Help in Ottawa County.

Ezerharden · Dec 5, 2013

Tucker6900 said:
I think, regardless of his post, that he means something other than what he said. There is a small wave going through the country about being a soverign citizen. Meaning, he does not consent to being governed by the US government. Some believe the US has become, or already was, a corporation. The right to travel is the most common right I have seen expressed in the movement. His actions have done nothing but poke a sleeping bear. What most soverign acting individuals do is simply throw their DL, license plate, registration in the trash and allow them to lapse. Its what he should have done. Same with the CPL. He needs neither to possess and carry a firearm in Michigan.

My dad always said, "If you dont know how to fight, dont step into the ring.". Sounds like the OP got it wrong.

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Sure if he wants to fight from the other side of the jail bars. I agree with the mentality, however until the laws change this is what we are left with. Can you afford these fights in court? I know I can't. If you can, then please lead by example.

FreeInAZ · Dec 5, 2013

22Luke36 said:
Yeah, like "We the People."

Couldn't agree more! +1

smellslikemichigan · Dec 5, 2013

22Luke36 said:
I don't see how a person who is not a citizen can expect constitutional rights. Wasn't that a problem in Guantonimo?

civil rights apply to all people. citizens or not. so does due process, so gitmo should be considered highly illegal. you can't indefinitely detain someone. and if you are calling someone a prisoner of war, you sure as hell can't hold them for the rest of their life. they go home after the war. that's the problem with declaring war on an idea (like terrorism). this whole mentality that rights don't apply to some people is a huge problem and it's going to bite every american citizen in the ass. mark my words.

22Luke36 · Dec 6, 2013

I agree, for the most part. They are not citizens however, they are prisoners of war, and there are rights and laws that are written for them for their protection and prosecution.

Constitutional rights are for citizens only.

Raggs · Dec 6, 2013

FreeInAZ said:
Troll senses "screaming" on this one...hope I'm wrong.

Gun Boards seats are for pompus losers who cannot get another loftier appointed position. They IMHO need to be eliminated & have one central group take over this "simple" process. Just my take, YMMV...

Even if the OP was trolling the thread has a lot of good info in it

Grapeshot · Dec 6, 2013

Raggs said:
Even if the OP was trolling the thread has a lot of good info in it

QFT.

Practice makes perfect - it is good mental exercise

budlight · Dec 6, 2013

This person brought on their own problems. Why are we going to debate this issue?

Bikenut · Dec 6, 2013

budlight said:
This person brought on their own problems. Why are we going to debate this issue?

Because perhaps someone can learn from the mistakes other people make before they go off and make those mistakes for themselves.

smellslikemichigan · Dec 6, 2013

budlight said:
This person brought on their own problems. Why are we going to debate this issue?

because the right to bear arms is a natural right and not a right that is given or taken at the whim of a tin-pot dictator or piece of paper.

22Luke36 · Dec 6, 2013

Bikenut said:
Because perhaps someone can learn from the mistakes other people make before they go off and make those mistakes for themselves.

I'm not so eager to call doing the right thing for the right reasons a mistake.

Grapeshot · Dec 6, 2013

Originally Posted by Bikenut

Because perhaps someone can learn from the [strike]mistakes[/strike] actions other people make before they go off and make [strike]those[/strike] mistakes [strike]for[/strike] themselves.

22Luke36 said:
I'm not so eager to call doing the right thing for the right reasons a mistake.

Fixed it for him

22Luke36 · Dec 6, 2013

I don't think that doing it is wise, but I can find more fault in the rest of us for putting up with it, than I can find against him.

DrTodd · Dec 7, 2013

22Luke36 said:
I don't think that doing it is wise, but I can find more fault in the rest of us for putting up with it, than I can find against him.

What has been gained by his action? Has he furthered his cause? Yet, there are patriots doing so much more for liberty behind the scenes every day...working within the system to effect change. It may be slow at times, there may be momentary setbacks, but progress is made.

Is there a place for direct action? Yes, and if done correctly will not only earn respect of fellow believers, but will likely earn the respect of those on the fence.... and sometimes even those on the other side.

I have no qualms with his voluntary "insubordination"... just his not being prepared to last a little longer than cowering at the first response. He couldn't even find the courage to read the letter from the gun board.

TheQ · Dec 7, 2013

Guy makes one post 4 days ago and hasn't returned. Either:

1) He's not as wigged out about it as he let on.
2) He's trolling.
3) Decided his CPL isn't important/doesn't want to carry concealed.
4) Decided to carry concealed because it's his right, government Gestapo/gang be damned. In this case he'll probably get busted some day and end up on probation or in a cage. Either way, the gang will put a big black mark on his name and he'll never own a gun again -- at least not while complying with the gang's rules -- at least, not unless the gang changes it's rules in a way that favors us.

I really don't care which. Just throwing it out there.

22Luke36 · Dec 7, 2013

DrTodd said:
What has been gained by his action? Has he furthered his cause? Yet, there are patriots doing so much more for liberty behind the scenes every day...working within the system to effect change. It may be slow at times, there may be momentary setbacks, but progress is made.

Is there a place for direct action? Yes, and if done correctly will not only earn respect of fellow believers, but will likely earn the respect of those on the fence.... and sometimes even those on the other side.

I have no qualms with his voluntary "insubordination"... just his not being prepared to last a little longer than cowering at the first response. He couldn't even find the courage to read the letter from the gun board.

What was gained...I thing all he did, was get a few people talking about an ignored problem. Not necessarily a bad thing, a small step but I don't think this guy was going for total victory overnight either. As far as people working to effect change, I'm just not convinced that is the correct path though I don't know what the right path may be. A problem like this one would require a reeducation of the masses in what a license is, and that the .gov has the right to do or not. Then, the people would have to stand against the system through boycott but nobody frankly, has the nuts to do it. Those who do, are classed as extreme but I think that's an issue of perspective. It's the rest of us, the sheeple in this case, that have caused the extreme to become normal through ignorance of the law.

Conclusion. The guy did the right thing the wrong way out of frustration and a strong sense of loyalty to what this country was supposed to be. I can't hate on the guy for it, and I'm a little bit ashamed of the rest of us for not joining him and ending this problem through a boycott or a strike of some sort.

Tucker6900 · Dec 7, 2013

Ezerharden said:
Sure if he wants to fight from the other side of the jail bars. I agree with the mentality, however until the laws change this is what we are left with. Can you afford these fights in court? I know I can't. If you can, then please lead by example.

Unfortunately, I cant give mine up. Its required for work. Id be interested to see if anyone has won, or is in the process of fighting a case like this.

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Tucker6900 · Dec 7, 2013

22Luke36 said:
Conclusion. The guy did the right thing the wrong way out of frustration and a strong sense of loyalty to what this country was supposed to be. I can't hate on the guy for it, and I'm a little bit ashamed of the rest of us for not joining him and ending this problem through a boycott or a strike of some sort.

+1

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DrTodd · Dec 7, 2013

22Luke36 said:
What was gained...I thing all he did, was get a few people talking about an ignored problem. Not necessarily a bad thing, a small step but I don't think this guy was going for total victory overnight either. As far as people working to effect change, I'm just not convinced that is the correct path though I don't know what the right path may be. A problem like this one would require a reeducation of the masses in what a license is, and that the .gov has the right to do or not. Then, the people would have to stand against the system through boycott but nobody frankly, has the nuts to do it. Those who do, are classed as extreme but I think that's an issue of perspective. It's the rest of us, the sheeple in this case, that have caused the extreme to become normal through ignorance of the law.

Conclusion. The guy did the right thing the wrong way out of frustration and a strong sense of loyalty to what this country was supposed to be. I can't hate on the guy for it, and I'm a little bit ashamed of the rest of us for not joining him and ending this problem through a boycott or a strike of some sort.

Assuming his CPL was revoked, and we can't know for sure if that is true, I would actually argue he did the "wrong thing" the "wrong way". His original action may have been OK, but ONLY if he was/is willing to continue the battle and not back down at the first push-back. Assuming the board has actually declared his license "null and void" over his letter, his inability to counter the board's action set a precedent in the board members' minds that they can do as they wish regarding CPLs...and there will not be any consequences. So, how many people have sued having either had their CPL denied or, even more questionable, revoked in Ottawa County? The board is being increasingly emboldened by having no effective check on their power by those they exert their power upon.

I've spoken to more than a handful of individuals who are afraid of dealing with the Ottawa Gun Board because they are thwarted along the way...people "allowing" this to continue by not being prepared to fight this type of power only increases the probability they will continue to act as they do. It would have been a better plan to actually prepare a strategy beforehand.

Bikenut · Dec 7, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Originally Posted by Bikenut

Because perhaps someone can learn from the [strike]mistakes[/strike] actions other people make before they go off and make [strike]those[/strike] mistakes [strike]for[/strike] themselves.

Click to expand...

Originally Posted by 22Luke36

I'm not so eager to call doing the right thing for the right reasons a mistake.

Click to expand...

Fixed it for him

There isn't any need to "fix" my post since if the OP didn't think his actions through and wasn't willing to carry the fight all the way then it was a ... mistake for him... to engage in an action that had repercussions he is now not happy with.

I'll say it again...

Originally Posted by Bikenut

Because perhaps someone can learn from the mistakes other people make before they go off and make those mistakes for themselves.

It has nothing to do with doing the right thing and everything to do with doing the right thing and not thinking about, or being prepared to deal with, the consequences. And that IS a "mistake".

And to those who like to "fix it for you" by changing the wording in someone elses post kindly realize that if anything ever happened a prosecutor WILL use the "fixed for you post" to his advantage without necessarily making mention that I didn't say it... you did.

DanM · Dec 7, 2013

22Luke36 said:
DanM said:

If you do not need a drivers license to travel, why is there a need to have a CC license to carry? Serious question. I'm trying to understand why you don't care about SOS and their drivers license, but you seem to care about the gun board and their carry license?

To put it succinctly, why not just write to the gun board as you did the SOS and say, "I have the right to carry a firearm concealed without having to pay for, or carry, a concealed pistols license." Please explain the difference, my friend.

Click to expand...

I don't see where there is a difference really.

Me neither. But the OP evidently perceives one in his mind, where he could care less about retaining one gov't license but evidently cares about retaining some other gov't license. That seems to me to be irrational, but maybe I'm missing something.

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