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Thread: Help in Ottawa County.

  1. #1
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    Help in Ottawa County.

    I have a conceal carry permit from Ottawa county. I had the audacity to write to the SOS and say that I have the right to travel without having to pay for, or carry, a drivers license. In the letter I said that I an not a Citizen of the U.S. ( meaning the D.C Corporation U.S) That I am a citizen of the Republic, now the Gun board is trying to find a way to revoke my permit. (Saying I revoked my citizenship). I explained the citizen of the Republic thing, but they said they were going to leave it open, now they sent a (third) registered letter, ( I have not picked up yet, it is at the post office)They are trying to have me go before the board for a second time. I was hopping that someone could advise my as to handle the meeting, or If someone could join me when they give me a date to show up.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whap View Post
    I have a conceal carry permit from Ottawa county. I had the audacity to write to the SOS and say that I have the right to travel without having to pay for, or carry, a drivers license. In the letter I said that I an not a Citizen of the U.S. ( meaning the D.C Corporation U.S) That I am a citizen of the Republic, now the Gun board is trying to find a way to revoke my permit. (Saying I revoked my citizenship). I explained the citizen of the Republic thing, but they said they were going to leave it open, now they sent a (third) registered letter, ( I have not picked up yet, it is at the post office)They are trying to have me go before the board for a second time. I was hopping that someone could advise my as to handle the meeting, or If someone could join me when they give me a date to show up.
    You sent the SOS a letter saying you will drive without a license?
    Last edited by Raggs; 12-03-2013 at 08:15 PM.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  3. #3
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whap View Post
    I have a conceal carry permit from Ottawa county. . . . I have the right to travel without having to pay for, or carry, a drivers license. . . . I was hopping that someone could advise my as to handle the meeting, or If someone could join me when they give me a date to show up.
    If you do not need a drivers license to travel, why is there a need to have a CC license to carry? Serious question. I'm trying to understand why you don't care about SOS and their drivers license, but you seem to care about the gun board and their carry license?

    To put it succinctly, why not just write to the gun board as you did the SOS and say, "I have the right to carry a firearm concealed without having to pay for, or carry, a concealed pistols license." Please explain the difference, my friend.
    Last edited by DanM; 12-03-2013 at 08:37 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO whap

    We don't generally recommend that people go into a situation like that pro se - representing themselves.

    IMO - this would be a good time to seek competant legal representation.


    Been said beore - we do not need a driving license to "travel", only to drive. IANAL
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-03-2013 at 08:35 PM. Reason: Added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I cannot ready you letter to SOS from here ... so I have nothing to offer.

    Why tell SOS you are not a citizen? A DL license has zip to do with that.

    And why bother sending a letter to SOS at all?

    Neither the state SOS or the board can make a determination about citizenship .. they only have authority to rule on the subject matter that the state legislature allows them to do.

    (and I think DLs are not mandatory myself--yeah, I'm a libertarian maximus lol)

    They'll ask you "are you a citizen?" than ask them "define citizen"..they'll say born in the USA blah blah blah ... then just answer "I was born in the USA". If you have a passport, that will be proof enough.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 12-03-2013 at 09:08 PM.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    This situation was brought on by reading too many sovereign citizen books it would seem. This will not end well even with an attorney.

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    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  7. #7
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Well here we go again bad advice leads to more bad advice.

    First of all there is a Legal way to renounce Citizenship and if not done this way it is mere words with no legal holding. I wish people on this site would study before running off at the mouth making false claims.

    Now for your act, yes you are legally correct, but the courts are corrupt and do not follow Constitutional laws, and nor do Judges keep their OATH of office.

    So lets establish a few facts instead of the answers other gave that border on hysteria.

    Fact: you do not need a "Drivers license" to travel because Driver is a legal description of someone who transports goods and engages in commerce. We travel, we don't drive unless we are engaged in commerce.

    Fact: You do not need a Concealed carry license to keep or "bear" arms as we all know.

    BUT!

    Once again the entire system is completely corrupt and we have in every stage of Government criminals running the show and this is based on Constitutional law. The Supreme Court only interprets laws and unless we challenge our elected Congress to enact laws to clear up Bad and terrible Supreme court stupidity posing as opinions, then we the people are at fault.

    My biggest problem is with your decision to walk up to the giant and kick him in the testicles so to speak.

    I always tell people that you don't stop a speeding runaway train by throwing your body on the tracks.

    Can you climb Mt Everest? Maybe, others have done it, but do you think you are ready for such a challenge?

    Pick your fights carefully and sometimes it is best to bite ones tongue, and wait till the time is right.

    Here is the legal Federal Law way to renounce ones citizenship. see link below, and learn from this, you are only one person. So think things through.


    http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens...nship_776.html


    Remember those in power always deal your cards and they use a stacked deck, and short of a serious change in this country that in my humble opinion, will never come, as people like slavery. They love being told what to do.




    Quote Originally Posted by whap View Post
    I have a conceal carry permit from Ottawa county. I had the audacity to write to the SOS and say that I have the right to travel without having to pay for, or carry, a drivers license. In the letter I said that I an not a Citizen of the U.S. ( meaning the D.C Corporation U.S) That I am a citizen of the Republic, now the Gun board is trying to find a way to revoke my permit. (Saying I revoked my citizenship). I explained the citizen of the Republic thing, but they said they were going to leave it open, now they sent a (third) registered letter, ( I have not picked up yet, it is at the post office)They are trying to have me go before the board for a second time. I was hopping that someone could advise my as to handle the meeting, or If someone could join me when they give me a date to show up.
    Last edited by Bailenforcer; 12-04-2013 at 01:25 AM.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:

    appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
    in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
    sign an oath of renunciation

    Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect. Because of the provisions of Section 349(a)(5), U.S. citizens cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent, or while in the United States. In fact, U.S. courts have held certain attempts to renounce U.S. citizenship to be ineffective on a variety of grounds, as discussed below.


    I resign from the human race !!!! Take THAT SOS....

  9. #9
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Welcome. Whap. Glad to have another local on the boards.


    Although people are expressing what may seem very different views regarding this, I think there are some common threads that you need to consider.


    Because I can't do this using a Socratic dialogue, please bear with me. I am not trying to sound "preachy" or "telling you what to do"; the method of communication does not really allow anything else.




    # 1
    Theoretically, Bailenforcer and davidmcbeth are correct, but I think you know that.


    Bailenforcer is correct that, in the eyes of many who follow a literal, interpretation of the US Constitution and couple that with the understanding promulgated by many, if not all, of our country’s founders, what you have done is only stating the truth and have roused the beast in doing so.


    In support of davidmcbeth’s point, since you were given a CPL at one point in time, and one of the legal requirements is that the person applying be a US citizen, you must have met that requirement at one point in time. Therefore, since the Federal Government has specified a specific process that needs to be followed in order to renounce one’s citizenship”. Unless you have done as required, your “citizenship” has not changed. A county board does not have the authority to over-ride federal law in regards to citizenship...if this is the reason they deny your CPL. We don't know this yet but I don't think they would argue that point when there is a much easier point that they could argue more likely to be successful. (I'll get to that later)


    #2.
    We live in a society in which a majority of people, especially those in power, do not acknowledge #1. Actually, not only do those people not acknowledge the truth of #1, they actively oppose those who espouse such views in the most strenuous way possible…up to, and including, violence. Since it can come to that, perhaps a better word for it would be “war”. So, imho, you have provoked a fight and are now having second thoughts about that decision. Personally, if I am going to possibly have to wage a battle, in whatever form my adversary may appear, I try to prepare for possible reactions to my activities and develop counter-actions. Much like a chess game, I think in order to win a battle a person must be able to effectively predict your adversary’s behavior and plan for those possibilities. This is shown by my choice to carry a pistol and it is found in my researching law to understand what I may be up against in any confrontation.




    It appears you may not have done that. Perhaps you believed that Michigan is “shall issue” and if you meet verifiable criteria, they would never deny a person the privilege of getting a CPL? Perhaps you mistakenly believed that since Ottawa County is a “Republican Stronghold”, you thought the elected leaders with an “R” in front of their name actually supported your rights, if even in a small way, and would hand out CPLs with wild abandon?

    You could not be more incorrect.

    You chose the one county that has repeatedly denied CPLs to people otherwise qualified…even under their very demanding rules. There have been a few who have come here to ask for help or just complain about Ottawa County. I feel for you, but unless you are willing to spend massive amounts of money on attorneys and have a few years to fight this, you will most likely lose. Don’t believe me, see:

    HEINDLMEYER v. OTTAWA CTY. CONCEALED WEAPONS LIC. BD.
    DOCKET NO. 255738.
    707 N.W.2d 353 (2005)
    268 Mich. App. 202

    http://www.leagle.com/decision/20051060707NW2d353_1752




    The law says:


    (7) The concealed weapon licensing board shall issue a license to an applicant to carry a concealed pistol within the period required under this act after the applicant properly submits an application under subsection (1) and the concealed weapon licensing board determines that all of the following circumstances exist:
    * * *
    (n) Issuing a license to the applicant to carry a concealed pistol in this state is not detrimental to the safety of the applicant or to any other individual. A determination under this subdivision shall be based on clear and convincing evidence of repeated violations of this act,2 crimes, personal protection orders or injunctions, or police reports or other clear and convincing evidence of the actions of, or statements of, the applicant that bear directly on the applicant's ability to carry a concealed pistol.
    ((M.C.L. § 28.425b (7)(n))


    The CPL board reads this as: “If we feel based on the information we have that you’re a danger to this com¬munity, we will reject your application,”
    See pg 2 of this article:
    http://www.hollandsentinel.com/x1849...and-why?zc_p=1

    So, I sincerely wish you luck in your attempt to mitigate your behavior which, imho, was not very well thought out…considering you are now regretting it. You would most likely prevail, but the cost will likely be exorbitant. Their argument would most likely be that by sending that letter to the board, you have given them "clear and convincing evidence" that "bears directly on the applicant's ability to carry a concealed pistol". SO, prepare to argue against that...if that is the reason that they denied the CPL.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 12-04-2013 at 11:27 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  10. #10
    Regular Member SD40VE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Welcome. Whap. Glad to have another local on the boards.


    Although people are expressing what may seem very different views regarding this, I think there are some common threads that you need to consider.


    Because I can't do this using a Socratic dialogue, please bear with me. I am not trying to sound "preachy" or "telling you what to do"; the method of communication does not really allow anything else.




    # 1
    Theoretically, Bailenforcer and davidmcbeth are correct, but I think you know that.


    Bailenforcer is correct that, in the eyes of many who follow a literal, interpretation of the US Constitution and couple that with the understanding promulgated by many, if not all, of our country’s founders, what you have done is only stating the truth and have roused the beast in doing so.


    In support of davidmcbeth’s point, since you were given a CPL at one point in time, and one of the legal requirements is that the person applying be a US citizen, you must have met that requirement at one point in time. Therefore, since the Federal Government has specified a specific process that needs to be followed in order to renounce one’s citizenship”. Unless you have done as required, your “citizenship” has not changed. A county board does not have the authority to over-ride federal law in regards to citizenship...if this is the reason they deny your CPL. We don't know this yet but I don't think they would argue that point when there is a much easier point that they could argue more likely to be successful. (I'll get to that later)


    #2.
    We live in a society in which a majority of people, especially those in power, do not acknowledge #1. Actually, not only do those people not acknowledge the truth of #1, they actively oppose those who espouse such views in the most strenuous way possible…up to, and including, violence. Since it can come to that, perhaps a better word for it would be “war”. So, imho, you have provoked a fight and are now having second thoughts about that decision. Personally, if I am going to possibly have to wage a battle, in whatever form my adversary may appear, I try to prepare for possible reactions to my activities and develop counter-actions. Much like a chess game, I think in order to win a battle a person must be able to effectively predict your adversary’s behavior and plan for those possibilities. This is shown by my choice to carry a pistol and it is found in my researching law to understand what I may be up against in any confrontation.




    It appears you may not have done that. Perhaps you believed that Michigan is “shall issue” and if you meet verifiable criteria, they would never deny a person the privilege of getting a CPL? Perhaps you mistakenly believed that since Ottawa County is a “Republican Stronghold”, you thought the elected leaders with an “R” in front of their name actually supported your rights, if even in a small way, and would hand out CPLs with wild abandon?

    You could not be more incorrect.

    You chose the one county that has repeatedly denied CPLs to people otherwise qualified…even under their very demanding rules. There have been a few who have come here to ask for help or just complain about Ottawa County. I feel for you, but unless you are willing to spend massive amounts of money on attorneys and have a few years to fight this, you will most likely lose. Don’t believe me, see:

    HEINDLMEYER v. OTTAWA CTY. CONCEALED WEAPONS LIC. BD.
    DOCKET NO. 255738.
    707 N.W.2d 353 (2005)
    268 Mich. App. 202

    http://www.leagle.com/decision/20051060707NW2d353_1752




    The law says:


    (7) The concealed weapon licensing board shall issue a license to an applicant to carry a concealed pistol within the period required under this act after the applicant properly submits an application under subsection (1) and the concealed weapon licensing board determines that all of the following circumstances exist:
    * * *
    (n) Issuing a license to the applicant to carry a concealed pistol in this state is not detrimental to the safety of the applicant or to any other individual. A determination under this subdivision shall be based on clear and convincing evidence of repeated violations of this act,2 crimes, personal protection orders or injunctions, or police reports or other clear and convincing evidence of the actions of, or statements of, the applicant that bear directly on the applicant's ability to carry a concealed pistol.
    ((M.C.L. § 28.425b (7)(n))


    The CPL board reads this as: “If we feel based on the information we have that you’re a danger to this com¬munity, we will reject your application,”
    See pg 2 of this article:
    http://www.hollandsentinel.com/x1849...and-why?zc_p=1

    So, I sincerely wish you luck in your attempt to mitigate your behavior which, imho, was not very well thought out…considering you are now regretting it. You would most likely prevail, but the cost will likely be exorbitant. Their argument would most likely be that by sending that letter to the board, you have given them "clear and convincing evidence" that "bears directly on the applicant's ability to carry a concealed pistol". SO, prepare to argue against that...if that is the reason that they denied the CPL.
    +1 for a great answer

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD40VE View Post
    +1 for a great answer
    Presuming that the board will uphold their decision, the only recourse to get a favorable verdict would appear to be to enter suit and incur the expense of time and money.

    I only found one instance of where attorney fees were also awarded.
    http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-124844.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whap View Post
    I have a conceal carry permit from Ottawa county. I had the audacity to write to the SOS and say that I have the right to travel without having to pay for, or carry, a drivers license. In the letter I said that I an not a Citizen of the U.S. ( meaning the D.C Corporation U.S) That I am a citizen of the Republic, now the Gun board is trying to find a way to revoke my permit. (Saying I revoked my citizenship). I explained the citizen of the Republic thing, but they said they were going to leave it open, now they sent a (third) registered letter, ( I have not picked up yet, it is at the post office)They are trying to have me go before the board for a second time. I was hopping that someone could advise my as to handle the meeting, or If someone could join me when they give me a date to show up.
    assuming this is a serious question and you are not trolling us, i'm pretty sure you are lying about the gun board trying to revoke your CPL since there is no requirement for you to be a citizen in order to possess a michigan CPL.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  13. #13
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    assuming this is a serious question and you are not trolling us, i'm pretty sure you are lying about the gun board trying to revoke your CPL since there is no requirement for you to be a citizen in order to possess a Michigan CPL.
    I don't think he really knows because, at least at the time he wrote the post, he hadn't picked up the response from the gun board. Unless I read it incorrectly, his assumption is that the content of his statement is going to cause the board to rescind his CPL. I would guess that his citizenship won't be the reason, rather it will be that he felt compelled to write a letter stating what he did.

    Looking at the CPL application, there appears to be a requirement that the applicant be both a citizen of the United States (or an immigrant alien lawfully admitted into the United States) and of Michigan. However, I am aware that there was a recent court out-of-state that ruled a state can't require US citizenship in regards to firearm possession, I could be wrong though.

    From the MSP website:

    RI-012i (10/2010) MICHIGAN STATE POLICE
    Page 1 of 8


    CONCEALED PISTOL LICENSE GUIDE
    The information within this guide is required to be provided to Concealed Pistol License applicants. The applicant must
    complete the Concealed Pistol License Application and return the unsigned form, a passport-quality photograph, and
    documentation of the required training to the county clerk’s office.

    To view a complete copy of the Michigan Concealed Pistol License law, visit a local library or the Michigan State Police’s Web
    site at www.michigan.gov/msp. A complete copy of the firearms laws of this state shall be furnished upon filing an application.


    I. Concealed Pistol License Requirements

    A. State Requirements

    Applicants for a Michigan Concealed Pistol License must:

    1. Be at least 21 years of age.

    2. Be a citizen of the United States or an immigrant alien lawfully admitted into the United States.

    3. Be a resident of the State of Michigan for at least 6 months prior to application. An applicant is a state resident if one of the
    following applies:

     The applicant possesses a valid, lawfully obtained Michigan driver’s license or state identification card
     The applicant is lawfully registered to vote in Michigan
     The applicant is on active duty status with the United States Armed Forces and stationed outside of Michigan, but
    Michigan is the home of record
     The applicant is on active duty status with the United States Armed Forces and is permanently stationed in
    Michigan, but the home of record is another state

    Note: The 6-month residency requirement may be waived by the concealed pistol licensing board for new
    residents licensed by another state.

    4. Have successfully completed a pistol safety training course.

    5.......
    Last edited by DrTodd; 12-04-2013 at 09:49 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Well until the OP picks up the letter and unless he relays it to us, we won't know. The ball is in his court, but he hasn't been back......yet.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    i'm just a little bit skeptical because in the last 1-2 weeks the michigan forum has had several new threads started by new users who post once and leave. it's not typical here, so if this is a legit question, apologies to the OP. dr todd, i thought michigan's supreme court had found that a citizenship requirement for firearms was unconstitutional according to michigan's constitution, but i don't remember the case.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 12-05-2013 at 05:55 AM.
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  16. #16
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    I think, regardless of his post, that he means something other than what he said. There is a small wave going through the country about being a soverign citizen. Meaning, he does not consent to being governed by the US government. Some believe the US has become, or already was, a corporation. The right to travel is the most common right I have seen expressed in the movement. His actions have done nothing but poke a sleeping bear. What most soverign acting individuals do is simply throw their DL, license plate, registration in the trash and allow them to lapse. Its what he should have done. Same with the CPL. He needs neither to possess and carry a firearm in Michigan.

    My dad always said, "If you dont know how to fight, dont step into the ring.". Sounds like the OP got it wrong.

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  17. #17
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Troll senses "screaming" on this one...hope I'm wrong.

    Gun Boards seats are for pompus losers who cannot get another loftier appointed position. They IMHO need to be eliminated & have one central group take over this "simple" process. Just my take, YMMV...
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 12-05-2013 at 02:04 PM.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    I think, regardless of his post, that he means something other than what he said. There is a small wave going through the country about being a soverign citizen. Meaning, he does not consent to being governed by the US government. Some believe the US has become, or already was, a corporation. The right to travel is the most common right I have seen expressed in the movement. His actions have done nothing but poke a sleeping bear. What most soverign acting individuals do is simply throw their DL, license plate, registration in the trash and allow them to lapse. Its what he should have done. Same with the CPL. He needs neither to possess and carry a firearm in Michigan.

    My dad always said, "If you dont know how to fight, dont step into the ring.". Sounds like the OP got it wrong.

    Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk
    Sure if he wants to fight from the other side of the jail bars. I agree with the mentality, however until the laws change this is what we are left with. Can you afford these fights in court? I know I can't. If you can, then please lead by example.
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  19. #19
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    Yeah, like "We the People."
    Couldn't agree more! +1
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    I don't see how a person who is not a citizen can expect constitutional rights. Wasn't that a problem in Guantonimo?
    civil rights apply to all people. citizens or not. so does due process, so gitmo should be considered highly illegal. you can't indefinitely detain someone. and if you are calling someone a prisoner of war, you sure as hell can't hold them for the rest of their life. they go home after the war. that's the problem with declaring war on an idea (like terrorism). this whole mentality that rights don't apply to some people is a huge problem and it's going to bite every american citizen in the ass. mark my words.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  21. #21
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Troll senses "screaming" on this one...hope I'm wrong.

    Gun Boards seats are for pompus losers who cannot get another loftier appointed position. They IMHO need to be eliminated & have one central group take over this "simple" process. Just my take, YMMV...
    Even if the OP was trolling the thread has a lot of good info in it
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Even if the OP was trolling the thread has a lot of good info in it
    QFT.

    Practice makes perfect - it is good mental exercise
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
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    This person brought on their own problems. Why are we going to debate this issue?

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    This person brought on their own problems. Why are we going to debate this issue?
    Because perhaps someone can learn from the mistakes other people make before they go off and make those mistakes for themselves.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    This person brought on their own problems. Why are we going to debate this issue?
    because the right to bear arms is a natural right and not a right that is given or taken at the whim of a tin-pot dictator or piece of paper.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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