CC-onlyers believe in brandishing as deterrence

independence · Dec 9, 2013

I always find it ironic that almost every person I have ever met who was CC-only and hated OC loved to talk about brandishing as a self defense technique. Was just perusing "CCW: Carrying Concealed Weapons" by Jerry Ahern and read this quote which reminded me of these people:

Carrying a concealed weapon or weapons and being expert in its or their use will avail you absolutely nothing of you are taken by surprise. Indeed, producing a gun when attacked can deter further hostile action. Most weapons drawn are never fired. But, a weapon should never be drawn unless you are prepared to use it because your intelligent assessment of circumstances has left you no other option. Drawing a weapon from concealment is, frequently, offering an attacker one last chance to call things off and leave you alone.

I'm not saying Ahern is anti-OC, because doesn't go as far as to say that in the book, that I remember. But my point is that he believes that the sight of a gun is a deterrence. Reminds me of a lot of people I know who say the same thing but hate on open carry. They claim that you are at a severe disadvantage if you OC but then they tell all kinds of stories of people pulling guns without shooting them as a self defense method.

I was just talking to a hunter/NRA kind of guy the other day about OC. He was telling how foolish it was for me to OC but then proceed to tell me about a self defense story of his own where he reached for his concealed gun (but didn't actually draw) which scared the bad guy away. I'm calling that pseudo-OC...! If letting them know you have a gun is your method of self defense, then why do you hate on OC??!

OC for ME · Dec 9, 2013

Pseudo-OC.....hmm.....me thinks me likey.

Fallschirjmäger · Dec 9, 2013

Looking like lunch tends to attract predators. If you suddenly find it to your advantage to look like not-lunch, then you're probably going to notice what made that happen - the sight of your defensive pistol suddenly being seen.

I'd almost be tempted to wager that having it being seen that you're 'not-lunch' in the first place would have stopped anyone from thinking you were on the menu at all. But, we don't hear about all the things that Don't Happen.

davidmcbeth · Dec 10, 2013

I would only draw AND fire. But that's just my view ...

IMO, you either a) draw and fire or b) draw and die

And CC-ers who believe this, should become OC-ers !

SouthernBoy · Dec 10, 2013

The fact of this matter is that when a victim pulls a gun, nearly always his assailant(s) take off in a different direction. We know this from the well-known statistic of how many times a year a victim uses a firearm in their defense vs how many times that victim actually fires that gun. There are somewhere around 1.5 to 2.5 million incidences per year of of victims using firearms in theirs or someone else's defense. However only about 1500 to 1600 BG's are killed every year by their victims. If we factor in the hit rate of somewhere between 60% to 75% of victims and then factor in the death rate, which runs around maybe 25 to 40%, then we come up with a rough figure of perhaps 4500 to 6000 BG's shot a year by their victims. Now if we assume the 2.5 million figure is closer to reality, we get a percentage of around .2%.

That means that out of 1000 times a firearm is presented by a victim to a BG, only twice is it actually fired. Now these numbers are certainly not precise since such an analysis would be almost impossible to be conducted. And when we factor in those who OC, we will never really know how many BG's were turned away from their plans by the sight of a firearm on someone who was either nearby or the actual intended victim. And the extreme among us could, and I'll bet do, argue that a visible sidearm is in and of itself brandishing.

Does the presentation of a gun and the immediate departure of the BG(s) amount to brandishing? I would bet this is not the case as long as the intent of the victim was to fire that gun because the instant situation was perceived as a threat to serious his well being. If you pull that gun and the BG(s) take off, you better not fire it in most states. Your grounds for self defense just went out the window. But your gun did one of the jobs it was suppose to do with the same end result. I saved your butt.

Griz · Dec 10, 2013

davidmcbeth said:
I would only draw AND fire. But that's just my view ...
IMO, you either a) draw and fire or b) draw and die
And CC-ers who believe this, should become OC-ers !

Our CCW class instructor was all about carrying. He OC or CC depending upon the municipality, as Missouri doesn't have pre-emption.

He was VERY Christian and even though he firmly believed in self-protection, he promoted the idea that while CC, drawing to de-escalate was a viable option. However, it was completely up to the individual personal decision to fire or not depending upon the perceived threat.

I open carry when possible, but if unsure of local laws I will cover it up. I cannot fathom being able to make the decision fast enough to pull my weapon, reassess the threat, and then decide to fire or not.

Either way, you should be calling the police afterwards.

eye95 · Dec 10, 2013

SouthernBoy said:
The fact of this matter is that when a victim pulls a gun, nearly always his assailant(s) take off in a different direction. We know this from the well-known statistic of how many times a year a victim uses a firearm in their defense vs how many times that victim actually fires that gun. There are somewhere around 1.5 to 2.5 million incidences per year of of victims using firearms in theirs or someone else's defense. However only about 1500 to 1600 BG's are killed every year by their victims. If we factor in the hit rate of somewhere between 60% to 75% of victims and then factor in the death rate, which runs around maybe 25 to 40%, then we come up with a rough figure of perhaps 4500 to 6000 BG's shot a year by their victims. Now if we assume the 2.5 million figure is closer to reality, we get a percentage of around .2%.

That means that out of 1000 times a firearm is presented by a victim to a BG, only twice is it actually fired. Now these numbers are certainly not precise since such an analysis would be almost impossible to be conducted. And when we factor in those who OC, we will never really know how many BG's were turned away from their plans by the sight of a firearm on someone who was either nearby or the actual intended victim. And the extreme among us could, and I'll bet do, argue that a visible sidearm is in and of itself brandishing.

Does the presentation of a gun and the immediate departure of the BG(s) amount to brandishing? I would bet this is not the case as long as the intent of the victim was to fire that gun because the instant situation was perceived as a threat to serious his well being. If you pull that gun and the BG(s) take off, you better not fire it in most states. Your grounds for self defense just went out the window. But your gun did one of the jobs it was suppose to do with the same end result. I saved your butt.

If I ever draw, I intend to fire. Something would have to happen pretty damned quickly to make me not fire--although I recognize that such is a possibility. IOW, the default after draw is fire. I will never draw merely intending to be ready to shoot or to threaten.

Primus · Dec 10, 2013

Drawing and either pointing or keeping at the low ready is just another step in the escalation of force continuum. Also it gives that time you may not have. For example of you have a "threat" in front of you and your on the fence about a no shoot or shoot situation it may be too late to even draw and shoot. If you draw before the point of no return (them attacking you) then its one more buffer to keep them away. If they still proceed with threat then 1 firearm is drawn and you can shoot and 2 it can be done before then inflict harm on yourself or others. Finally if firearm is drawn and held "on" them then it allows time to actually acquire sight picture sight alignment to ensure a safe shoot which is paramount. And again its one more step to keep them away and allow time/distance to be created so you can avoid the shoot.

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WalkingWolf · Dec 10, 2013

eye95 said:
If I ever draw, I intend to fire. Something would have to happen pretty damned quickly to make me not fire--although I recognize that such is a possibility. IOW, the default after draw is fire. I will never draw merely intending to be ready to shoot or to threaten.

+1 If I have to draw the threat and elements of defensive force have already been met.

Primus · Dec 10, 2013

Obviously you must be careful with above since drawing and pointing is definitely assault with a deadly weapon in some states. So you better be sure its at least a potential bad guy and that the benefit (your safety) outweighs the risk it might be a harmless guy who freaks out because your pointing a gun at him. Hence the need for the whole EOF continuum. If you've already down the other steps you'd be pretty certain this guy is no good by this time.

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WalkingWolf · Dec 10, 2013

Primus said:
Drawing and either pointing or keeping at the low ready is just another step in the escalation of force continuum. Also it gives that time you may not have. For example of you have a "threat" in front of you and your on the fence about a no shoot or shoot situation it may be too late to even draw and shoot. If you draw before the point of no return (them attacking you) then its one more buffer to keep them away. If they still proceed with threat then 1 firearm is drawn and you can shoot and 2 it can be done before then inflict harm on yourself or others. Finally if firearm is drawn and held "on" them then it allows time to actually acquire sight picture sight alignment to ensure a safe shoot which is paramount. And again its one more step to keep them away and allow time/distance to be created so you can avoid the shoot.

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:lol: For LAC drawing and pointing is assault, or brandishing, and very illegal, unless there is already a threat of deadly force, NOT that you think there is.

Every time I think you have shocked me, you go one step further. This image of you jogging drawing your gun imangining threats like Rocky punching while jogging is hilarious.

Mostly avoiding the shoot is ONE minding ones own business. Two not getting into a situation in the first place. Three not screwing with people just because your boss told you to.

Primus · Dec 10, 2013

Might want to read my post after my first one.

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davidmcbeth · Dec 10, 2013

Really, if one wants to say "I have a gun and will shoot you unless you do (this,that, the other)" that's fine (but it puts one at risk of being shot/killed). I would never do this ... but I could understand someone doing this.

But to use the tool as a scaring instrument is not wise...

LACs are not bound by "escalating treatment". If your at a safety risk, that's enough.

Primus · Dec 10, 2013

And then you can man up and apologize too. You cab say you didn't see that post up since it hadn't loaded yet and take back what you said. Seeing as how I said what you said before you said it and said it in a better way. You just throw words to bash not to educate or help.

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WalkingWolf · Dec 10, 2013

Primus said:
Might want to read my post after my first one.

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I read your first one, so now you are claiming something different? Remember that Forest Gump I quoted? Nobody makes you do and post the things you do, own them, or start using the brain that God gave you.

WalkingWolf · Dec 10, 2013

davidmcbeth said:
Really, if one wants to say "I have a gun and will shoot you unless you do (this,that, the other)" that's fine (but it puts one at risk of being shot/killed). I would never do this ... but I could understand someone doing this.

But to use the tool as a scaring instrument is not wise...

LACs are not bound by "escalating treatment". If your at a safety risk, that's enough.

+1 as long as they don't do it with I, as I will not hesitate to stop a threat. Them being stupid does not play into the equation.

Stupid people should not carry guns, or badges.

Primus · Dec 10, 2013

Primus said:
Obviously you must be careful with above since drawing and pointing is definitely assault with a deadly weapon in some states. So you better be sure its at least a potential bad guy and that the benefit (your safety) outweighs the risk it might be a harmless guy who freaks out because your pointing a gun at him. Hence the need for the whole EOF continuum. If you've already down the other steps you'd be pretty certain this guy is no good by this time.

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This was post number 10. It was posted about 5 minutes prior to your post 11 which bashed me and tried to say the above. Please stop playing dumb and read the thread. Its only 2 pages.

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eye95 · Dec 10, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
+1 If I have to draw the threat and elements of defensive force have already been met.

Exactly. This situation already exists or the firearm stays put.

This "continuum" crap may work for folks who are part of a system that will protect them from their mistakes. We non-LEOs have very little protection in that regard. I don't see a continuum in the law that allows me to defend myself using deadly force. Either the situation does not exist, in which case that firearm must remain in its holster. Or the situation does exist that justifies deadly force, and I ain't half-stepping in a deadly force situation.

I guess some folks just wanna to play the dropitnoyoudropit game they see played on TV and in the movies. The only correct response to that crap is, "Bang!" The first one to reply in that fashion lives.

Yeah cops routinely end up carrying at low ready because they have to stick around in situations that haven't gone south, but could go south fast.

For civilians, the law is set up as: It ain't gone south, so leave it in your pants, or it already has gone south, so do what you gotta do.

WalkingWolf · Dec 10, 2013

Primus said:
This was post number 10. It was posted about 5 minutes prior to your post 11 which bashed me and tried to say the above. Please stop playing dumb and read the thread. Its only 2 pages.

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Post 2 does not matter whether I read it or not, YOU posted the first one that was very very wrong. I am not surprised you backpedaled from it, considering the members here do not fall for your BS.

I don't need to play anything, I leave that for wannabes, and idiots.

Primus · Dec 10, 2013

eye95 said:
Exactly. This situation already exists or the firearm stays put.

This "continuum" crap may work for folks who are part of a system that will protect them from their mistakes. We non-LEOs have very little protection in that regard. I don't see a continuum in the law that allows me to defend myself using deadly force. Either the situation does not exist, in which case that firearm must remain in its holster. Or the situation does exist that justifies deadly force, and I ain't half-stepping in a deadly force situation.

I guess some folks just wanna to play the dropitnoyoudropit game they see played on TV and in the movies. The only correct response to that crap is, "Bang!" The first one to reply in that fashion lives.

Yeah cops routinely end up carrying at low ready because they have to stick around in situations that haven't gone south, but could go south fast.

For civilians, the law is set up as: It ain't gone south, so leave it in your pants, or it already has gone south, so do what you gotta do.

Eye I would have to respectfully disagree. If I responded to a call that you "brandished " a firearm and held it down or at your leg and you could articulate (by speaking to me uh oh) that you felt threatened and you were trying to avoid a bad incident id thank you for your time tell you great job and leave. Just saying...

Also some states actually require you to point said firearm at person to be assault. So by that you could draw and hold by your leg and still deescalate/ make space.

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