome Law enforcement to come the next time any LP wants to harass my family for no reason.

I read on here some time ago that a few o/c had a little o/c event at a wal-mart, and when the lp guys showed up they all went diff directions. They can not follow all of you then all get your shopping done and assemble at the same register to pay for your purchases, and do it on a day when you all need lost of stuff. That way it will show the mgmt that you do spend lots of money there and they will get the point. :banana:
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Never shoplifted, never committed a crime. That is why I would welcome Law enforcement to come the next time any LP wants to harass my family for no reason.

No one here, of whom I am aware, walks on water. Perhaps you mean that you have never been charged with a crime.

If law enforcement is called, I will give my name and where I live - that is all. I will make a call to my attorney forthwith and he can speak for me. While I generally hold LEOs in a positive light, they are neither judges nor jurors, AND will likely find RAS/PC to get a magistrate to certify the charges based upon the LP person's report.

That is where the cah ching kicks in after the trial or when the charges are dismissed - a civil suit will follow if my attorney deems it good.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
I'll remove the consultation fee and expenses requirement. The only way for you to gain/regain credibility is to have a relatively independent witness. If you do not want to use me, how about asking one of your local OCDO friends to shadow you and document what happens? Or walk with you, making your gaggle even more enticing for LP to profile?

It does not matter what Wal-Mart LP, or Target LP, or Mom&Pop's Crack Cocaine Emporium LP folks do to other folks. What matters is what they do to you. And if you look even only glancingly at those videos you will see provocation, unnecessary resistance, or both on the part of the "customer". (As in it is far better to sue the heck out of Wal-Mart than to get your face put into their filthy floor.) Yes, it is unfair, insulting, and a whole lot of other not-nice to have to endure their behavior, but going from the innocent one to mutual combatant or actual instigator of violence just is not my cup of tea and I know of thousands, if not millions, of reasons to suggest the same to others.

And I still trust folks in prison more than I do folks sitting in church - the former are much more genuine and honest, on the whole, than are the latter. Amazingly, pretty much all of society seems to come to that same conclusion if reading social commentary is to be believed.

Why are you avoiding independent confirmation of your assertions?

stay safe.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
That ^ ^ ^ and I know who and what those incarcerated are. I know less about people in church. Does anyone think that all attendees at church services are pure and w/o any evil thoughts - by the way that is purely rhetorical.
 

carolina guy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,737
Location
Concord, NC
I have now been open carrying in the Virginia beach area for about 1 year. Originally I open carried about 50% of the time I now open carry 100%; for a reason I will get to in a moment. Reflecting on my experiences, I have yet to have an individual customer say anything to me. Only 2 people have even mentioned my gun to me at all: both were bank managers at Wells Fargo 1 positive and 1 negative. I have passed police officers numerous times and none has said a word to me; in fact once while in line at Walmart one of the cashiers asked an officer if what I was doing was legal. He said “What open carry? Yes its legal”. She said that she had never seen it before. He replied that it just was very rare.

Now to the reason why I open carry now 100% of the time. A few months ago I noticed that sometimes myself and my family were being tailed while in a store by plain clothes store security people. I thought that it might be because I was open carrying so I started to open carry less to avoid the hassle. I then realized that store security follows you around either way. Part of it is because my family fits a profile I have 2 young kids and use a baby stroller. My wife is in her early 30’s but looks younger and is a minority; this also fits a profile as well. I have heard people say that once a woman with a stroller enters a store Loss prevention goes on high alert. While I am followed much more when I am with my wife and kids, I do sometimes get followed while shopping by myself.

All of this brings up an important problem. I am fairly certain that these people are just security idiots living in a fantasy world, but when you follow a normal customer for no reason throughout the store your intentions might not be so clear. I don’t know for a fact if these people aren’t purse snatchers, kidnappers, etc so I have to keep my eye on them as well. This often leads to an exchange of angry glances and sometimes they will back off a bit. An additional huge problem is that although my wife is Hispanic, she is dark enough that many times people think that she is black. Many of the store security guys are simply ghetto thugs making $9.00 per hour who let their seething hatred of interracial couples show through. The possibility of one of them inventing a reason to stop me has crossed my mind. I have had a few of them walk step for step with me as I cash out and get in line behind me. When I walk they walk, when I stop they stop; its ridiculous.
Anyhow, this is why I now open carry 100% of the time:
to protect myself and my family from criminals outside the store as well as the criminals inside the store who often work as loss prevention officers. Just do a Google search or you tube video search and you will see that numerous people are killed by these guys every year. They assault innocent customers everyday because they “think” they saw something. They often will tackle women, even pregnant ones (my wife is 6 months pregnant) with no regard for the baby.

Now to my dilemma, what to do if I am surrounded by 5-10 of these people for no reason other than one of the racist ghetto thugs wants to bother the mixed couple and make a false accusation. I am a big guy and I know how to wrestle; but I don’t have a distorted view of myself and I know that I can’t defend myself against 10 other big guys without the use of a weapon. If someone tries tackling me, I have no way of knowing if they are going for my gun or not. I have no way of knowing that one of them won’t tackle my pregnant wife for no reason either. Open carry should prevent most of this as most companies have a policy of not physically interacting with armed people, simply calling the police. I have no problem with this as I am doing nothing wrong other than shopping while white while open carrying. The hypothetical problem is if one of them initiates a physical altercation with me or assaults my wife I have 2 basic choices.
1. Let it happen and be at their mercy and pray they don’t go for my gun or tackle my pregnant wife. Or
2. Be willing to go the full distance to protect myself and my family; up to and including use of deadly force.

In the past year of living here I have seen less than five interracial couples with a white man and a black female; I have yet to see one with kids. Having kids really pushes racist people over the edge. I know that they exist, but like the couple in northern VA who had Walmart security call the police on them, they never go out in public together due to the harassment.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...hters-walmart-shopping-trip-article-1.1351429

A few other concluding thoughts. I have heard others say that store security now treats everyone like criminals since the Obama recession as things are so bad that even normal people are committing crimes. I have also heard that some stores now use facial recognition and perhaps we open carriers are in such databases whether we are open carrying or not. It wouldn't surprise me if one of these thugs put me in the database just so that I would get further harassed.

Finally, I dress conservatively I am a clean cut 40 year old white guy with 2 masters degrees working on a PhD. I am usually left alone when I open carry by myself and I have heard the stockers mumble 5.0 as I walk by. My wife is almost done with her law degree and looks very sweet and innocent. I know that I could avoid 90% of this harassment by doing all of the shopping by myself, but I refuse to live my life like that. Any thoughts, comments, anecdotes or solutions would be appreciated.

This all sounds like a really good reason to stop shopping at WalMart.
 

thedevilrobyjohn

Regular Member
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
163
Location
Richmond
birds of a feather

There has been some good advice given, particularly by Skidmark so I can't complain too much about pouring so much energy and time into it. I was hoping to hear some anecdotes from other people about their experiences of being harassed by store security which might have been relevant to my own situation, as harassment by store security is a recurrent theme on many other threads. It would have been good also if some with LP experience commented on why women with strollers are profiled, etc. There is alot written about this on other forums, but not in context to the additional variable of open carry. I know that one guy on another thread who wrote that his wife is a manger at walmart and that it is their policy to follow all open carriers for their entire visit. If this is the case so be it; I would just like to know it. Unfortunately people with retail and LP experience have been almost entirely silent.

A problem on this forum as well as most internet discussion forums is that there is a clique of regulars who simply try to turn every honest question into a joke. Nevertheless if one sifts through all of this there is still some good advise given here.

You much like myself have extenuating circumstances. You seem more primed, much like myself due to your unique situation. You have multiracial children and wife. My wife is crippled and dying, she looks like a drunk or a heroin addict. We are watched, laughed at and followed as well as had police called on us five times in a year. My skin is thicker and my patience are greater due to this. People are ignorant and cruel but they dont matter, especially not when it pertains to deadly force. I am a fighter but you and I need to fight for our wives and children. Management are there for customer service....try it. When my wife is mistreated, I dont unholster...I leave...I never return. We have to act in a higher standard than those we train to defend ourselves against. My best friend is doing 20 years because his temper got the best of him and he pulled the trigger. Go visit someone in prison..its an eye opener. You get it occasionally....I get it daily and hourly. My kids are more important than foolish pride, so are yours...born and unborn... but its hard all the way around...just leave the **** alone because the more you poke it, the more it stinks.
 
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carolina guy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,737
Location
Concord, NC
Or you could just ignore them, keep in mind that the anybody, including the LP have as much right/privilege to be there as you. Go about your business and they probably will leave you alone. If not tell management, if that does not work shop somewhere else. Surely this does not happen to you in every store you shop in.


+1 !!!
 
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