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The need of suspicion to run for warrants

WalkingWolf

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When judges are held to account for the accuracy of the warrant then we may see more due diligence. Hand written warrants must never be submitted and if they are the judge needs to reject them out of hand. A e-copy must be retained. The only hand writing on the warrant should be the signature of the person requesting the warrant, and the judges signature. Oh, verbal go-aheads should never be issued with paperwork to follow latter.

You see that above is more relevant than the need to run a warrant. I would be more PO'd over a malicious and unjust warrant than checking for warrants. I suspect the OP's problem has more to do with the issuance of the warrant in the first place. The person who first brought this subject up, his complaint was hearing his name on a scanner.
 

PALO

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Whether one "has" a warrant or not is clearly not a privacy issue. A warrant is not an attribute of a person, despite the fact we say a person "has" a warrant. I think the terminology confuses the issue that way, because it lumps having a warrant in with other things a person "has" or "has on their person" etc. that clearly are a privacy interest and w.o certain cause, compelling reason, etc. should not be the kind of thing a law enforcement officer or anybody else for that matter should just be able to find out about.

Example: a person has a medical condition. Privacy interest. There must be certain factors present for a law enforcement officer to inquire about same, or for that matter for anybody else to.

When I am going to book somebody at the jail, prior to transport for instance, I will ask about medical conditions, for the person's safety WHILE IN MY CUSTODY since that is my responsibility. In that situation, it's reasonable for me to ask does the person have something like diabetes, where depending on when they last shot up/ate etc. they could pass out etc. during the transport, or do they have a joint injury that would make wearing handcuffs problematic, etc. We certainly don't ask about HIV etc. but only conditions that would be dangerous to fellow inmates (highly communicable, like Hep B), or dangerous to themselves durimg transport or incarceration (hidden absess for instance. Not at all uncommon amongst IV drug users and often a serious and even potentially fatal condition. If they have an absess, they go straight to the hospital, not the jail, and often we will forego booking and just leave them at the hospital to be treated, etc. suspects may be hesitant to admit to being an opioid addict for instance (especially in a case where I found drugs on their person since they perceive it could incriminate them - help support that they would be a person who would have drug X on their person, or under their car seat or whatever. I will encourage suspects to admit same to the jail nurse, so that they can receive treatment during their incarceration/withdrawal that will at least make the withdrawal a little more tolerable (antihistamines, possibly something like clonidine or suboxone as well, etc.). In the case of withdrawal from alcohol, as opposed to opioids, that can be a potentially fatal condition, as well and it is logical and reasonable for us to ask, FOR THEIR safety, and because it's out responsibility, etc. And fwiw, I will never document a medical condition, that I learn about through such screening, on a case report, because it was asked as a matter of privacy and for their safety and not for public knowledge. nothing I, or a nurse or a booking officer asks about medical conditions for the purposes of their safety/others safety during incarceraton will be used against them, as it should be. But at least we have valid, articulable reasons in that case to probe into a very private area.

other examples of things a person "has", that are privacy interest - what does he have in his possesion/pockets/concealed under his clothes, etc. It's inappropriate for me to inquire into same without cause, iow randomly just because they are walking down the street, like I could randomly inquire about their warrants given if I knew their name/dob and saw them walking down the street.

other examples of things a person "has" - they may have a political belief, religious belief/membership, etc. that is again none of my damn business, except in certain rare circs, but certainy not randomly when I see them walk down the street, etc.

There are all sorts of things like this, whether it's an object in a pocket, a condition, etc. that a person HAS that certainly should not be a target of random police (or anybody else's) inquiry just because you are walking down the street, or filming the cops, or standing on the street corner, or driving by, etc.

"having" a warrant is distinguishable from these, and is not a privacy interest, CERTAINLY not a privacy interest FROM law enforcement, who is tasked with serving warrants . A warrant is not a thing that one chooses to "possess" and keep private, like the contents of one's pockets, it;'s not a sacred private belief, it's not a medical condition, etc.

those things a person "has" of course should be protected from random police inquiry. No libertarian or anybody who has ANY respect for privacy could argue otherwise.

"having a warrant" is not like these things. What "having" a warrant means is that a judge, etc. has reviewed a complaint against a person made under oath etc. and found that there is probable cause to arrest, arrest being a way to formally advise a person of charges, get him an attorney if he wants one, and start the wheels of justice rolling so that justice/redress can be obtained for a victim/society after a criminal act. or it means that the person skipped out on sentencing or incarceration after conviction, or in some cases skipped out on responding to a summons etc. etc.

these are not private things a person "has" in the respect of those mentioned above.

If one describes it then not as a Person having a warrant, but as a Person against whom a warrant has been issued by a Judge having jurisdiction, it is more clear that there need be no indicia of suspicion to check on this.

A warrant is issued because a person CHOSE to ignore lawful process/obligation (like showing up at a court date, or going to an anger management class as a result of a conviction for assault) or because a person was found by an impartial third party (a judge) to have sufficient evidence brought against them such that it is probable that they committed the relevant crime. Among other things, considering it a privacy a interest does a disservice to society and to the victim of the crime. A warrant is not a thing like what a person places in their pocket or other private place, or like any of the above mentioned things that trigger privacy.

It's an official document, official process issued against a person by a member of the criminal justice system, and NEEDING prompt attention for the sake of justice.

NOT making this info OPEN knowledge to law enforcement would be absurd. It would be beyond absurd to make it a privacy interest of person X, that a govt. authority has found probable cause that they committed a crime and wants them brought before a court, to in any way conceal that info from a person (a leo) who is TASKED with executing that warrant.

It would be insane to issue the warrant and ask law enforcement to execute it (and again, warrants have that language "to any peace officer ... etc.) but then require them to have some indicia of suspicion about a person before inquiring into whether such an instrument has been created (the warrant) regarding that person.

It would be even more absurd to believe that whether or not an OBJECT, a car, has been reported stolen, isn't something an officer could randomly inquire into by running a license plate for warrants. What possible privacy interest does an OBJECT (whether or not occupied) have to impede law enforcement from knowledge that some person who lawfully owns it has been unlawfully deprived of it by a criminal, and to that would impede law enforcement in returning the stolen property to its lawful owner?

So, sorry, but this idea that cops should need an indicia of suspicion in these cases is insane. Warrants are not like the other things mentioned, for reasons explained above. I don't care if you are filming the police (constitutionally protected activity that I have engaged in), walking down the sidewalk, driving on by, or not even within eyesight of a LEO. *if* they already know your name, there is no invasion of your privacy in any way, shape or form, for the LEO to check if any judge has found that justice requires you be brought before a court either because there is probable cause you victimized somebody or there is probable cause you chose to ignore an order of a competent court (like an order to appear, etc.)
 

Fuller Malarkey

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PALO

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OC for ME

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Whether one "has" a warrant or not is clearly not a privacy issue. A warrant is not an attribute of a person, despite the fact we say a person "has" a warrant. I think the terminology confuses the issue that way, because it lumps having a warrant in with other things a person "has" or "has on their person" etc. that clearly are a privacy interest and w.o certain cause, compelling reason, etc. should not be the kind of thing a law enforcement officer or anybody else for that matter should just be able to find out about.

Example: a person has a medical condition. Privacy interest. There must be certain factors present for a law enforcement officer to inquire about same, or for that matter for anybody else to.

<snip>
Arrest warrants are predicated on the validity of the document and thus the judge takes the word of the cops who request his signature. Because we all know that cops don't serve bogus arrest warrants, just ask them. By definition arrest warrants are 100% correct else cops would not serve them. Because if cops served bogus arrest warrants they would be held to account, criminally, for serving a bogus arrest warrant that was not warranted (could not help it.....sorry:cool:). So, cops are never held to account for serving a bogus arrest warrant, are they?

The vast majority of arrest warrants are well deserved and well served by reasonable and responsible cops.

Cops can troll LPs in the hopes that they get lucky. If they see one, they stop it, and roust the citizen behind the wheel. Whether or not the citizen is the perp. Due process only counts after the ride it seems.
 

Primus

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Arrest warrants are predicated on the validity of the document and thus the judge takes the word of the cops who request his signature. Because we all know that cops don't serve bogus arrest warrants, just ask them. By definition arrest warrants are 100% correct else cops would not serve them. Because if cops served bogus arrest warrants they would be held to account, criminally, for serving a bogus arrest warrant that was not warranted (could not help it.....sorry:cool:). So, cops are never held to account for serving a bogus arrest warrant, are they?

The vast majority of arrest warrants are well deserved and well served by reasonable and responsible cops.

Cops can troll LPs in the hopes that they get lucky. If they see one, they stop it, and roust the citizen behind the wheel. Whether or not the citizen is the perp. Due process only counts after the ride it seems.

OC I agree with you, but your talking a very specific type of warrant. Usually search warrants are written by the police and submitted to the Judge, Those are the ones you always see on TV/internet about wrong addresses, wrong guy, etc. etc. While that CAN still be the case with arrest warrants, more often then not the warrants are from not appearing/paying fines, etc. These are actions that police have nothing to do with. If the citizen doesnt show up for court, that's on him. Also, the cases where an officer may write and arrest (body) warrant, it's still on the officer as to why they are requesting said warrant and not just a summons to court. Usually when I am requesting for a Body Warrant, is because the dude already has 5 outstanding warrants, so clearly he's not coming into court on whatever I am charging him with. Other times, more commonly, its the severity of crime. You don't issue a summons for someone who you believe committed a murder and hope they come into court a few weeks later.

Again, I agree with your thought process that the broader issue of writing, approving, etc. warrants can have issues. But, it's clear by the OPs title of the thread, he is talking about just "running" for warrants. The mere check of a warrant. Not how, who, when, why it was applied for. That's where I disagree as others have,
 

skidmark

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I think random warrant less checks on individuals and license plates are unconstitutional and violates the 4th a the right to feel secure in your person.

The claim is made that belief is absurd and anti libertarian.

In a libertarian society there wouldn't be unconstitutional proactive policing.

If a cop has a warrant he already has the name and pertinent information for whom he needs to get, if there happens to be a detention based on RS or PC and the name comes up in a check is a different beast then just randomly running people. Welcome to Big Brother Police state USA.

1st para - agree
2nd para - huh?
3rd para - not always the case. The use of John Doe warrants are many - including prserving any statute of limitations.

What, if any, reason does your hypothetical cop have to cause him to want to check to see if there are any outstanding warrants? That he committed a criminal violation, suggesting that he may have committed other criminal violations also? That the cop believes the person has similarities with a wanted person and wants to confirm/deny the suspicion. That the cop is a JBT and/or a jackwagon?

I'm not defending unrestrained fishing expeditions, just noting that there are some useful reasons.

stay safe.
 

WalkingWolf

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I can't help getting over the image of some women dressed like a street walker screaming at some poor sucker because he is looking at her.
 

OC for ME

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The OP specifically mentions individuals and LPs, I'll get to LPs, again, in a moment. To check a citizen (individual) for warrants a detention must occur regardless of the citizen's mode of transport, even if the transport is his feet. The check for warrants is conducted after the detention and as such the arrest, based on the warrant, could be tossed, and has been tossed in the past, if the detention was bogus. If the detention results in no warrants then the cop has opened himself up to a civil action if he did not have all of his ducks in a row to guard against a civil action. Thus the cry from the cheap seats about RAS being way too low a bar for a thug cop to slither over. Even good cops have had their arrests, that should have stood, tossed cuz they jacked up the detention, or more correctly could not convince a judge, or even worse, a jury, that the stop was righteous.

Cops can troll for BG based on arrest warrants issued to a individual, and then that individual is tied to a LP if a LP is issued to that individual. All the cop has got to do is sit there, on the side of the road, eating a doughnut and drinking coffee, and wait for a perp to drive by. Granted, this is a very inefficient way to serve arrest warrants, but, the duty is easy except on the back-side and the waist of said cop.

Apples and golf balls as far as I am concerned.
 

77zach

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What I would like to know is how many warrants written by the police do judges reject in the USSA. I'd say very few. The Soviet like FISA court, for example, rejected almost no requests by federal heroes: http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/06/fisa-court-nsa-spying-opinion-reject-request

Naturally, the heroes in blue will say denials are low because they always have the evidence. Knowing how heroes lie about dogs "alerting" to the presence of "illegal" drugs, I think their claims are BS. I have personally been a victim of lying heroes in SC who said their dog "alerted" to my car after I denied them permission to search my car. I said they could search my car if they let me search their Tahoe, but they didn't agree. I guess they had something to hide.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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I agree eye. Need a cite to believe that statement. Otherwise its untrue and putting out bad info....

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I really don't think one has to detain if they have the needed information about said subject to check for a warrant.

Many times in 30 plus years I have ran and check for warrants on people I did not have in physical custody.

Example there goes John Doe I think I heard the clerk of court saying the issued a warrant for him. hey dispatch would you lookup John doe approximate DOB of ------ and check for warrants. neg on warrants thanks. Positive hit warrant out of said county put me out with john doe.

Nope don't need to detain him to check.

Now if you do not have the needed info one would have to get it some how a detention might be that way.
 
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WalkingWolf

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I heard the local cops also have run google searches on the OP... :lol:

Apologies to SVG, I got this thread confused with CaP's thread.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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The problem is not in the course of duties. The problem is when it is done as a form of harassment, but then there are legal procedures to stop it.

Most people would not like it if there name is repeatedly being used for warrant search on the radio. It could be incriminating if your boss has a scanner and keeps hearing the employees name repeatedly. This would be a abuse, and the courts should step in.

But most police officers do not know who has a scanner and who does not and who gets their panties in a wad if their name is heard on it. This is where keep your big mouth shut comes in, don't advertise that you(general you) have a scanner and listen to police calls. And then broadcast it on the internet or other venues that it bothers you. Bullies look for insecurities to use them to their benefit, and sometimes bullies can be police, and most certainly the press is often a bully.

The old saying is "what goes around comes around".

I understand and often agree about police abuses, but most of us do not have problems with the police, while some of us have consistent problems with them. There are reasons for that, sometimes criminal, sometimes personal, and sometimes because the supposed victim stalks police. There comes a time when no matter what the law is, to use good common sense.

You see that above is more relevant than the need to run a warrant. I would be more PO'd over a malicious and unjust warrant than checking for warrants. I suspect the OP's problem has more to do with the issuance of the warrant in the first place. The person who first brought this subject up, his complaint was hearing his name on a scanner.

I reply to you WW because it seems the other two LEO's didn't even read my post.

I do have a problem with how warrants are issued nowdays, and the fact of the matter is for much time before the rise of proactive policing warrants were a necessity for arrests. I don't even have a problem with a cop using the phone book or google to locate the person he has a warrant for, that isn't the issue I was addressing though. Randomly running names or plates in casting out a wide fishing net and hoping to catch something seems antithetical to the people in remaining secure in their person.

The founders were law breakers, I don't think they would have agreed with a plain view doctrine especially when the object of that doctrine that insures no anonymity is mandated by the state. A person seemingly has non choice in having a license plate.

The others also don't understand that proactive as I use it and in its true meaning is trying to stop something before it happens, this is not good in my opinion and another tool of big brother to make sure we all behave.

1st para - agree
2nd para - huh?
3rd para - not always the case. The use of John Doe warrants are many - including prserving any statute of limitations.

What, if any, reason does your hypothetical cop have to cause him to want to check to see if there are any outstanding warrants? That he committed a criminal violation, suggesting that he may have committed other criminal violations also? That the cop believes the person has similarities with a wanted person and wants to confirm/deny the suspicion. That the cop is a JBT and/or a jackwagon?

I'm not defending unrestrained fishing expeditions, just noting that there are some useful reasons.

stay safe.

Good questions. This theme got me thinking it would be interested for discussion because of a wall of text by another poster claiming my position was absurd and anti libertarian. The more he talks though the more he shows how little he knows about the libertarian philosophies and the basic writings of many of its leading philosophers.

Even in a libertarian society you are right that warrants could exist, I would say this would mostly be the duties of the civilians and or maybe a system like at the founding of Sheriffs and constables. Proactive policing to me is contrary to common law and natural law.

As to your last sentences that is getting to my points, if a cop has a reason I have no problem with it, it is the support of random checks. I find that troubling the kings men used to do similar things.

The OP specifically mentions individuals and LPs, I'll get to LPs, again, in a moment. To check a citizen (individual) for warrants a detention must occur regardless of the citizen's mode of transport, even if the transport is his feet. The check for warrants is conducted after the detention and as such the arrest, based on the warrant, could be tossed, and has been tossed in the past, if the detention was bogus. If the detention results in no warrants then the cop has opened himself up to a civil action if he did not have all of his ducks in a row to guard against a civil action. Thus the cry from the cheap seats about RAS being way too low a bar for a thug cop to slither over. Even good cops have had their arrests, that should have stood, tossed cuz they jacked up the detention, or more correctly could not convince a judge, or even worse, a jury, that the stop was righteous.

Cops can troll for BG based on arrest warrants issued to a individual, and then that individual is tied to a LP if a LP is issued to that individual. All the cop has got to do is sit there, on the side of the road, eating a doughnut and drinking coffee, and wait for a perp to drive by. Granted, this is a very inefficient way to serve arrest warrants, but, the duty is easy except on the back-side and the waist of said cop.

Apples and golf balls as far as I am concerned.
+1 The cops are trying to defend random checks....I don't really see how a check can ever be "random". If a cop decides stand behind someone at the grocery store and hears a name and without no suspicion or PC decides to go to the car and run the name through the system, I would find that an atrocious misuse of what is supposed to be a limited power.
 
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countryclubjoe

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Another issue is that the warrant never states the reason for its existence, IE a citizen may have a warrant in his name for not appearing to court for a debt dispute,( default judgement) this is a civil matter. Why should tax payers have to fund the tab for police with regard to time, effort etc in policing a civil matter? Police have no idea if the warrant is for a serious criminal matter or a simple civil dispute... Hence the warrants should be more specific and let police do some real police work.

My .02

Best regards.

CCJ
 

sudden valley gunner

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Another issue is that the warrant never states the reason for its existence, IE a citizen may have a warrant in his name for not appearing to court for a debt dispute,( default judgement) this is a civil matter. Why should tax payers have to fund the tab for police with regard to time, effort etc in policing a civil matter? Police have no idea if the warrant is for a serious criminal matter or a simple civil dispute... Hence the warrants should be more specific and let police do some real police work.

My .02

Best regards.

CCJ

At one time almost all warrants were "civil" in nature. I really don't see a problem in that, because at one time we didn't have unconstitutional "proactive" policing. There were no full time prosecutors this was done "civilly".

I think I need to go read Roger Roots Are Cops Constitutional, again.
 

Citizen

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At one time almost all warrants were "civil" in nature. I really don't see a problem in that, because at one time we didn't have unconstitutional "proactive" policing. There were no full time prosecutors this was done "civilly".

I think I need to go read Roger Roots Are Cops Constitutional, again.

Great paper, fellas. If you haven't read it, do take some time. Its available on-line.
 

countryclubjoe

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At one time almost all warrants were "civil" in nature. I really don't see a problem in that, because at one time we didn't have unconstitutional "proactive" policing. There were no full time prosecutors this was done "civilly".

I think I need to go read Roger Roots Are Cops Constitutional, again.

Indeed a great read, I will dust off my copy during some down time this Holiday season..

With the invention of Government agency's over the years , IE, IRS, SSA, DEA, DMV etc the need for enforcement of each agency's rules, and statutes and bogus unconstitutional laws continue to grow and our liberties shrink. We now have Federal cops, state cops, local cops etc.

If a person has an outstanding parking ticket and fails to pay the fine and then fails to appear in some kangaroo unconstitutional court then that person will no doubt have a warrant issued against his name hence if some over zealous LEO should run a warrants check on that person that person will then be subject to the harsh realities of our criminal justice system for a mere parking ticket/ FTA .

The warrant system needs to be more specific. Some poor slob that missed a court date regarding matrimonial payments should not be subject to the same procedure as a convicted criminal...

Sir Robert Peel is surly smiling in his grave.

My.02

Best regards

CCJ
 

Primus

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Another issue is that the warrant never states the reason for its existence, IE a citizen may have a warrant in his name for not appearing to court for a debt dispute,( default judgement) this is a civil matter. Why should tax payers have to fund the tab for police with regard to time, effort etc in policing a civil matter? Police have no idea if the warrant is for a serious criminal matter or a simple civil dispute... Hence the warrants should be more specific and let police do some real police work.

My .02

Best regards.

CCJ

Warrants in ma are very specific. Have issue date court that issued it and the charges that the warrant is for. So by looking at it you know if its for a dog license charge or a murder charge. Even if you don't have the copy when u contact dispatch they can look it up and tell you. Also even based on charges it shows if its a default (didn't pay a fine maybe or missed a date) or a straight warrant meaning you never showed at all for first arraignment or it was applied for and granted . If its for a fine(court fees) it'll even show the amount. Also it has name dob social address etc. Etc



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