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Thread: Now have you had enough of the Nevada Firearms coalition

  1. #1
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    Now have you had enough of the Nevada Firearms coalition

    This is horrible. http://www.8newsnow.com/story/241771...-gun-ownership



    So now they are training gun store counter people to profile us? It is no one business how I store my firearms.

    How does this relate to OC? Because the slippery slope then leads them to ask us about our carry methods and lecture us on that. The times I have said they are as bad as the Brady group are coming true. Sure like to know what stores they are working with so we can avoid them.


    EDIT the store is Guns and Ammo Garage. Mark Cole.
    Last edited by Vegassteve; 12-10-2013 at 09:51 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    So if you don't buy a cleaning kit with the gun, then the indication is that you are planning something bad?

    Excuse me, but the kit I already have at home will do just fine.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Ask if the completion of the sale is predicated on answering the questions. If it is, go out and find a gun seller who holds liberty dear.

    I'll betcha a dollar to a doughnut that if you call out these commie institutions that they will change their tune. They do not have liberals to fall back on as a customer base. If they receive a "proceed" from the CBC then there is no reason to refuse a sale if the customer's money is good.

    Boycott any gun selling business that asks questions beyond "cash, check, debit or credit."

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Ask if the completion of the sale is predicated on answering the questions. If it is, go out and find a gun seller who holds liberty dear.

    I'll betcha a dollar to a doughnut that if you call out these commie institutions that they will change their tune. They do not have liberals to fall back on as a customer base. If they receive a "proceed" from the CBC then there is no reason to refuse a sale if the customer's money is good. Boycott any gun selling business that asks questions beyond "cash, check, debit or credit."

    The point is this guy represents the NVFAC. They are supposed to be our organization that supports our 2nd amendment rights. They are a fraud.

    In a response to the gun control debate that gained national attention after mass shootings and rising numbers in suicides, the Nevada Firearms Coalition teamed up with the state's Office of Suicide Prevention to fix problems in the system.

    Mark Cole of the firearms coalition owns a gun store in the Las Vegas valley. Their plan is to teach employees at these stores to spot customers who might harm themselves or others. Those customers would then not be allowed to buy gun.

    "I think it will help the industry, give the industry a more positive look," Cole said, "By asking how they are locking their guns up, and if they are locking their guns up. And just get the feeling of what they are doing with the firearm."
    Ken
    Last edited by CowboyKen; 12-11-2013 at 12:25 PM.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Question asked, and the anwswer.

    Question.

    Is this story correct? Is the NVFAC on board with this?

    http://www.8newsnow.com/story/241771...-gun-ownership


    Answer


    They combined two stories for sensationalism.

    There is a problem at retail ranges with people renting guns and then committing suicide at the range.

    Our program is to help gun store employees be able to identify potential suicide risks and direct them to get professional help and to reduce the rate of gun suicides. 60% of all suicides in western US are males using firearms and the percentage is higher with veterans. This is an example of an industry using its own tools to help with an issue instead of more government regulations.

    As usual, the news out lets have to try to slant it.


    Don


    My take.

    I must be missing something here. How did they slant it? Don Turner admits they are behind this program. This "big" problem with renting guns at ranges and pulling the trigger on themselves is new to me. I'm not saying it's never happened but I'll bet there have been a time or two when someone has taken a car for a test drive and slammed it into a tree too.

    I have defended the need to support the NVFAC in the past but at that time the issue was that of accomplishments and efforts. Now it is the issue of who's side are they on? I give up. I along with my wife and son will not renew. My money gets a bigger bang for the buck elsewhere.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Now Don Turner thinks any gun store commando can "be able to identify potential suicide risks."

    It takes years of university level education to qualify as a psychologist. IMO Mr. turner is a fool, and dangerous to himself and others.

    Ken
    Last edited by CowboyKen; 12-11-2013 at 01:18 PM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    No bashing of other gun groups.

    Bash only those gun sellers who practice this crap. When one store is branded then others may reconsider. Just cuz the dude represents the gun group does not mean, as was asked in a question, that the group is going along with the dude.

    Vote with your wallet, and pass the word, as required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    No bashing of other gun groups.

    Bash only those gun sellers who practice this crap. When one store is branded then others may reconsider. Just cuz the dude represents the gun group does not mean, as was asked in a question, that the group is going along with the dude.

    Vote with your wallet, and pass the word, as required.
    Watch the video. It is the gun group doing this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post

    As usual, the news out lets have to try to slant it.[/I]

    Don



    TBG


    What a heaping pile he shoveled at you. There was no twisting. His spokesman on video said this. And this was not about suicides at the range. This was about buying. I cant wait for the NVFAC to fold.

  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyKen View Post
    Now Don Turner thinks any gun store commando employee can "be able to identify potential suicide risks."

    It takes years of university level education to qualify as a psychologist. IMO Mr. turner is a fool, and dangerous to himself and others not so qualified.

    Ken
    Made some changes - please incorporate these in the future.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    No bashing of other gun groups.

    Bash only those gun sellers who practice this crap...
    This seller is ALSO an official representative of our state NRA-affiliate.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Seems to me the focus is in trying to identify someone who is attempting to purchase a firearm for the purpose of harming themself - AKA suicide/attempted suicide. Look for certain tell-tale signs or statements.

    Sort of like profiling the person who comes into the LGS asking for the best gun to use to kill the thugs hanging around on the corner of the block, or that will do the most physical damage to thier spouse's head.

    Strangly, LGSs are not required to sell to anybody - not even cops or LEAS presenting purchase orders. The fact that "the customer looked hinky" is sufficient reason to refuse the sale.

    The presentation of the information is somewhat sensational - but I doubt that the sources consulted or referenced had any control (let alone input) on that.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Seems to me the focus is in trying to identify someone who is attempting to purchase a firearm for the purpose of harming themself - AKA suicide/attempted suicide. Look for certain tell-tale signs or statements.

    Sort of like profiling the person who comes into the LGS asking for the best gun to use to kill the thugs hanging around on the corner of the block, or that will do the most physical damage to thier spouse's head.

    Strangly, LGSs are not required to sell to anybody - not even cops or LEAS presenting purchase orders. The fact that "the customer looked hinky" is sufficient reason to refuse the sale.

    The presentation of the information is somewhat sensational - but I doubt that the sources consulted or referenced had any control (let alone input) on that.

    stay safe.
    I for one would really appreciate it if folks who are from other States would stop making excuses for the failures of the Nevada Firearms Coalition.

    In their two years of existence they have accomplished exactly ZERO of their stated goals. They have not even made a small effort at most of them.

    All that they have done is self promotion (badly at that) of some of the officers. They have been especially ineffective in their legislative activism attempts.

    They have failed to accomplish membership and fundraising goals and, it seems, they have wasted the money that they have raised.

    This is just one more episode in the joke-fest that is the NVFAC.

    Of course, that is just my opinion (some others here in Nevada seem to agree with me).

    Ken

  14. #14
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    forgive the out of state intrusion but...

    unfortunately, even mental health professionals who have been appropriately trained in suicide ideation assessment and using validated standard assessment protocols, find they do not always work across the board. there are 'assessment' questions which the subject can respond to but the individual's behaviour and affect is paramount for a mental health professional to define the severity, intensity, lethality, of any persons thoughts and behaviour which could lead the person to ultimately do self-harm to themselves or others.

    if this is not the first time presenting ideation, individuals know the 'proper' response to assessment questions and answer with the 'appropriate' answer, thus misdirecting someone from a appropriate diagnosis.

    Finally, the mental health profession has one other ace in their back pocket...they can contact the proper authorities and immediately put someone on a three day hold.

    sorry but 'reading' someone's ideation is not done by a lay person who is standing over the gun counter 'chatting' a can set of questions.

    ipser
    Last edited by solus; 12-11-2013 at 05:29 PM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyKen View Post
    I for one would really appreciate it if folks who are from other States would stop making excuses for the failures of the Nevada Firearms Coalition.

    In their two years of existence they have accomplished exactly ZERO of their stated goals. They have not even made a small effort at most of them.

    All that they have done is self promotion (badly at that) of some of the officers. They have been especially ineffective in their legislative activism attempts.

    They have failed to accomplish membership and fundraising goals and, it seems, they have wasted the money that they have raised.

    This is just one more episode in the joke-fest that is the NVFAC.

    Of course, that is just my opinion (some others here in Nevada seem to agree with me).

    Ken
    OCDO does not limit posting to a state sub-forum only to the current residents thereof. We share and learn from each other.

    However, the Forum Rules do not allow attacking groups:


    • (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    OCDO does not limit posting to a state sub-forum only to the current residents thereof. We share and learn from each other.

    However, the Forum Rules do not allow attacking groups:


    • (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.
    Then I guess you better lock this thread. Because the one group that claims to represent us is not doing the job. And it is very OC related. Because it is a simple slippery slope to then asking and wanting to deny us a sale based on how we carry.

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    OCDO does not limit posting to a state sub-forum only to the current residents thereof. We share and learn from each other.

    However, the Forum Rules do not allow attacking groups:


    • (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    Then I guess you better lock this thread. Because the one group that claims to represent us is not doing the job. And it is very OC related. Because it is a simple slippery slope to then asking and wanting to deny us a sale based on how we carry.
    Locking a thread for rule violations is a relatively easy task. More difficult is learning how to deal with others with whom you may disagree on a public forum with finesse and a positive style.

    Where an organization doesn't meet your standards, don't join, don't support them, maybe (if true) even demonstrate how they hurt the cause of OC; nevertheless there will be no lynchings here.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-11-2013 at 06:49 PM.
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Where an organization doesn't meet your standards, don't join, don't support them, maybe (if true) even demonstrate how they hurt the cause of OC; nevertheless there will be no lynchings here.
    Here ya go. They hurt our cause because we have demonstrated in the past how they continually hold events where we cant carry. They have supported events that are anti carry. They have refused to step up to any of our causes.

    And this latest is icing on the cake. We are in Nevada we know better than any if a group is helping our cause or not. And they are not.

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    I received a email from Don at the NVFAC. It appears there is an unnamed group holding a rally, now it has changed to private property, Not good news for a counter rally IMO. It is my experience that the NVFAC is content with Cheer leading, but will not draw a line in the sand.


    We were asked by a counter rally organizer to send you details of a “Moms Demand Action” anti-gun rally that was being held in Las Vegas on December 14 2013.



    The rally site has been changed and the counter rally organizer has asked that we send out this correction ASAP.



    Here’s where their web site says it is:



    WHO: Moms Demand Action Nevada
    WHEN: December 14, 2013 5:00 PM
    WHERE: Unity Baptist Church
    545 Marion Drive
    Las Vegas, NV 89110
    I am extremely concerned, while I see our community as the answer, (not more laws) This is a great way to lead to an advisory committee (Govs. board on gun safety?) This board will no doubt work closely with the NSCA, while serving as a retirement supplement for bureaucrats, and cops who have yet to have enough of controlling people. This board will be heard above our voices in the Legislature. If you want to know why I think this way, it is because Nevada has an advisory board for motorcycle safety. Motorcycles pay an extra 6 dollars a year for the privilege of being nanny stated to death. They make a recommendation, and the Legislature stamps it... I do not want to see this happen with firearms. we need to stop absorbing guilt for others crimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    [*](12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS:
    NVFAC isn't a gun rights organization. It is a social group, in which some of the members mention gun rights once in a while. NVFAC has actively opposed open carry, and continues to do so.

  21. #21
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    If what NVFAC states is the reason behind their effort, aren't they using the same methodology as the anti gun crowd? Go after the outward symptoms rather than the root cause? If the problem is suicide brought on by PTSD, depression, or any other mental disorder, temporarily relieving them of their method of choice will not ultimately stop them. From what I have read on the subject in the past many people who are depressed take on a very cheery demeanor when they have finally made the decision to kill themselves. Unless it was someone you were familiar with on an ongoing basis so you would know of their change in mood, how could you make that determination?

    I'm sorry when this sort of thing happens but how can tramping on my rights to buy a new carry firearm change anything? This is not at all well thought out and reminds me of the reactionary methods of the anti firearms crowd.
    Indeed it is telling them that they have been right all along that the answer is to keep firearms out of otherwise law abiding citizens hands. It does not matter who takes on the moral high ground in the decision making process the results are the same.

    TBG
    Last edited by The Big Guy; 12-11-2013 at 11:34 PM.
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    Regular Member De5115's Avatar
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    If NVFAC wants to ask questions prior to selling a firearm is fine with me. If you don't want to answer their questions then you don't have to.

    I rather have store owners use their better judgment on who they sell to than have who they sell to legislated.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    NVFAC isn't a gun rights organization. It is a social group, in which some of the members mention gun rights once in a while. NVFAC has actively opposed open carry, and continues to do so.
    Thank you for the clarification.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by De5115 View Post
    If NVFAC wants to ask questions prior to selling a firearm is fine with me. If you don't want to answer their questions then you don't have to.

    I rather have store owners use their better judgment on who they sell to than have who they sell to legislated.


    True no one has to answer. Yet for a group that claims to support your rights, this is not the way to do it. Also as pointed out already, gun store counter jockeys are some of the last people you would want making a psych evaluation. After four hours of so called training no less. Along with the huge invasion of privacy these questions pose.

    Along with the possibility that groups like the Bradys see this and start pushing it on the gov to implement it. I can hear it now. The gun stores and gun rights groups started it so it must be a good enough idea to make into a law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    forgive the out of state intrusion but...

    unfortunately, even mental health professionals who have been appropriately trained in suicide ideation assessment and using validated standard assessment protocols, find they do not always work across the board. there are 'assessment' questions which the subject can respond to but the individual's behaviour and affect is paramount for a mental health professional to define the severity, intensity, lethality, of any persons thoughts and behaviour which could lead the person to ultimately do self-harm to themselves or others.

    if this is not the first time presenting ideation, individuals know the 'proper' response to assessment questions and answer with the 'appropriate' answer, thus misdirecting someone from a appropriate diagnosis.

    Finally, the mental health profession has one other ace in their back pocket...they can contact the proper authorities and immediately put someone on a three day hold.

    sorry but 'reading' someone's ideation is not done by a lay person who is standing over the gun counter 'chatting' a can set of questions.

    ipser
    there are going to be three groups of people

    1) those who are suicidal or near to it and who will try their best to give the 'proper' response/answer and misderect. Their suicidal state of mind will be hard to discover and yes... they will usually pass screening

    2) those who are suicidal but are open to respond in the affirmative if asked.

    (2) do exist. Assuming a (2) who goes to the gun store to buy a gun have taken a substantial step. Not all who buy a gun with the intent to kill themselves, will of course and some who buy a gun with no intent to do so, may later develop the desire to kill theirself.

    Cops etc. deal with group 2 all the time. I've seen tons of examples where people who are suicidal, will admit it. It's happened to me many times, and of course I am duty bound to invol them and I have done so scores of times... people in group (2) being a decent size chunk of the group of people i've invol'd. You think that people (you imply ALL people who are suicidal) who are suicidal and have previously presented ideation will always try to avoid the person detecting them to be suicidal.

    anybody who has ever dealt with suicidal/parasuicidal persons knows that group 2 exists. You make it sound like discovering these people requires great skill and great trickery to see behind their automatically present intent to deceive you about their intent.

    3) group 3 are those who aren't suicidal.

    Again, rubbish. Many people are mandatory reporters in our society and the mental health system has made suicide less likely by using intervention and with the help of the responders in the field to make the initial detection.

    ironically, i happen to be a cop who went to grad school for psychology. There is nothing I learned in grad school regarding how to discover suicidal intent during interaction with a patient, that the average salty first responder hasn't learned over time and through training. It's not rocket science at all.

    ime, most of the suicide cases I have seen, there was "fair warning" given before they finaly pulled the trigger. It's a rarity for them not to reach out at all.

    and of course for every suicidal person who commits suicide w.o giving some sort of warning and who would not reveal their state of mind to anybody querying them (the group that questioning will not reveal ) , there are several more who gave warning and got intervention

    Nothing in psychology works across the board. People are complex, differ in all sorts of ways, etc. Psychology is a really "soft science". calling it a science at all is a stretch and the longer I stayed in grad school for psychology as well as spent time on the street dealing with tons of EDP's, the more I became convinced of the field's low rate of succesful prediction for example etc.

    NOTE: I am not saying that I support the practice of gun sellers making these queries. I am simply pointing out that one of the effective (SOMETIMES) methods in determining whether a person is suicidal is to simply ask... simple questions... that one does not need to be a psychologist or MHP to employ with DECENT success.

    People are so diverse, complex, unpredictable etc. on an individual basis (aggregate behavior ofen form relatively predictable trends) that there is no set of questions and no amount of training that would make a person anywhere near 100% effective in identifying the suicidal person before its too late.

    of course.

    But that;s not the same thing as saying no layperson can do this with some people/some of the time.

    heck, i ve had plenty of people be 100% forthright and open to questioning, and many others have required a bit more questioning and observing.

    The REASON many suicidal persons will admit it even at the point where they have gone as far towards completion of the act, as entering a gun store and trying to purchase a firearm is that there is often psychological pressure within to divulge, and it feels good to make these admissions. Many others go all the way to committing suicide hoping all the time that there will be somebody who will notice their behavior/state of mind and intervene. How do we know this? from interviews with people who made bona fide suicide attempts (i am not talking the typical slice wrist with butter knife case... the weakass quasi suicidal acts are as a matter of statistics going to be females most of the time fwiw. females have a much higher rate of Attempting suicide than men. I know this from training and grad school study but havge also seen it clearly in the suicide and attempt suicide calls I have responded to.

    Just like many people who commit a crime will confess if asked "did you do it".Many think people only confess when they are skillfully tricked, or after long and fatiguing questioning by LEO's, but the simple truth is, just like with suicidals, there is psychological pressure to divulge/confess. And again, based on training , experience, and questioning criminals who confessed to me, I've learned that for most the pressure was there and very uncomfortable AND divulging./confessing brought relief. Like q junkie getting his next fix after starting to go through withdrawals , and feeling the wave of endorphins crashing in their brain and bringing them relief, many suicidals will get a similar pressure reducing good feeling upon divulging, Again, not my opinion from a vacuum but from study , trainign an extensive experience. Why would a guilty person confess to a crime, especially knowing their confession might be the only thing needed to get them incarcerated? Because of rather counterintuitive psychology. The same holds true for suicidals.

    And just like many interrogators wil fail to get a confession froma guilty man, manyothers whether MHP's or laypeople will fail to get the person to divulge his suicidal state of mind

    Like i said, im not arguing to support this practice im just saying the person i am responding to is making a fallacious arguments, based on an untrue understandin of the internal and external working so to speak of the suicidal person's brain

    i've had the pleasure of dealing with so so so many edp's in all sorts of crises to include those that result in suicidal ideation to be confident in these assertions... many of which were later corroborated that much more by the studies etc. referenced by my professors.

    Fwiw, Jails ask screening questions of arrestees they receive to include questions asking about the person being suicidal or not because it'[s their duty to protect that person AND because time has shown that ceteris paribus, a smaller %AGE OF inmates will commit suicide in the jail that does this screening , then in jails that don't
    Last edited by PALO; 12-12-2013 at 06:41 AM.

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