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Thread: CC-onlyers believe in brandishing as deterrence

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    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    Thumbs down CC-onlyers believe in brandishing as deterrence

    I always find it ironic that almost every person I have ever met who was CC-only and hated OC loved to talk about brandishing as a self defense technique. Was just perusing "CCW: Carrying Concealed Weapons" by Jerry Ahern and read this quote which reminded me of these people:

    Carrying a concealed weapon or weapons and being expert in its or their use will avail you absolutely nothing of you are taken by surprise. Indeed, producing a gun when attacked can deter further hostile action. Most weapons drawn are never fired. But, a weapon should never be drawn unless you are prepared to use it because your intelligent assessment of circumstances has left you no other option. Drawing a weapon from concealment is, frequently, offering an attacker one last chance to call things off and leave you alone.
    I'm not saying Ahern is anti-OC, because doesn't go as far as to say that in the book, that I remember. But my point is that he believes that the sight of a gun is a deterrence. Reminds me of a lot of people I know who say the same thing but hate on open carry. They claim that you are at a severe disadvantage if you OC but then they tell all kinds of stories of people pulling guns without shooting them as a self defense method.

    I was just talking to a hunter/NRA kind of guy the other day about OC. He was telling how foolish it was for me to OC but then proceed to tell me about a self defense story of his own where he reached for his concealed gun (but didn't actually draw) which scared the bad guy away. I'm calling that pseudo-OC...! If letting them know you have a gun is your method of self defense, then why do you hate on OC??!
    Last edited by independence; 12-09-2013 at 09:03 PM. Reason: ( )

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Pseudo-OC.....hmm.....me thinks me likey.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Looking like lunch tends to attract predators. If you suddenly find it to your advantage to look like not-lunch, then you're probably going to notice what made that happen - the sight of your defensive pistol suddenly being seen.

    I'd almost be tempted to wager that having it being seen that you're 'not-lunch' in the first place would have stopped anyone from thinking you were on the menu at all. But, we don't hear about all the things that Don't Happen.

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    I would only draw AND fire. But that's just my view ...

    IMO, you either a) draw and fire or b) draw and die


    And CC-ers who believe this, should become OC-ers !
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 12-10-2013 at 04:32 AM.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    The fact of this matter is that when a victim pulls a gun, nearly always his assailant(s) take off in a different direction. We know this from the well-known statistic of how many times a year a victim uses a firearm in their defense vs how many times that victim actually fires that gun. There are somewhere around 1.5 to 2.5 million incidences per year of of victims using firearms in theirs or someone else's defense. However only about 1500 to 1600 BG's are killed every year by their victims. If we factor in the hit rate of somewhere between 60% to 75% of victims and then factor in the death rate, which runs around maybe 25 to 40%, then we come up with a rough figure of perhaps 4500 to 6000 BG's shot a year by their victims. Now if we assume the 2.5 million figure is closer to reality, we get a percentage of around .2%.

    That means that out of 1000 times a firearm is presented by a victim to a BG, only twice is it actually fired. Now these numbers are certainly not precise since such an analysis would be almost impossible to be conducted. And when we factor in those who OC, we will never really know how many BG's were turned away from their plans by the sight of a firearm on someone who was either nearby or the actual intended victim. And the extreme among us could, and I'll bet do, argue that a visible sidearm is in and of itself brandishing.

    Does the presentation of a gun and the immediate departure of the BG(s) amount to brandishing? I would bet this is not the case as long as the intent of the victim was to fire that gun because the instant situation was perceived as a threat to serious his well being. If you pull that gun and the BG(s) take off, you better not fire it in most states. Your grounds for self defense just went out the window. But your gun did one of the jobs it was suppose to do with the same end result. I saved your butt.
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    Regular Member Griz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I would only draw AND fire. But that's just my view ...
    IMO, you either a) draw and fire or b) draw and die
    And CC-ers who believe this, should become OC-ers !
    Our CCW class instructor was all about carrying. He OC or CC depending upon the municipality, as Missouri doesn't have pre-emption.

    He was VERY Christian and even though he firmly believed in self-protection, he promoted the idea that while CC, drawing to de-escalate was a viable option. However, it was completely up to the individual personal decision to fire or not depending upon the perceived threat.

    I open carry when possible, but if unsure of local laws I will cover it up. I cannot fathom being able to make the decision fast enough to pull my weapon, reassess the threat, and then decide to fire or not.

    Either way, you should be calling the police afterwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    The fact of this matter is that when a victim pulls a gun, nearly always his assailant(s) take off in a different direction. We know this from the well-known statistic of how many times a year a victim uses a firearm in their defense vs how many times that victim actually fires that gun. There are somewhere around 1.5 to 2.5 million incidences per year of of victims using firearms in theirs or someone else's defense. However only about 1500 to 1600 BG's are killed every year by their victims. If we factor in the hit rate of somewhere between 60% to 75% of victims and then factor in the death rate, which runs around maybe 25 to 40%, then we come up with a rough figure of perhaps 4500 to 6000 BG's shot a year by their victims. Now if we assume the 2.5 million figure is closer to reality, we get a percentage of around .2%.

    That means that out of 1000 times a firearm is presented by a victim to a BG, only twice is it actually fired. Now these numbers are certainly not precise since such an analysis would be almost impossible to be conducted. And when we factor in those who OC, we will never really know how many BG's were turned away from their plans by the sight of a firearm on someone who was either nearby or the actual intended victim. And the extreme among us could, and I'll bet do, argue that a visible sidearm is in and of itself brandishing.

    Does the presentation of a gun and the immediate departure of the BG(s) amount to brandishing? I would bet this is not the case as long as the intent of the victim was to fire that gun because the instant situation was perceived as a threat to serious his well being. If you pull that gun and the BG(s) take off, you better not fire it in most states. Your grounds for self defense just went out the window. But your gun did one of the jobs it was suppose to do with the same end result. I saved your butt.
    If I ever draw, I intend to fire. Something would have to happen pretty damned quickly to make me not fire--although I recognize that such is a possibility. IOW, the default after draw is fire. I will never draw merely intending to be ready to shoot or to threaten.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Drawing and either pointing or keeping at the low ready is just another step in the escalation of force continuum. Also it gives that time you may not have. For example of you have a "threat" in front of you and your on the fence about a no shoot or shoot situation it may be too late to even draw and shoot. If you draw before the point of no return (them attacking you) then its one more buffer to keep them away. If they still proceed with threat then 1 firearm is drawn and you can shoot and 2 it can be done before then inflict harm on yourself or others. Finally if firearm is drawn and held "on" them then it allows time to actually acquire sight picture sight alignment to ensure a safe shoot which is paramount. And again its one more step to keep them away and allow time/distance to be created so you can avoid the shoot.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If I ever draw, I intend to fire. Something would have to happen pretty damned quickly to make me not fire--although I recognize that such is a possibility. IOW, the default after draw is fire. I will never draw merely intending to be ready to shoot or to threaten.
    +1 If I have to draw the threat and elements of defensive force have already been met.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Obviously you must be careful with above since drawing and pointing is definitely assault with a deadly weapon in some states. So you better be sure its at least a potential bad guy and that the benefit (your safety) outweighs the risk it might be a harmless guy who freaks out because your pointing a gun at him. Hence the need for the whole EOF continuum. If you've already down the other steps you'd be pretty certain this guy is no good by this time.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Drawing and either pointing or keeping at the low ready is just another step in the escalation of force continuum. Also it gives that time you may not have. For example of you have a "threat" in front of you and your on the fence about a no shoot or shoot situation it may be too late to even draw and shoot. If you draw before the point of no return (them attacking you) then its one more buffer to keep them away. If they still proceed with threat then 1 firearm is drawn and you can shoot and 2 it can be done before then inflict harm on yourself or others. Finally if firearm is drawn and held "on" them then it allows time to actually acquire sight picture sight alignment to ensure a safe shoot which is paramount. And again its one more step to keep them away and allow time/distance to be created so you can avoid the shoot.

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    For LAC drawing and pointing is assault, or brandishing, and very illegal, unless there is already a threat of deadly force, NOT that you think there is.

    Every time I think you have shocked me, you go one step further. This image of you jogging drawing your gun imangining threats like Rocky punching while jogging is hilarious.

    Mostly avoiding the shoot is ONE minding ones own business. Two not getting into a situation in the first place. Three not screwing with people just because your boss told you to.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Might want to read my post after my first one.

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    Really, if one wants to say "I have a gun and will shoot you unless you do (this,that, the other)" that's fine (but it puts one at risk of being shot/killed). I would never do this ... but I could understand someone doing this.

    But to use the tool as a scaring instrument is not wise...

    LACs are not bound by "escalating treatment". If your at a safety risk, that's enough.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    And then you can man up and apologize too. You cab say you didn't see that post up since it hadn't loaded yet and take back what you said. Seeing as how I said what you said before you said it and said it in a better way. You just throw words to bash not to educate or help.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Might want to read my post after my first one.

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    I read your first one, so now you are claiming something different? Remember that Forest Gump I quoted? Nobody makes you do and post the things you do, own them, or start using the brain that God gave you.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Really, if one wants to say "I have a gun and will shoot you unless you do (this,that, the other)" that's fine (but it puts one at risk of being shot/killed). I would never do this ... but I could understand someone doing this.

    But to use the tool as a scaring instrument is not wise...

    LACs are not bound by "escalating treatment". If your at a safety risk, that's enough.
    +1 as long as they don't do it with I, as I will not hesitate to stop a threat. Them being stupid does not play into the equation.

    Stupid people should not carry guns, or badges.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Obviously you must be careful with above since drawing and pointing is definitely assault with a deadly weapon in some states. So you better be sure its at least a potential bad guy and that the benefit (your safety) outweighs the risk it might be a harmless guy who freaks out because your pointing a gun at him. Hence the need for the whole EOF continuum. If you've already down the other steps you'd be pretty certain this guy is no good by this time.

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    This was post number 10. It was posted about 5 minutes prior to your post 11 which bashed me and tried to say the above. Please stop playing dumb and read the thread. Its only 2 pages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    +1 If I have to draw the threat and elements of defensive force have already been met.
    Exactly. This situation already exists or the firearm stays put.

    This "continuum" crap may work for folks who are part of a system that will protect them from their mistakes. We non-LEOs have very little protection in that regard. I don't see a continuum in the law that allows me to defend myself using deadly force. Either the situation does not exist, in which case that firearm must remain in its holster. Or the situation does exist that justifies deadly force, and I ain't half-stepping in a deadly force situation.

    I guess some folks just wanna to play the dropitnoyoudropit game they see played on TV and in the movies. The only correct response to that crap is, "Bang!" The first one to reply in that fashion lives.

    Yeah cops routinely end up carrying at low ready because they have to stick around in situations that haven't gone south, but could go south fast.

    For civilians, the law is set up as: It ain't gone south, so leave it in your pants, or it already has gone south, so do what you gotta do.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    This was post number 10. It was posted about 5 minutes prior to your post 11 which bashed me and tried to say the above. Please stop playing dumb and read the thread. Its only 2 pages.

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    Post 2 does not matter whether I read it or not, YOU posted the first one that was very very wrong. I am not surprised you backpedaled from it, considering the members here do not fall for your BS.

    I don't need to play anything, I leave that for wannabes, and idiots.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 12-10-2013 at 09:50 AM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Exactly. This situation already exists or the firearm stays put.

    This "continuum" crap may work for folks who are part of a system that will protect them from their mistakes. We non-LEOs have very little protection in that regard. I don't see a continuum in the law that allows me to defend myself using deadly force. Either the situation does not exist, in which case that firearm must remain in its holster. Or the situation does exist that justifies deadly force, and I ain't half-stepping in a deadly force situation.

    I guess some folks just wanna to play the dropitnoyoudropit game they see played on TV and in the movies. The only correct response to that crap is, "Bang!" The first one to reply in that fashion lives.

    Yeah cops routinely end up carrying at low ready because they have to stick around in situations that haven't gone south, but could go south fast.

    For civilians, the law is set up as: It ain't gone south, so leave it in your pants, or it already has gone south, so do what you gotta do.
    Eye I would have to respectfully disagree. If I responded to a call that you "brandished " a firearm and held it down or at your leg and you could articulate (by speaking to me uh oh) that you felt threatened and you were trying to avoid a bad incident id thank you for your time tell you great job and leave. Just saying...

    Also some states actually require you to point said firearm at person to be assault. So by that you could draw and hold by your leg and still deescalate/ make space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Eye I would have to respectfully disagree. If I responded to a call that you "brandished " a firearm and held it down or at your leg and you could articulate (by speaking to me uh oh) that you felt threatened and you were trying to avoid a bad incident id thank you for your time tell you great job and leave. Just saying...

    Also some states actually require you to point said firearm at person to be assault. So by that you could draw and hold by your leg and still deescalate/ make space.

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    I don't care what you "would" do. I care what the law allows you to do, cuz some cop or prosecutor is gonna do it. I am not going to put my fate in the hands of what a cop says he "would" do.

    If I don't see an imminent threat to life or limb, that gun stays put. I will not risk the charges that would result in conviction.

    If I do see an imminent threat to life or limb, that gun is coming out, and I intend to fire it to stop that threat.

    You will almost never be questioned for unholstering and not firing. Not so for non-LEOs. So please stop applying your standards for acting to us.

    Moving on.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Eye I would have to respectfully disagree. If I responded to a call that you "brandished " a firearm and held it down or at your leg and you could articulate (by speaking to me uh oh) that you felt threatened and you were trying to avoid a bad incident id thank you for your time tell you great job and leave. Just saying...

    Also some states actually require you to point said firearm at person to be assault. So by that you could draw and hold by your leg and still deescalate/ make space.

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    Your killing me I tell ya, killing me.

    Everytime I think you have hit bottom you dig even deeper.

    It has happened many times that LAC brandishing EVEN IN HIS OWN GARAGE have been shot and killed by police.

    Damn I am still laughing!
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Your killing me I tell ya, killing me.

    Everytime I think you have hit bottom you dig even deeper.

    It has happened many times that LAC brandishing EVEN IN HIS OWN GARAGE have been shot and killed by police.

    Damn I am still laughing!
    Getting shot by police is not remotely what we were talking about. We were talking about a confrontation and a perceived threat and how to react. Period.

    Can you cite any cases where a guy was charged and found guilty for brandishing self defense?


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Your killing me I tell ya, killing me.

    Everytime I think you have hit bottom you dig even deeper.

    It has happened many times that LAC brandishing EVEN IN HIS OWN GARAGE have been shot and killed by police.

    Damn I am still laughing!
    His statement about what he "would" do is reminiscent of Oberlin. One of the antis up there said that they should be able to leave their anti-park-carry ordinance on the books. They'd just promise not to enforce it.

    I don't believe in cop-bashing, but knowing what some cops might do and will get away with doing, I won't trust any cop to do what he says he "would" do. I am responsible for protecting my legal ass. He ain't.

    If I draw, that can be seen as deadly force. If deadly force is not authorized, I could go to jail, regardless of what one cop on a message board says he "would" do.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Getting shot by police is not remotely what we were talking about. We were talking about a confrontation and a perceived threat and how to react. Period.

    Can you cite any cases where a guy was charged and found guilty for brandishing self defense?


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    YOU were the one who brought up holding a gun while police arrived! Remember that Forest Gump quote?

    Brandishing in NC IS GATTOP, there are a few cases. But the law says go about with a weapon terrorising the people. Which is exactly what pulling a gun on another person without a threat being present. And if there is an actual threat, the LAC would be an idiot not to stop it. If a LAC is just drawing because he wants to be prepared should a threat arise, that person would be an idiot.

    Idiots should not carry guns or wear badges.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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