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Help in Ottawa County.

whap

New member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
4
Location
ottawa county
I have a conceal carry permit from Ottawa county. I had the audacity to write to the SOS and say that I have the right to travel without having to pay for, or carry, a drivers license. In the letter I said that I an not a Citizen of the U.S. ( meaning the D.C Corporation U.S) That I am a citizen of the Republic, now the Gun board is trying to find a way to revoke my permit. (Saying I revoked my citizenship). I explained the citizen of the Republic thing, but they said they were going to leave it open, now they sent a (third) registered letter, ( I have not picked up yet, it is at the post office)They are trying to have me go before the board for a second time. I was hopping that someone could advise my as to handle the meeting, or If someone could join me when they give me a date to show up.
 

Raggs

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
1,181
Location
Wild Wild West Michigan
I have a conceal carry permit from Ottawa county. I had the audacity to write to the SOS and say that I have the right to travel without having to pay for, or carry, a drivers license. In the letter I said that I an not a Citizen of the U.S. ( meaning the D.C Corporation U.S) That I am a citizen of the Republic, now the Gun board is trying to find a way to revoke my permit. (Saying I revoked my citizenship). I explained the citizen of the Republic thing, but they said they were going to leave it open, now they sent a (third) registered letter, ( I have not picked up yet, it is at the post office)They are trying to have me go before the board for a second time. I was hopping that someone could advise my as to handle the meeting, or If someone could join me when they give me a date to show up.

You sent the SOS a letter saying you will drive without a license?
 
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DanM

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,928
Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
I have a conceal carry permit from Ottawa county. . . . I have the right to travel without having to pay for, or carry, a drivers license. . . . I was hopping that someone could advise my as to handle the meeting, or If someone could join me when they give me a date to show up.

If you do not need a drivers license to travel, why is there a need to have a CC license to carry? Serious question. I'm trying to understand why you don't care about SOS and their drivers license, but you seem to care about the gun board and their carry license?

To put it succinctly, why not just write to the gun board as you did the SOS and say, "I have the right to carry a firearm concealed without having to pay for, or carry, a concealed pistols license." Please explain the difference, my friend.
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Welcome to OCDO whap

We don't generally recommend that people go into a situation like that pro se - representing themselves.

IMO - this would be a good time to seek competant legal representation.


Been said beore - we do not need a driving license to "travel", only to drive. IANAL
 
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davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
I cannot ready you letter to SOS from here ... so I have nothing to offer.

Why tell SOS you are not a citizen? A DL license has zip to do with that.

And why bother sending a letter to SOS at all?

Neither the state SOS or the board can make a determination about citizenship .. they only have authority to rule on the subject matter that the state legislature allows them to do.

(and I think DLs are not mandatory myself--yeah, I'm a libertarian maximus lol)

They'll ask you "are you a citizen?" than ask them "define citizen"..they'll say born in the USA blah blah blah ... then just answer "I was born in the USA". If you have a passport, that will be proof enough.
 
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Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
Well here we go again bad advice leads to more bad advice.

First of all there is a Legal way to renounce Citizenship and if not done this way it is mere words with no legal holding. I wish people on this site would study before running off at the mouth making false claims.

Now for your act, yes you are legally correct, but the courts are corrupt and do not follow Constitutional laws, and nor do Judges keep their OATH of office.

So lets establish a few facts instead of the answers other gave that border on hysteria.

Fact: you do not need a "Drivers license" to travel because Driver is a legal description of someone who transports goods and engages in commerce. We travel, we don't drive unless we are engaged in commerce.

Fact: You do not need a Concealed carry license to keep or "bear" arms as we all know.

BUT!

Once again the entire system is completely corrupt and we have in every stage of Government criminals running the show and this is based on Constitutional law. The Supreme Court only interprets laws and unless we challenge our elected Congress to enact laws to clear up Bad and terrible Supreme court stupidity posing as opinions, then we the people are at fault.

My biggest problem is with your decision to walk up to the giant and kick him in the testicles so to speak.

I always tell people that you don't stop a speeding runaway train by throwing your body on the tracks.

Can you climb Mt Everest? Maybe, others have done it, but do you think you are ready for such a challenge?

Pick your fights carefully and sometimes it is best to bite ones tongue, and wait till the time is right.

Here is the legal Federal Law way to renounce ones citizenship. see link below, and learn from this, you are only one person. So think things through.


http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html


Remember those in power always deal your cards and they use a stacked deck, and short of a serious change in this country that in my humble opinion, will never come, as people like slavery. They love being told what to do.




I have a conceal carry permit from Ottawa county. I had the audacity to write to the SOS and say that I have the right to travel without having to pay for, or carry, a drivers license. In the letter I said that I an not a Citizen of the U.S. ( meaning the D.C Corporation U.S) That I am a citizen of the Republic, now the Gun board is trying to find a way to revoke my permit. (Saying I revoked my citizenship). I explained the citizen of the Republic thing, but they said they were going to leave it open, now they sent a (third) registered letter, ( I have not picked up yet, it is at the post office)They are trying to have me go before the board for a second time. I was hopping that someone could advise my as to handle the meeting, or If someone could join me when they give me a date to show up.
 
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davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:

appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
sign an oath of renunciation

Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect. Because of the provisions of Section 349(a)(5), U.S. citizens cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent, or while in the United States. In fact, U.S. courts have held certain attempts to renounce U.S. citizenship to be ineffective on a variety of grounds, as discussed below.


I resign from the human race !!!! Take THAT SOS....
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Welcome. Whap. Glad to have another local on the boards.


Although people are expressing what may seem very different views regarding this, I think there are some common threads that you need to consider.


Because I can't do this using a Socratic dialogue, please bear with me. I am not trying to sound "preachy" or "telling you what to do"; the method of communication does not really allow anything else.




# 1
Theoretically, Bailenforcer and davidmcbeth are correct, but I think you know that.


Bailenforcer is correct that, in the eyes of many who follow a literal, interpretation of the US Constitution and couple that with the understanding promulgated by many, if not all, of our country’s founders, what you have done is only stating the truth and have roused the beast in doing so.


In support of davidmcbeth’s point, since you were given a CPL at one point in time, and one of the legal requirements is that the person applying be a US citizen, you must have met that requirement at one point in time. Therefore, since the Federal Government has specified a specific process that needs to be followed in order to renounce one’s citizenship”. Unless you have done as required, your “citizenship” has not changed. A county board does not have the authority to over-ride federal law in regards to citizenship...if this is the reason they deny your CPL. We don't know this yet but I don't think they would argue that point when there is a much easier point that they could argue more likely to be successful. (I'll get to that later)


#2.
We live in a society in which a majority of people, especially those in power, do not acknowledge #1. Actually, not only do those people not acknowledge the truth of #1, they actively oppose those who espouse such views in the most strenuous way possible…up to, and including, violence. Since it can come to that, perhaps a better word for it would be “war”. So, imho, you have provoked a fight and are now having second thoughts about that decision. Personally, if I am going to possibly have to wage a battle, in whatever form my adversary may appear, I try to prepare for possible reactions to my activities and develop counter-actions. Much like a chess game, I think in order to win a battle a person must be able to effectively predict your adversary’s behavior and plan for those possibilities. This is shown by my choice to carry a pistol and it is found in my researching law to understand what I may be up against in any confrontation.




It appears you may not have done that. Perhaps you believed that Michigan is “shall issue” and if you meet verifiable criteria, they would never deny a person the privilege of getting a CPL? Perhaps you mistakenly believed that since Ottawa County is a “Republican Stronghold”, you thought the elected leaders with an “R” in front of their name actually supported your rights, if even in a small way, and would hand out CPLs with wild abandon?

You could not be more incorrect.

You chose the one county that has repeatedly denied CPLs to people otherwise qualified…even under their very demanding rules. There have been a few who have come here to ask for help or just complain about Ottawa County. I feel for you, but unless you are willing to spend massive amounts of money on attorneys and have a few years to fight this, you will most likely lose. Don’t believe me, see:

HEINDLMEYER v. OTTAWA CTY. CONCEALED WEAPONS LIC. BD.
DOCKET NO. 255738.
707 N.W.2d 353 (2005)
268 Mich. App. 202

http://www.leagle.com/decision/20051060707NW2d353_1752




The law says:


(7) The concealed weapon licensing board shall issue a license to an applicant to carry a concealed pistol within the period required under this act after the applicant properly submits an application under subsection (1) and the concealed weapon licensing board determines that all of the following circumstances exist:
* * *
(n) Issuing a license to the applicant to carry a concealed pistol in this state is not detrimental to the safety of the applicant or to any other individual. A determination under this subdivision shall be based on clear and convincing evidence of repeated violations of this act,2 crimes, personal protection orders or injunctions, or police reports or other clear and convincing evidence of the actions of, or statements of, the applicant that bear directly on the applicant's ability to carry a concealed pistol.
((M.C.L. § 28.425b (7)(n))


The CPL board reads this as: “If we feel based on the information we have that you’re a danger to this com¬munity, we will reject your application,”
See pg 2 of this article:
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/x1849222828/Who-s-packing-heat-and-why?zc_p=1

So, I sincerely wish you luck in your attempt to mitigate your behavior which, imho, was not very well thought out…considering you are now regretting it. You would most likely prevail, but the cost will likely be exorbitant. Their argument would most likely be that by sending that letter to the board, you have given them "clear and convincing evidence" that "bears directly on the applicant's ability to carry a concealed pistol". SO, prepare to argue against that...if that is the reason that they denied the CPL.
 
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SD40VE

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2013
Messages
91
Location
North Macomb CO, MI
Welcome. Whap. Glad to have another local on the boards.


Although people are expressing what may seem very different views regarding this, I think there are some common threads that you need to consider.


Because I can't do this using a Socratic dialogue, please bear with me. I am not trying to sound "preachy" or "telling you what to do"; the method of communication does not really allow anything else.




# 1
Theoretically, Bailenforcer and davidmcbeth are correct, but I think you know that.


Bailenforcer is correct that, in the eyes of many who follow a literal, interpretation of the US Constitution and couple that with the understanding promulgated by many, if not all, of our country’s founders, what you have done is only stating the truth and have roused the beast in doing so.


In support of davidmcbeth’s point, since you were given a CPL at one point in time, and one of the legal requirements is that the person applying be a US citizen, you must have met that requirement at one point in time. Therefore, since the Federal Government has specified a specific process that needs to be followed in order to renounce one’s citizenship”. Unless you have done as required, your “citizenship” has not changed. A county board does not have the authority to over-ride federal law in regards to citizenship...if this is the reason they deny your CPL. We don't know this yet but I don't think they would argue that point when there is a much easier point that they could argue more likely to be successful. (I'll get to that later)


#2.
We live in a society in which a majority of people, especially those in power, do not acknowledge #1. Actually, not only do those people not acknowledge the truth of #1, they actively oppose those who espouse such views in the most strenuous way possible…up to, and including, violence. Since it can come to that, perhaps a better word for it would be “war”. So, imho, you have provoked a fight and are now having second thoughts about that decision. Personally, if I am going to possibly have to wage a battle, in whatever form my adversary may appear, I try to prepare for possible reactions to my activities and develop counter-actions. Much like a chess game, I think in order to win a battle a person must be able to effectively predict your adversary’s behavior and plan for those possibilities. This is shown by my choice to carry a pistol and it is found in my researching law to understand what I may be up against in any confrontation.




It appears you may not have done that. Perhaps you believed that Michigan is “shall issue” and if you meet verifiable criteria, they would never deny a person the privilege of getting a CPL? Perhaps you mistakenly believed that since Ottawa County is a “Republican Stronghold”, you thought the elected leaders with an “R” in front of their name actually supported your rights, if even in a small way, and would hand out CPLs with wild abandon?

You could not be more incorrect.

You chose the one county that has repeatedly denied CPLs to people otherwise qualified…even under their very demanding rules. There have been a few who have come here to ask for help or just complain about Ottawa County. I feel for you, but unless you are willing to spend massive amounts of money on attorneys and have a few years to fight this, you will most likely lose. Don’t believe me, see:

HEINDLMEYER v. OTTAWA CTY. CONCEALED WEAPONS LIC. BD.
DOCKET NO. 255738.
707 N.W.2d 353 (2005)
268 Mich. App. 202

http://www.leagle.com/decision/20051060707NW2d353_1752




The law says:


(7) The concealed weapon licensing board shall issue a license to an applicant to carry a concealed pistol within the period required under this act after the applicant properly submits an application under subsection (1) and the concealed weapon licensing board determines that all of the following circumstances exist:
* * *
(n) Issuing a license to the applicant to carry a concealed pistol in this state is not detrimental to the safety of the applicant or to any other individual. A determination under this subdivision shall be based on clear and convincing evidence of repeated violations of this act,2 crimes, personal protection orders or injunctions, or police reports or other clear and convincing evidence of the actions of, or statements of, the applicant that bear directly on the applicant's ability to carry a concealed pistol.
((M.C.L. § 28.425b (7)(n))


The CPL board reads this as: “If we feel based on the information we have that you’re a danger to this com¬munity, we will reject your application,”
See pg 2 of this article:
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/x1849222828/Who-s-packing-heat-and-why?zc_p=1

So, I sincerely wish you luck in your attempt to mitigate your behavior which, imho, was not very well thought out…considering you are now regretting it. You would most likely prevail, but the cost will likely be exorbitant. Their argument would most likely be that by sending that letter to the board, you have given them "clear and convincing evidence" that "bears directly on the applicant's ability to carry a concealed pistol". SO, prepare to argue against that...if that is the reason that they denied the CPL.

+1 for a great answer
 

22Luke36

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
472
Location
Above and Beyond.
I have a conceal carry permit from Ottawa county. I had the audacity to write to the SOS and say that I have the right to travel without having to pay for, or carry, a drivers license. In the letter I said that I an not a Citizen of the U.S. ( meaning the D.C Corporation U.S) That I am a citizen of the Republic, now the Gun board is trying to find a way to revoke my permit. (Saying I revoked my citizenship). I explained the citizen of the Republic thing, but they said they were going to leave it open, now they sent a (third) registered letter, ( I have not picked up yet, it is at the post office)They are trying to have me go before the board for a second time. I was hopping that someone could advise my as to handle the meeting, or If someone could join me when they give me a date to show up.


I agree with you in theory. What I would like if you would, is to explain where you are coming from here. Seems like you have a couple different points to make. I have heard a little about this argument of yours and I'm inclined to believe you, but without some sort of proof, some citations, I am hesitant. I don't think it's a winnable argument unfortunately, but I'd like to research it a little bit more. Bailenforcer and DrTodd both gave you some amazing advice, I think you should do a little backpedaling here, and hold your cards for now.


If you do not need a drivers license to travel, why is there a need to have a CC license to carry? Serious question. I'm trying to understand why you don't care about SOS and their drivers license, but you seem to care about the gun board and their carry license?

To put it succinctly, why not just write to the gun board as you did the SOS and say, "I have the right to carry a firearm concealed without having to pay for, or carry, a concealed pistols license." Please explain the difference, my friend.

I don't see where there is a difference really.
 
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smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
I have a conceal carry permit from Ottawa county. I had the audacity to write to the SOS and say that I have the right to travel without having to pay for, or carry, a drivers license. In the letter I said that I an not a Citizen of the U.S. ( meaning the D.C Corporation U.S) That I am a citizen of the Republic, now the Gun board is trying to find a way to revoke my permit. (Saying I revoked my citizenship). I explained the citizen of the Republic thing, but they said they were going to leave it open, now they sent a (third) registered letter, ( I have not picked up yet, it is at the post office)They are trying to have me go before the board for a second time. I was hopping that someone could advise my as to handle the meeting, or If someone could join me when they give me a date to show up.
assuming this is a serious question and you are not trolling us, i'm pretty sure you are lying about the gun board trying to revoke your CPL since there is no requirement for you to be a citizen in order to possess a michigan CPL.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
assuming this is a serious question and you are not trolling us, i'm pretty sure you are lying about the gun board trying to revoke your CPL since there is no requirement for you to be a citizen in order to possess a Michigan CPL.

I don't think he really knows because, at least at the time he wrote the post, he hadn't picked up the response from the gun board. Unless I read it incorrectly, his assumption is that the content of his statement is going to cause the board to rescind his CPL. I would guess that his citizenship won't be the reason, rather it will be that he felt compelled to write a letter stating what he did.

Looking at the CPL application, there appears to be a requirement that the applicant be both a citizen of the United States (or an immigrant alien lawfully admitted into the United States) and of Michigan. However, I am aware that there was a recent court out-of-state that ruled a state can't require US citizenship in regards to firearm possession, I could be wrong though.

From the MSP website:

RI-012i (10/2010) MICHIGAN STATE POLICE
Page 1 of 8


CONCEALED PISTOL LICENSE GUIDE
The information within this guide is required to be provided to Concealed Pistol License applicants. The applicant must
complete the Concealed Pistol License Application and return the unsigned form, a passport-quality photograph, and
documentation of the required training to the county clerk’s office.

To view a complete copy of the Michigan Concealed Pistol License law, visit a local library or the Michigan State Police’s Web
site at www.michigan.gov/msp. A complete copy of the firearms laws of this state shall be furnished upon filing an application.


I. Concealed Pistol License Requirements

A. State Requirements

Applicants for a Michigan Concealed Pistol License must:

1. Be at least 21 years of age.

2. Be a citizen of the United States or an immigrant alien lawfully admitted into the United States.

3. Be a resident of the State of Michigan for at least 6 months prior to application. An applicant is a state resident if one of the
following applies:

 The applicant possesses a valid, lawfully obtained Michigan driver’s license or state identification card
 The applicant is lawfully registered to vote in Michigan
 The applicant is on active duty status with the United States Armed Forces and stationed outside of Michigan, but
Michigan is the home of record
 The applicant is on active duty status with the United States Armed Forces and is permanently stationed in
Michigan, but the home of record is another state

Note: The 6-month residency requirement may be waived by the concealed pistol licensing board for new
residents licensed by another state.

4. Have successfully completed a pistol safety training course.

5.......
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Well until the OP picks up the letter and unless he relays it to us, we won't know. The ball is in his court, but he hasn't been back......yet.
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
i'm just a little bit skeptical because in the last 1-2 weeks the michigan forum has had several new threads started by new users who post once and leave. it's not typical here, so if this is a legit question, apologies to the OP. dr todd, i thought michigan's supreme court had found that a citizenship requirement for firearms was unconstitutional according to michigan's constitution, but i don't remember the case.
 
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Tucker6900

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,279
Location
Iowa, USA
I think, regardless of his post, that he means something other than what he said. There is a small wave going through the country about being a soverign citizen. Meaning, he does not consent to being governed by the US government. Some believe the US has become, or already was, a corporation. The right to travel is the most common right I have seen expressed in the movement. His actions have done nothing but poke a sleeping bear. What most soverign acting individuals do is simply throw their DL, license plate, registration in the trash and allow them to lapse. Its what he should have done. Same with the CPL. He needs neither to possess and carry a firearm in Michigan.

My dad always said, "If you dont know how to fight, dont step into the ring.". Sounds like the OP got it wrong.

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk
 

FreeInAZ

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
2,508
Location
Secret Bunker
Troll senses "screaming" on this one...hope I'm wrong.

Gun Boards seats are for pompus losers who cannot get another loftier appointed position. They IMHO need to be eliminated & have one central group take over this "simple" process. Just my take, YMMV...
 
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