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What truely should be your primary concern

arentol

New member
Joined
Apr 10, 2009
Messages
383
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
A few years back I was in a fist fight that turned into his knife vs my gun. As soon as I drew my weapon he rethought his plan and I was able to hold him at the scene till the police arrived. The BG kept taunting me to shoot him and I made it clear that if he so much as took one step towards me or my inlaws who were about 20yds to my right that I would put one in his head and two center mass. He believed me and no further violence was necessary. A couple of the officers who showed up were buddies of mine (wife was a dispatcher at the time) asked me why I didn't shoot him even though I was well within my rights to do. My answer was because I didn't have to. Had he moved from his spot, I would have.

But.. But.. The Tueller drill teaches us that anyone within 100 yards who is armed with as much as a pair of nail clippers is a deadly threat that can reach you and kill you before you can fire your weapon even if it is already out and pointed right at them and you are the greatest high-pressure marksman that has ever lived. Not shooting is the most foolish thing you could ever conceivably do!!!!

...Or so would say the likely hundreds of police officers who have gotten away with murder with Tueller as their excuse.

Sorry, but you hit on one of my biggest pet peeves with this story (Not your actions, you nailed it. The officers response to your actions is what gets me!). Ever since a Seattle police officer got away clean after gunning down an old, drunk, native american wood carver that wasn't even close to a threat to him I can't help but disparage that stupid drill every time I come across an excuse to do so.

When Tueller DOES NOT APPLY:

1.) Your weapon is drawn.
2.) The individual is not armed with a deadly weapon (unless they are exceptionally large and strong a/o drugged out of their mind).
3.) The individual is more than ~25 feet from you.
4.) The individual is obviously not in good enough health to run nearly as fast as a ~30-year-old man in decent to good shape.

Implied in the above is also this fact.... The PROPER resolution to a Tueller situation is TO DRAW AND AIM YOUR WEAPON.

That was the ENTIRE point of Tueller, to teach officers who are faced with a knife/bat/etc wielding individual to draw and point their weapon. Officers used to sometimes be afraid that drawing would "Escalate" the situation, and Tueller was supposed to get them to draw anyway for officer safety. Now though it is used all too frequently as an excuse in the courtroom for having drawn and fired immediately. Tueller is a valuable drill for officer safety reasons, but it is misapplied and abused, and I really kind of wish it had never been invented.
 

Seigi

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
121
Location
Baton Rouge, Louisiana, USA
This brings up one of my biggest fears in a SD or defense of others situation. If I'm in a public place where a BG needs to be put down or worse multiple BG's and I start throwing lead, who's to say that a cop or another armed LAC won't confuse me as a BG? Or worse yet I'm the guy who thought that person A needs to be put down, when in reality they are a LAC just trying to help or save their own skin and now I'm responsible for the death of an innocent person. Sometimes its not always readily apparent who the good guys and the bad guys are.

What did you think the odds were of someone walking in and saving you if you were unarmed? That's the odds of you or someone else showing up to even have a chance of getting the wrong idea. One way or another, the work of a LAC's gun is over in seconds. By the time the cops show up, yours will either be holstered or lying next to your corpse.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
This brings up one of my biggest fears in a SD or defense of others situation. If I'm in a public place where a BG needs to be put down or worse multiple BG's and I start throwing lead, who's to say that a cop or another armed LAC won't confuse me as a BG? Or worse yet I'm the guy who thought that person A needs to be put down, when in reality they are a LAC just trying to help or save their own skin and now I'm responsible for the death of an innocent person. Sometimes its not always readily apparent who the good guys and the bad guys are.

I will liken this to a scenario in a convenience store that I've given some thought. The underlying rationale is somewhat similar.

Lets say I'm at the coffee counter in a convenience store and a gun-robber begins his work at the sales counter. What do I do? Here's my thinking. If I shoot, I may cause the robber to trigger a shot into the clerk. If I call out, I may startle the robber into rash-er action, escalating a robber who wouldn't have fired into shooting. Bottom line: I can't make that decision on the clerk's behalf: is the clerk willing to take the risk of being shot in order to end the robbery and stop the robber from robbing again? I concluded that the most I can do is move to cover, draw and aquire a sight-picture, and be a good witness--noting details of the robber's appearance, clothing, etc. Only if the robber fires a shot at the clerk will I shoot. In conclusion, when I think it through, I really can't protect the clerk from getting shot the first time--its too late. All I can do is try to prevent him from getting shot the second or third time.

Similar with your situation. You can only do so much. You have to decide what your "triggers" are, and whether you're willing to accidentally shoot an innocent or other defender in order to protect yourself and yours.

Personally, I think its a little less complicated. If the other guy is pointing his gun at a third person, and I identified that third person as a bad-guy, I'm not going to shoot that "other guy". Unless he points his gun at me. Then it the same drill all over again: move and shoot. All this assumes the area isn't crowded with innocents making a miss life-threatening.

Sometimes life just hands you a no-win or low-win situation. You have to decide for yourself what you consider the correct course of action. Tough decisions are part of the game. The plus is that you sometimes get to think through about it in advance.
 

SouthernBoy

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
I will liken this to a scenario in a convenience store that I've given some thought. The underlying rationale is somewhat similar.

Lets say I'm at the coffee counter in a convenience store and a gun-robber begins his work at the sales counter. What do I do? Here's my thinking. If I shoot, I may cause the robber to trigger a shot into the clerk. If I call out, I may startle the robber into rash-er action, escalating a robber who wouldn't have fired into shooting. Bottom line: I can't make that decision on the clerk's behalf: is the clerk willing to take the risk of being shot in order to end the robbery and stop the robber from robbing again? I concluded that the most I can do is move to cover, draw and aquire a sight-picture, and be a good witness--noting details of the robber's appearance, clothing, etc. Only if the robber fires a shot at the clerk will I shoot. In conclusion, when I think it through, I really can't protect the clerk from getting shot the first time--its too late. All I can do is try to prevent him from getting shot the second or third time.

Similar with your situation. You can only do so much. You have to decide what your "triggers" are, and whether you're willing to accidentally shoot an innocent or other defender in order to protect yourself and yours.

I have also given this sort of scenario a lot of thought and have come up with what pretty much mirrors your rational in your convenience store example. After the fact there will be those present who will ask, "Why didn't you use your gun"? Trying to make them understand your position is going to be difficult or next to impossible. But they weren't the one with a gun on them.... you were in this example. So you would have had to weigh variables that they were never in a position to consider.

As for the second situation, the innocent party, your life is the most important one present. When it comes down to deciding whether or not to loose rounds toward your assailant, you can't be concerned about innocent bystanders since that could cost you your life. Now this is all much easier to say than do and I am completely aware of this. Which means for myself, I would need to get beyond such consideration. Hard pills to swallow but then, facts tend to be that way.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
However, time and time again we allow preconceived scenarios other people have laid out for us to become our future predictors. There is a distinct difference between sitting at a red light and seeing pistol pressed against the driver's side window and, sitting in an outdoor cafe somewhere and hearing gun fire, followed by a guy with a handgun running in your direction.

Gun does not always equal threat.

Obviously. If that were true, every time we held a meet and greet, everyone else would be dead, unless they got me first! Nor is a guy with a handgun running in my direction necessarily a threat. He's a potential threat, to be sure, but what is he doing with the handgun? Is he merely carrying it? Is he aiming it? Shooting it? If merely carrying it, is he looking over his shoulder? Fear on his face? Anger? Dead calm?

Just because he's running towards me doesn't mean I'm going to draw, either. If he's the victim of attack, he's likely to shoot at anyone with a firearm. That would be pretty stupid of me to contribute to my own demise. The good thing about open carry is the lack of time it takes to draw and fire. It's better to continue to assess the situation. If he starts popping people, I'll drop him. If he takes cover, that's a different story. If after taking cover two cops round the corner with their own firearms drawn, then maybe he is a bad guy. However, the cops could have been chasing his attackers, so who knows? Gather more information.

My decision matrix is quite small: If I'm in immediate danger of life or limb, draw. If I'm in imminent danger of life or limb, fire.

Naturally, this requires some definitions:

1. Immediate danger of life or limb: One or more individuals have presented themselves as a credible threat, and they're in a position to engage.

2. Imminent danger of life or limb: The individuals are engaging or have engaged.

3. Credible threat (three definitions):

a. A threat that is "real and immediate, not conjectural or hypothetical." Kegler v. United States DOJ, 436 F. Supp. 2d 1204, 1212 (D. Wyo. 2006).

b. A "credible threat of violence" means a knowing and willful statement or course of conduct that does not serve a legitimate purpose and that causes a reasonable person to fear for the person's safety or for the safety of the person's immediate family." - IC 34-26-6-2 “Credible threat of violence” defined.

c. "Credible threat" means a verbal or nonverbal threat, or a combination of the two, including threats delivered by electronic communication or implied by a pattern of conduct, which places the person who is the target of the threat in reasonable fear for his or her safety or the safety of his or her family members or individuals closely associated with the person, and which is made with the apparent ability to carry out the threat to cause such harm. It is not necessary to prove that the person making the threat had the intent to actually carry out the threat. The present incarceration of the person making the threat is not a bar to prosecution under this section. - 2013 Florida Statutes, 784.048 (c).​

4. Position to engage: Able to begin endangering life or limb without delay. This varies widely, depending on the individual, their weapon or lack thereof. Even if they appear to be without a weapon, anyone with minimal training can learn to palm a knife such that it's available within a fraction of a second. If they're clearly not armed, I'm using the 21 foot rule. If I don't know whether they're armed or not, I'm using the 30-yard rule, beyond which throwing knives are ineffective. If they armed with a firearm, even a handgun, back that up to at least 100 yards or more, depending on the firearm and the circumstances.

If an unarmed person is stationary 21 feet distant, they're in a position to engage. If they're 30 feet away, they're not.

Caveat: There's no way you can think through this under fire. You have to know it cold, forwards and back, six ways to Sunday.
 
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DaveT319

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
274
Location
Eugene, OR
First off, I take issue with the original quote. The writer takes a statement and uses it out of context in order to start his article. The part about "your primary concern should be". In the context of your ammunition, penetration is high on the importance list. So there's really nothing wrong with the statement that he took issue with. In the context of DURING a possible shooting situation, of course it should be low on the list. But from the ammo decision, it makes perfect sense.

From there, I think everybody has pretty much covered on the high points. You're going to want to discern the greatest, most immediate threat and deal with that first, stepping down from there. And you also have to keep in mind that a potential shoot situation can change in an instant. Just because there is an immediate threat does not necessarily mean that you will have to or should pull the trigger. If somebody is 10 feet away with a knife, and you already have your weapon out, you may not need to shoot them. You would be within your rights to, because you are presented with a weapon and he is close enough to injure or kill you before you can stop him. But the presence of YOUR weapon may stop him from attacking.

A shooting situation is very fluid. Just because you would be in the right doesn't mean you will have to pull the trigger. Identifying this is important because nobody wants to kill somebody if they don't have to.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,950
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Perception is in the eye of the beholder. Reaction to that perception, if instantaneous, will result in one of three outcomes; good, bad or a combination of both.

99.44% of the people will never have any training or enough training to react to a situation that we perceive to be the right response. And usually that right response belief is based on the wrong perceptions.

In other words, hindsight is 20/20.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
no matter high highly trained you may believe you are to react to situational circumstances, i am afraid kasparov, grandmaster, said it best and will use it as an analogy for this topic

quote The total number of possible different moves in a single game of chess is more than the number of seconds that have elapsed since the big bang created the universe.

This is the essential element that cannot be measured by any analysis or device, and I believe it's at the heart of success in all things: the power of intuition and the ability to harness and use it like a master. unquote

we have, over the years, been told by others, therefore convincing ourselves, to ignore our intuition in many, many instances.

IF your intuition says here is the path to follow... go for it! I will caveat this as your intuition decision should be based also on practical experience not 'gee i saw them do it in the movies or on TV'.

personally, my primary concern is can i implement Falstaff's rationalization in the Bard's Henry IV, part one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_7DpbJ1xFg&noredirect=1

ipse
 
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since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
no matter high highly trained you may believe you are to react to situational circumstances, i am afraid kasparov, grandmaster, said it best and will use it as an analogy for this topic

quote The total number of possible different moves in a single game of chess is more than the number of seconds that have elapsed since the big bang created the universe.

oh, interesting...

See me on Yahoo! Chess. In the meantime, let's get back to reality.

This is the essential element that cannot be measured by any analysis or device, and I believe it's at the heart of success in all things: the power of intuition and the ability to harness and use it like a master. unquote

we have, over the years, been told by others, therefore convincing ourselves, to ignore our intuition in many, many instances.

IF your intuition says here is the path to follow... go for it! I will caveat this as your intuition decision should be based also on practical experience not 'gee i saw them do it in the movies or on TV'.

personally, my primary concern is can i implement Falstaff's rationalization in the Bard's Henry IV, part one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_7DpbJ1xFg&noredirect=1

ipse

It's not an issue of "intuition." It's an issue of experience. Furthermore, in both real life and chess one encounters situations where the number of potential moves is enormous, but the number of viable moves is very small, and only the truly insane will deviate from the number of viable moves.

Let's take the example of a crosswalk. The light changes to "Walk," so what do you do? The only valid (sane) responses include:
- visually double-check the traffic and cross
- remain where you are because you changed your mind as to your destination
- change your mind and head off in a different direction (once that way is clear)
- remain where you are because you enjoy the view
- remain where you are because you struck up a conversation with someone on the corner
- hop on a bus because that's why you were there in the first place, not to cross the street

Invalid responses would include, but are not limited to:
- crossing when it says "Don't Walk"
- stepping into traffic
- climbing a tree
- dancing on the sidewalk like a blithering idiot
- running away, screaming in terror at the white lettering of the word "walk,"
- blocking others from crossing the street

...and pretty much everything you can possibly imagine, as well as quite a few responses you will never imagine.

To reiterate: Chess and life are similar in that both have many possible moves. They're also similar in that both have a very small number of valid moves. Often, the number of valid moves drops to 1.

In chess, however, forfeit is a valid move. In life, it's not, for the end is death. Please note that giving up your cash to a robber is not forfeit. It's a valid move, particularly when the other options are more risky of loosing life or limb.
 
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