LEO Tips for NC OC'ers

MilesVeritatis · Dec 7, 2013

Hey guys, brief introduction.

I started OC'ing after finding this site a few years ago before I was 21 and was new to firearms. I had an attempted mugging I was fortunate enough to escape unscathed and decided to find the best way to defend myself in the future. Being over 18 and under 21, I determined that OC'ing was the best course of action for me. When I turned 21, I went through Basic Law Enforcement Training and got hired at a Sheriff's Office. I've been a Deputy for two years now, I've worked patrol, in the courthouse, and currently work in pistol/CCW permits. I've received training in all three areas, and recently had the privilege of taking a comprehensive firearms law course covering the new laws taught by John Aldridge (the retired assistant attorney general who writes the firearms publication I'm sure most of you have downloaded and read). I got to ask Mr. Aldridge some questions during and after the seminar, specifically regarding OC (as that relates to my experiences pre-LEO directly), and I want to share some tips with you guys from my experiences.

1. Myself, the majority of my coworkers, and most cops I know are very pro-2A. We know how long it takes us to respond to something, and we know armed citizens are less likely to become casualties in the event of a violent crime. But, that doesn't mean we're freed form an obligation to investigate if someone calls us and reports "a man with a gun." If that's the call I'm dispatched to, I'm going to locate you, ask you some questions, and I may ask to unload your gun while we're speaking. I don't want to disarm you or strip you of your rights, but I know how the wrong type of person will behave if I happen to strike the wrong nerve with a question, or someone who is actively hiding from or pitted against law enforcement. I'm at the disadvantage, because as soon as I walk up, you know who I am and why I'm there, I have no idea about you, though. If it's one of you guys just being chill, there's a 100% chance I'm going to make contact with the caller and inform them that I investigated and you were simply behaving peacefully and legally. I want people to understand your rights as well as you do, but causing a big scene will only hurt your case in the eyes of the disbelievers. Letting me talk to you, then inform the caller of my findings, will help you guys out a lot more than being standoffish, I promise.

2. This is easily mis-understood, so I asked Mr. Aldridge myself after the seminar. The new regulations that went into effect this past October relating to concealed carry ONLY apply to CCW permit holders WHILE carrying concealed. That distinction is important. If you have your CCW, you cannot OC into the previously prohibited places that changed with the law, the firearm must be concealed or else you are still in violation. I know that won't make you guys happy, especially not here, but remember, this is all politics. The members of the General Assembly who are pushing for expanded gun rights have a lot of hurdles to overcome. I'm about 90% certain that once these rules have been in place long enough to show that allowing concealed carry in these establishments hasn't caused any problems, then future expansions of gun rights will swiftly be on their heels. Sometimes slow and steady wins the race.

3. I carry all the time, even off duty, and I completely think you guys should too. I also think training is an important part of being a responsible firearms owner. That being said, I like our CCW model. Part of the new laws I completely agree with is that CCW records are no longer public, meaning you CCW holders' privacy is protected. I don't think that a class should be necessary to purchase, possess, or carry a gun; however, people are lazy, LEO's too. Difference is, we're required to go to training to keep our jobs. I view our CCW system as sort of a reward-for-effort system. Anyone is rightfully entitled to carry his gun, but to carry concealed, you have to at least take a class once to be briefed on firearms safety and laws, sort of like having a hunting license. I think it could cost less, but the General Assembly set the price, and working in permits, I DO know how much work goes into one of those things. Honestly, it's a toss up whether or not the Sheriff is even making money off permits at all when you count the man hours that go into one. Pistol Permits are a money hole through and through.

4. If you have any questions about firearms laws, feel free to call up your local Sheriff's Office permits unit. We deal with this stuff on a daily basis and frequently contact the Attorney General's Office when we hit a wall. I obviously can't speak for everyone out there, but at least if you live in my jurisdiction, I'm happy to answer your questions, and oftentimes talking to someone about guns is the highlight of my day, because the rest is mind numbing paperwork and red tape. Seriously guys, you may have a few forms to sign out that we may be picky over, but that's because once you pass us the torch, we have to carry it through the red tape minotaur's maze. And that guy is seriously pissy (we affectionately call him the SBI, but if you repeat that I'll deny every word).

That's what was on my mind at the moment, but if you guys have any questions, I'll do my best to answer (or at least point you to someone who can).

Stay safe!

fjpro2a · Dec 7, 2013

Overall, not too bad

Thanks for the "tips." I plan on retiring to NC in a year or two. I wrote a thread about one year ago proposing a "sort of truce" between those who open carry and LEO's. I stated that we should be respectful and show ID, and perhaps answer a few questions (nothing intrusive) AS LONG AS THERE IS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT WHAT WE ARE DOING IS LEGAL. FURTHER, AS YOU STATED, YOU AND PERHAPS THE OPEN CARRIER MUST MAKE CONTACT WITH THE CALLER AND INFORM HIM THAT OPEN CARRYING IS LEGAL. YOU MUST TELL THE CALLER THAT THE OPEN CARRIER HAD NO OBLIGATION TO BE DETAINED, SHOW ID, OR ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS BASED ON WELL-ESTABLISHED LAW, BUT WAS DOING SO ONLY IN THE INTEREST OF LETTING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE LAW. Obviously, this proposal would expire at the end of, say, a year. For the record, my proposal was not accepted well at this site, but I still believe it has merit. Further, I suggest that the dispatchers ask if the open carrier's firearm is holstered or secured, and perhaps let the caller know that this is legal. If someone is brandishing, that's another story. Finally, I understand you are at a disadvantage, but this was known at the time you applied for the position. You will always be at a disadvantage, not just when you approach an open carrier. Thanks for truly informative article.

WalkingWolf · Dec 7, 2013

Most of your post is OK, but why would you answer a call of a man with golf clubs on a golf course? Unless it has changed here in Harnett the deputies will not answer that type of call, or a shots fired call. Unload our firearm for you? Are you kidding? You have not been reading this site very well.

I repeat MY advice, DON'T talk to the police. DON'T consent to giving up your rights. We are citizens and should be treated as citizens NOT criminals.

I realize you are trying to be polite, but you are out of line on certain liberties you wish to take with liberty.

MilesVeritatis · Dec 7, 2013

You know, WalkingWolf, I really do understand your trepidation of officers, especially given the actions of officers in some parts of this country. CA, NJ, NYC, and other similar places are a disgrace. However, I think there's a distinction to be made between inappropriate police action and ALL police action, and I often don't see that distinction made amongst gun rights groups that I'm a member of myself. Oftentimes it's literally impossible for an officer or deputy to simply strike up a conversation with someone precisely because of this increasingly common attitude that cops are perceived, consciously or subconsciously, to be the enemy. From conservatives, it's because of a fear that we're going to take your right to bear arms, from liberals it's a fear that we're going to take... heck, your pot? I'm not even sure. I think lots of liberals hate us just cause it's cool.

But at least make an attempt to put this in perspective: when you approach someone you'd like to speak to, who is visibly armed, and are immediately greeted with hostility, it makes you wary as to that person's intentions. The inability to have a conversation is a severe hindrance to being sociable. I'll finish with this: I've never arrested anyone over a firearm (though I've arrested people for other crimes and it TURNED OUT they had a firearm... though those have a nice habit of being illegal firearms every time), and I've never approached an armed man with the intention of taking his firearm away. How I approach someone I want to speak to is entirely dependent on the circumstances of the encounter, and I see no reason to be impolite or discourteous unless I'm first given a reason.

The only thing that I would ask is that, in the same way that I determine how to approach or speak to someone based on circumstances, that someone show me the same decency in return.

WalkingWolf · Dec 7, 2013

Illegal or unconstitutional police action is not tolerable, no matter how politely done. It IS criminal, the sheriffs dept here does not do it.

YOU should avail yourself of reading Terry V Ohio, and US V Black. The LATTER being a NC incident that IS case law for the state of North Carolina.

Let me give you a hint seeing you must have missed it in College, or they don't teach in the Basic course. Federal court ruled that the presence of a openly carried firearm is NOT RAS of a crime. Without RAS all encounters are consensual, and as consensual there is no basis to HARASS law abiding citizens, or make ILLEGAL seizures of property.

I appreciate your trying to be polite, but I will tell you the same thing I told the last guy. Your badge means diddly here. That is not a insult just to let you know that most of us consider all law abiding citizens to be on level playing field. If you feel otherwise I suggest policeone.com.

Try this on for size LEAVE LAW ABIDING CITIZENS ALONE!.

MilesVeritatis · Dec 7, 2013

Considering I've not once mentioned frisking anyone, nor using open carry as probable cause that a crime has been committed. I have also not said anything about seizing anyone's property, nor about any harassment of anyone (unless you consider the act of making conversation harassment in and of itself... but since you're referencing court cases, I'd challenge you to find one where simply talking to someone in public is considered harassment).

What's becoming clear to me is that you're not interested in any discussion beyond you "educating" me that, no matter what I do or say, I'm wrong because I wear a badge.

If we're all on a level playing field, then why are you arguing that merely engaging in a conversation with me on the street would be an infringement of your rights?

Primus · Dec 7, 2013

MilesVeritatis said:
Hey guys, brief introduction.

I started OC'ing after finding this site a few years ago before I was 21 and was new to firearms. I had an attempted mugging I was fortunate enough to escape unscathed and decided to find the best way to defend myself in the future. Being over 18 and under 21, I determined that OC'ing was the best course of action for me. When I turned 21, I went through Basic Law Enforcement Training and got hired at a Sheriff's Office. I've been a Deputy for two years now, I've worked patrol, in the courthouse, and currently work in pistol/CCW permits. I've received training in all three areas, and recently had the privilege of taking a comprehensive firearms law course covering the new laws taught by John Aldridge (the retired assistant attorney general who writes the firearms publication I'm sure most of you have downloaded and read). I got to ask Mr. Aldridge some questions during and after the seminar, specifically regarding OC (as that relates to my experiences pre-LEO directly), and I want to share some tips with you guys from my experiences.

1. Myself, the majority of my coworkers, and most cops I know are very pro-2A. We know how long it takes us to respond to something, and we know armed citizens are less likely to become casualties in the event of a violent crime. But, that doesn't mean we're freed form an obligation to investigate if someone calls us and reports "a man with a gun." If that's the call I'm dispatched to, I'm going to locate you, ask you some questions, and I may ask to unload your gun while we're speaking. I don't want to disarm you or strip you of your rights, but I know how the wrong type of person will behave if I happen to strike the wrong nerve with a question, or someone who is actively hiding from or pitted against law enforcement. I'm at the disadvantage, because as soon as I walk up, you know who I am and why I'm there, I have no idea about you, though. If it's one of you guys just being chill, there's a 100% chance I'm going to make contact with the caller and inform them that I investigated and you were simply behaving peacefully and legally. I want people to understand your rights as well as you do, but causing a big scene will only hurt your case in the eyes of the disbelievers. Letting me talk to you, then inform the caller of my findings, will help you guys out a lot more than being standoffish, I promise.

2. This is easily mis-understood, so I asked Mr. Aldridge myself after the seminar. The new regulations that went into effect this past October relating to concealed carry ONLY apply to CCW permit holders WHILE carrying concealed. That distinction is important. If you have your CCW, you cannot OC into the previously prohibited places that changed with the law, the firearm must be concealed or else you are still in violation. I know that won't make you guys happy, especially not here, but remember, this is all politics. The members of the General Assembly who are pushing for expanded gun rights have a lot of hurdles to overcome. I'm about 90% certain that once these rules have been in place long enough to show that allowing concealed carry in these establishments hasn't caused any problems, then future expansions of gun rights will swiftly be on their heels. Sometimes slow and steady wins the race.

3. I carry all the time, even off duty, and I completely think you guys should too. I also think training is an important part of being a responsible firearms owner. That being said, I like our CCW model. Part of the new laws I completely agree with is that CCW records are no longer public, meaning you CCW holders' privacy is protected. I don't think that a class should be necessary to purchase, possess, or carry a gun; however, people are lazy, LEO's too. Difference is, we're required to go to training to keep our jobs. I view our CCW system as sort of a reward-for-effort system. Anyone is rightfully entitled to carry his gun, but to carry concealed, you have to at least take a class once to be briefed on firearms safety and laws, sort of like having a hunting license. I think it could cost less, but the General Assembly set the price, and working in permits, I DO know how much work goes into one of those things. Honestly, it's a toss up whether or not the Sheriff is even making money off permits at all when you count the man hours that go into one. Pistol Permits are a money hole through and through.

4. If you have any questions about firearms laws, feel free to call up your local Sheriff's Office permits unit. We deal with this stuff on a daily basis and frequently contact the Attorney General's Office when we hit a wall. I obviously can't speak for everyone out there, but at least if you live in my jurisdiction, I'm happy to answer your questions, and oftentimes talking to someone about guns is the highlight of my day, because the rest is mind numbing paperwork and red tape. Seriously guys, you may have a few forms to sign out that we may be picky over, but that's because once you pass us the torch, we have to carry it through the red tape minotaur's maze. And that guy is seriously pissy (we affectionately call him the SBI, but if you repeat that I'll deny every word).

That's what was on my mind at the moment, but if you guys have any questions, I'll do my best to answer (or at least point you to someone who can).

Stay safe!

Good approach miles. I agree with you throughout. Good luck in the office hope you come back out on the street soon seem to have a basis of knowledge and balanced approach.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Fallschirjmäger · Dec 7, 2013

MilesVeritatis said:
Considering I've not once mentioned frisking anyone, nor using open carry as probable cause that a crime has been committed. I have also not said anything about seizing anyone's property, nor about any harassment of anyone (unless you consider the act of making conversation harassment in and of itself... but since you're referencing court cases, I'd challenge you to find one where simply talking to someone in public is considered harassment).

That's good to know, I guess -

"...and I may ask to unload your gun while we're speaking. I don't want to disarm you or strip you of your rights, but I know how the wrong type of person will behave if I happen to strike the wrong nerve with a question, or someone who is actively hiding from or pitted against law enforcement..."

It's strictly voluntary then?
Good to know, as I don't have voluntary conversations with people who are better armed than I.

Here's the thing; unless you're coming up to me to debate the merits of 9 v .45 then I don't really feel any need to be explain my behavior to you. Unless and until you are exercising your authority to investigate suspected criminality, you have exactly the authority of any other citizen in the same situation... none.

You are of course free to ask any question you like, just as any other citizen is free to ask any question they wish. And, of course, I'm just as free to refuse to engage in a conversation with you, and decline to answer any questions.

In short, my answer to your entire first paragraph is, "Nope, Not Happening. I'm not going to answer any questions unless you have a suspicion of illegality and it's necessary for me to clear my name. I'm not going to willingly disarm. I will however, wish you a very happy day and ask if I'm free to go or if I'm being detained."

WalkingWolf · Dec 7, 2013

Thank you Falls, glad I was not the only one to catch that part of his post.

If it is voluntary, I PASS. There is no need for a law abiding citizen to unload their gun.

MilesVeritatis · Dec 7, 2013

Typically "ask" implies volition whereas "tell" would denote a demand.

WalkingWolf · Dec 7, 2013

MilesVeritatis said:
Typically "ask" implies volition whereas "tell" would denote a demand.

Then you won't mind a "Ohhhh Hell NO!" or a "You first!".

WalkingWolf · Dec 7, 2013

Nightmare said:
Juss point him at the multitudes of threads advising "never speak to a cop," and be done with it.

Gee Zeus, it's like picking at a scab.

LOL~~every time one comes it is the same thing. I am your buddy BUT I will disarm you, and ask you incriminating questions for doing nothing illegal, just because.
Or I support the 2A, and the constitution BUT~~~
I really wish Newbies would read the forums before stepping in it.

MilesVeritatis · Dec 7, 2013

Well, I'm obviously not welcome here. I'll take a hint. Maybe I was wrong to try not to be apprehensive of folks.

For the record, I've been lurking here since 2010 when I joined, and this forum is the reason I started OC'ing back then. Went to a couple of meet ups too. Amazing how fast the community changes simply because I got a job with a badge.

WalkingWolf · Dec 7, 2013

MilesVeritatis said:
Well, I'm obviously not welcome here. I'll take a hint. Maybe I was wrong to try not to be apprehensive of folks.

Everybody is welcome here, police state attitudes are not! I tried to tell you your badge means diddly here, it was not a insult, just the facts.

It's not because you got a job with a badge, there are many current police and retired police on this board who get along just fine. They do leave their badge at the door though.

Primus · Dec 7, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
Everybody is welcome here, police state attitudes are not! I tried to tell you your badge means diddly here, it was not a insult, just the facts.

It's not because you got a job with a badge, there are many current police and retired police on this board who get along just fine. They do leave their badge at the door though.

Haven't met any yet. Just some retired guys it seems. And if there are any active guys then why do they let the senseless broad stroke bashing go on? Which seems to be getting worse by the day.

This is perfect example. A guy comes on here trying to bridge then gap and almost gets run off with pitch forks. But yet its the leos that cause the Us vs. Them mentality? Give me a break.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

WalkingWolf · Dec 7, 2013

Primus said:
Haven't met any yet. Just some retired guys it seems. And if there are any active guys then why do they let the senseless broad stroke bashing go on? Which seems to be getting worse by the day.

This is perfect example. A guy comes on here trying to bridge then gap and almost gets run off with pitch forks. But yet its the leos that cause the Us vs. Them mentality? Give me a break.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

I thought you were not going to engage me? :lol::lol::lol:

Most of the current police officers have enough common sense to know when they are off duty to leave the attitude at the job.

Some are not so bright...

Primus · Dec 7, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
I thought you were not going to engage me? :lol::lol::lol:

Most of the current police officers have enough common sense to know when they are off duty to leave the attitude at the job.

Some are not so bright...

Again I try to engage you but sometimes I'm forced to when you speak senseless garbage.

"They know when they are off duty" doesn't answer my question. I've been engaging the 10 (maybe) guys that post on a regular basis. A few I'm aware of are retired. None have even alluded to being on the job. Even the moderators and some of those retired guys have stepped in to say tone done the Leo bashing. You seem to not get it I guess.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

WalkingWolf · Dec 7, 2013

Primus said:
Again I try to engage you but sometimes I'm forced to when you speak senseless garbage.

"They know when they are off duty" doesn't answer my question. I've been engaging the 10 (maybe) guys that post on a regular basis. A few I'm aware of are retired. None have even alluded to being on the job. Even the moderators and some of those retired guys have stepped in to say tone done the Leo bashing. You seem to not get it I guess.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

I am not bashing LEOs, never have. :lol::lol::lol:

Fuller Malarkey · Dec 7, 2013

MilesVeritatis said:
You know, WalkingWolf, I really do understand your trepidation of officers, especially given the actions of officers in some parts of this country. CA, NJ, NYC, and other similar places are a disgrace. However, I think there's a distinction to be made between inappropriate police action and ALL police action, and I often don't see that distinction made amongst gun rights groups that I'm a member of myself. Oftentimes it's literally impossible for an officer or deputy to simply strike up a conversation with someone precisely because of this increasingly common attitude that cops are perceived, consciously or subconsciously, to be the enemy. From conservatives, it's because of a fear that we're going to take your right to bear arms, from liberals it's a fear that we're going to take... heck, your pot? I'm not even sure. I think lots of liberals hate us just cause it's cool.

But at least make an attempt to put this in perspective: when you approach someone you'd like to speak to, who is visibly armed, and are immediately greeted with hostility, it makes you wary as to that person's intentions. The inability to have a conversation is a severe hindrance to being sociable. I'll finish with this: I've never arrested anyone over a firearm (though I've arrested people for other crimes and it TURNED OUT they had a firearm... though those have a nice habit of being illegal firearms every time), and I've never approached an armed man with the intention of taking his firearm away. How I approach someone I want to speak to is entirely dependent on the circumstances of the encounter, and I see no reason to be impolite or discourteous unless I'm first given a reason.

The only thing that I would ask is that, in the same way that I determine how to approach or speak to someone based on circumstances, that someone show me the same decency in return.

Too wordy. Let me condense this for the noob.

"Just submit. It'll be easier for everyone involved in the long run".

Do you have a thread going on policeone.com about "how to smarm hick OC scrotes into compliance and have them thank you for it"?

Maybe extra credit for a correspondence course in "overcoming objections to the voluntary surrender of rights"?

"The only thing that I would ask is that, in the same way that I determine how to approach or speak to someone based on circumstances, that someone show me the same decency in return."

This statement you made makes no sense. How can I know how you determine how to approach someone?

Or are you too verbally handicapped to say "I wish everyone would respond to me they same way I approach them?

Let me poke some holes in your flawed reasoning here. Your demeanor is no indication of your intent. Spend some time studying child predators. They can be nice, some even offer free candy. By your reasoning, their "nice" approach should negate all concern, and I should encourage my children and all other parents that it's all been a bad misunderstanding, it really is OK for Chimos to be with our kids. It will make the chimo's happy. And everyone knows it's our duty to keep the chimos happy. By your reasoning, we need to dismiss those "isolated incidents" when a "bad apple" just snatches a child and beats it to death. We need to come to terms with the reality that these things just happen, and it'll be better for everyone if we just go along with it. Losing a child here and there is just the price of living in this society.

IF I am engaged in an activity that warrants legal intervention or investigation, what I think of you is a non sequitur. However, in the absence of "probable cause", I have every reason to believe you have one reason to be approaching me: To initiate a prosecution, and you need to dig deeper to find a basis for initiating a suspension of my liberty, money or both. I am under no obligation to cooperate with you in doing that, especially forfeiting any rights.

You know the difference between a used car salesman and a police officer?

A used car salesman must develop people skills that result in positive outcomes, or find different work.

Fuller Malarkey · Dec 7, 2013

MilesVeritatis said:
Well, I'm obviously not welcome here. I'll take a hint. Maybe I was wrong to try not to be apprehensive of folks.

For the record, I've been lurking here since 2010 when I joined, and this forum is the reason I started OC'ing back then. Went to a couple of meet ups too. Amazing how fast the community changes simply because I got a job with a badge.

May I ask you a serious question?

How is it so many people with a gun and badge are so thin skinned?

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