An Observation

This is not an attempt to bash or criticize any group. It is an observation from an old man who has been around the block oncet or twicet.

1. Gun owners in general: Most of the folk I've met, either here, other forums, or IRL, are great folks. There are a few who need a brain-to-mouth filter, but there aren't too many of them.
2. OCDO: This is a great group of freedom-minded folk who are, for the most part, highly intelligent and highly opinionated. This, of course, leads to some disagreements. Most of those disagreements are handled civilly. I am seeing far too many that descend to a level that we do not need to be at on a public forum. I may have been guilty of some of that myself. If so, I most humbly apologize and will do my best to not do it again.
3. Other Gun Rights groups: There are good ones out there in every state. Find one you can support and do so. Beware of those who wrap themselves in that blanket, but act in an opposing manner. Yes, there are those out there, too.
4. CC vs OC: This is one division that needs badly to be healed. The public airing of this controversy does nothing but feed more ammunition to those who would deny us the RKBA.
5. Open carry of AK or AR "pistols": This is not something that I would choose to do at the present time. Perhaps later on, when the presence of a firearm becomes much more accepted nationwide and there is less hand-wringing and panty-wetting from those who would restrict/abolish our right. Right now, I very much fear it is counter-productive. Sure, you can do it, but please ask yourself what the short-term effect will be.
6. One piece of advice: I was a "Doggie". I've worked with Marines, Navy, and Air Force. We always picked at each other and made jokes at the expense of each other's service. But, woe be unto the civilian who thought that gave him license to pick on one of our number. I'm sure the other veterans and active duty members on here will agree that, although we may wear different uniforms, we are brothers- and sisters-in-arms. That is the mindset that each one of us who own firearms need to adopt; you, each and every one of you, are my brothers and sisters. Don't betray that trust.

Good points +1.....except for Coasties, when they grow up and wear long pants they be good to go.

Why do Coasties wear short pants, so they don't get their clothes wet when their tub toy sinks and have to walk to shore.

I would generally agree...

the problem is, healing the CC-only/OC advocate riff will be difficult.

while most OC advocates have no problem with concealed carry, the CC-only crowd dislikes open carry. to many CCers, open carriers are reckless, stupid, "tactically unsound", untrained, etc. to others in states which require training to obtain a license but don't require one for OC instructors probably feel a financial incentive to bashing open carry. I definitely agree the rift needs to be bridged, but its a problem of a conflicting value system.

I don't consider active duty members to be my brothers-in-arms ... ever since they started pointing their guns at me right after 9-11.

I haven't been on a very many "gun" or "carry" forums, but there are some pretty significant things that I've noticed comparing mindsets between those on this forum and one CC forum that I've looked at (and decided not to even sign up at)... And some of the people that I know in person solidify that the mindset I see on that CC forum is fairly common. First I want to mention the constant pressure to provide cites when discussing law. OMG. This single item sets this forum so far apart from the CC forum I've looked at. It's CRAZY how much they just shoot the bull, and they are actually effecting peoples decisions when they do. People accept their "guesses" at the law like it's no big deal.

But the biggest difference I've noticed is that the majority of the opinions I see from CC only guys is that they support carry from a position of jockeying for privilege as opposed to a position of establishing liberty. That is the big difference, IMO, and that is why it can sometimes be very difficult to ever "mend" that relationship. You would have to change fundamentals of their mindset that go much deeper than just the right to bear arms. Sometimes they're already leaning that direction (toward a mindset based on liberty) and it only takes a little nudge, and sometimes they are truly anti-liberty and won't budge.

Just my observation. Not exactly scientific, I'll admit.

How to articulate a civil argument

We can vehemently disagree and still have a civil argument.
I have one self imposed rule for civil arguments; Do not try to convince the opposition I am right because they are wrong.

An analogy would be an archery hunter and modern firearm hunter debating the merits of season lengths, along comes a black powder hunter and interjects a different phillosophy. All of the folks bring thier own rationale and often disagree, opinions are really personal observations, even if they are wrong.

Some folks just can't seem to use thier mouth and ears proportionally. :shocker:

~Whitney

as emn pointed out... the rift between OC and CC is pervasive nationally and I liken it something like pushing a rock uphill which is going to be especially tough to overcome when some state grassroots organization's agenda(s) are geared specifically towards CC.

this is stated as fact for NC so please do not construe my statement as a grassroots gun organization bashing, as their organizational sentiment is well documented in my home thread.

to overcome this, I personally believe the OC folk need to engage in a concerted effort to become 'political' active with emphasis of increasing our vocal representation to these grass root institutions in insisting OC views are equally presented to state governmental entities, thus ensuring everyone's firearms interests are presented appropriately.

to this end moderator latitude in presenting opposing OC views against grassroots organizations if done civilly should be accepted as this is a venue which has readership and when opposing views are moderated out, the grassroots believe they have your tacit approval as do the readership.

finally, I roam WWW pursuing information and also appreciate this forum's mandate to provide cites as it separates opinionated hearsay (read as BS) and allows me the opportunity to review information presented in context verses how the presenter might perceive the information.

bottom line...good job john, et al.

ipse

SFCRetired said:

SNIP 1. Gun owners in general: Most of the folk I've met, either here, other forums, or IRL, are great folks. There are a few who need a brain-to-mouth filter, but there aren't too many of them.

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Just a comment. The right to self-defense includes everybody. Just because a fella wears cowboy boots like me doesn't make him an ally or mean he should find common-cause.

Regarding CC vs OC, "oh well." I don't see it as a division that needs to be healed, I guess because I don't see CCers as "allies". I just see them as folks who take self-defense a little more seriously, thus the sometimes carry a gun. Meaning, I don't see a division. So what if one of them, or ten, or even five thousand dislike OC. Large numbers of them will be susceptible to persuasion. And, the problem probably isn't CC vs OC. The real problem is freedom vs narrow mindedness. Just enlighten them. The super-majority will come around. Freedom is so closely tied to human nature that it is essentially a no-lose argument position. Just find the way to present the freedom argument--they'll come around. When they decide you should have the freedom to carry whichever way you choose--I mean really decide--they'll stop throwing up the anti-OC arguments.

Unfortunately, the rift between CC and OC has not improved in Florida, a CC only state. The vast majority of license holders see the privilege (the state says it's a privilege, not me) to carry concealed as the only means to exercise their right, and the only way they could ever dream of exercising their right. When you mention open carry, they may not even know what you're talking about. Further, I'd say less than 1% of license holders in Fl carry regularly.

I just don't have any strength to argue against the "get shot first" or "tactically unsound" crowd. I don't have the patience with people who should know better. They're not this stupid, they're getting it wrong on purpose. What gives? This: We've all been indoctrinated to treat guns like dirty diapers or tampons (unless you're a cop).

As another poster mentioned, it's not us. I don't care if you want to carry concealed, and most CCers wouldn't care if I OCed, but they're not about to lift a finger to see that the right is respected, which pisses me off.

SFCRetired said:

This is not an attempt to bash or criticize any group. It is an observation from an old man who has been around the block oncet or twicet.
6. One piece of advice: I was a "Doggie". I've worked with Marines, Navy, and Air Force. We always picked at each other and made jokes at the expense of each other's service. But, woe be unto the civilian who thought that gave him license to pick on one of our number. I'm sure the other veterans and active duty members on here will agree that, although we may wear different uniforms, we are brothers- and sisters-in-arms. That is the mindset that each one of us who own firearms need to adopt; you, each and every one of you, are my brothers and sisters. Don't betray that trust.

Click to expand...

Your comment is probably well meant but this 'us vs them' approach is also wrong. If you are in the service yo are there to protect the innocent citizenry, you are the police dogs, perhaps. You don't band together against another like but somewhat dissimilar group. Bullying, elitism, cronyism - it's not good. You don't take one bad behavior and substitute another.

That person who is a 'civvy' is possibly some other Marine's relative. Protect all liberties and freedoms, don't throw one under the bus for the sake of the flavor of the day.

Whitney said:

We can vehemently disagree and still have a civil argument.
I have one self imposed rule for civil arguments; Do not try to convince the opposition I am right because they are wrong.

An analogy would be an archery hunter.....

Click to expand...

It is bow hunter.....

Yes we can

OC for ME said:

It is bow hunter.....

Click to expand...

I see what you did there.

Maverick9 said:

Your comment is probably well meant but this 'us vs them' approach is also wrong. If you are in the service yo are there to protect the innocent citizenry, you are the police dogs, perhaps. You don't band together against another like but somewhat dissimilar group. Bullying, elitism, cronyism - it's not good. You don't take one bad behavior and substitute another.

That person who is a 'civvy' is possibly some other Marine's relative. Protect all liberties and freedoms, don't throw one under the bus for the sake of the flavor of the day.

Click to expand...

1. If the civilian is a relative of a military member, he/she knows better.
2. What I referred to is, and yes it does happen, some civilian hearing a bunch of military ragging on each other and deciding that it is alright to bully the one being picked on. No, just NO, that will not happen. I'm old and retired, but I will lock the heels of any civilian disrespecting a member of the military.
3. Say what you will, those who wear/have worn the uniform are different. There is no way in Hades you can go through Basic Combat Training, Parris Island, Great Lakes, or Lackland and not be forever changed. And, until one of those now serving points a weapon at me or another, and I see it, they are still my brothers and sisters.

SFCRetired said:

1. If the civilian is a relative of a military member, he/she knows better.
2. What I referred to is, and yes it does happen, some civilian hearing a bunch of military ragging on each other and deciding that it is alright to bully the one being picked on. No, just NO, that will not happen. I'm old and retired, but I will lock the heels of any civilian disrespecting a member of the military.
3. Say what you will, those who wear/have worn the uniform are different. There is no way in Hades you can go through Basic Combat Training, Parris Island, Great Lakes, or Lackland and not be forever changed. And, until one of those now serving points a weapon at me or another, and I see it, they are still my brothers and sisters.

Click to expand...

You didn't include Cape May

.....and for good reason.

EMNofSeattle said:

You didn't include Cape May

Click to expand...

The only thing I know about the Coasties is that the Midgetts of North Carolina may be said to be the "First Family" of the U.S. Coast Guard. I have had the distinct honor and privilege of meeting a member of this family aboard a USCG cutter which was in Mobile for Mardi Gras many years ago. I do remember that he was the very epitome of an officer and gentleman, taking the time to talk to an inquisitive twelve-year-old boy.

And, yes, I have as much respect for the Coasties as I do the members of the regular armed services.

no, Lackland didn't impact me at all, NAH...this from an individual who can't remember yesterday's activities yet 41 years later, knows and remembers my TI's name was TSgt Nurse who, at 5 10, and remembers distinctly who put the FoG in me for what I felt was an eternity.

thanks for reviving that period of my life...lol

ipse

SSgt, then TSgt Bratton.

Unfortunately the flight had a true ****-up whose name varied from mine by one letter. I caught a lot of the **** intended for him. Kept my mouth shut and took it. One time the TI made my sound-alike march around a post for about an hour, right face, step, right face, step, right face step, etc, ad infinitum. I'm glad he got that one right.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Bottom line: What I intended with all of that in my original post was to point out that we all, OC, CC, black powder folks, whatever firearm type, need to find some common ground and start pulling together. My comment #6 about the solidarity that exists between members and former members of the military was meant as an example and to suggest that, as gun owners, we need to see if we can't emulate that cohesiveness.

I do believe Dr. Franklin may have unknowingly had us in mind when he said, "If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately."