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Thread: Carrying firearms at relatives residence.

  1. #1
    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Carrying firearms at relatives residence.

    My grandfather is passing and I am staying with him, as so my elderly grandmother has a support system and help with everything that needs to be done.

    Stainless mentioned to ask this here.....(lol at the comments that will be posted because his name was dropped),

    My wife does not have a CPL, but does carry concealed around our house. She only carries when at home. Is she "legally" allowed to conceal while she is inside my grandparents house with out a CPL?

    Stainless said he seemed to remember someone here posting a cite that said you cannot do this. I feel that if a party store owner (that sells alcohol) can give you permission to be present in his store open carrying with out a CPL, then why would there be a problem with my grandmother giving my wife permission to conceal while we are staying at her house???
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

  2. #2
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Don't have a cite off the top of my head, but pretty sure without the home being listed as her legal residence that she would be in violation of MI law without a CPL. Now if this was in AZ- she'd be golden.... MI law is baffling- she's a law-abiding citizen, shirt covers pistol without CPL and POOF! She has instantly become a criminal....outside of her home... Silly, I say.
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    Regular Member Xanaseyr's Avatar
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    750.227
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

  4. #4
    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Now like I said in my original post can my grandmother (the home owner) give her permission to do so, (like a party store owner that sells alcohol)? We have been here for a week today, is there not some law that says my grandmother would technically have to evict us because of how long we have been here? (obviously this would never need to be done) And we still occasionally receive mail here too. I really am not worried about it because the last time I saw a cop in my grandparents neighborhood it was when we called 911 for my grandfather when he had his stroke.

    Because of this non-sense rule, my wife said she will just go to Secretary of State and change her address on the back of her ID to my grandparents address.

    Quick(not), Cheap(free), and Easy(B.S.)
    We are talking about Secretary of State here, lol....
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I think it would depend if the place could be considered her "dwelling house", defined as "housing that someone is living in". I am not a lawyer but if I were in her situation and were staying overnight there for a period of time, it MAY be considered that I am living there. The law doesn't say that she has to own it... this is why you can carry concealed in your hotel room without a CPL. Ultimately, the first step to a successful prosecution of your wife would require that she is detected to be carrying concealed by a law enforcement officer in the home. If it is a huge concern that she would not be considered to be in her "dwelling house", she could "open carry".
    Last edited by DrTodd; 12-14-2013 at 10:59 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  6. #6
    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I think it would depend if the place could be considered her "dwelling house", defined as "housing that someone is living in". I am not a lawyer but if I were in her situation and were staying overnight there for a period of time, it MAY be considered that I am living there. The law doesn't say that she has to own it... this is why you can carry concealed in your hotel room without a CPL. Ultimately, the first step to a successful prosecution of your wife would require that she is detected to be carrying concealed by a law enforcement officer in the home. If it is a huge concern that she would not be considered to be in her "dwelling house", she could "open carry".
    Really, no one is worried.... Stainless and I, were talking and it came up because he knows of my wives carry preference. Even he was not concerned with any trouble coming of this.
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

  7. #7
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneForAll View Post
    Really, no one is worried.... Stainless and I, were talking and it came up because he knows of my wives carry preference. Even he was not concerned with any trouble coming of this.
    Rick - I have learned over the years to: "never say never" LE in your area has shown a willingness to devote huge amounts of time/manpower/resources towards things they "FEEL" could be a violation of the law. Now that it's out there for the world to see, she should OC whenever there is any doubt.... just saying...last thing needed is fighting bogus charges...right?
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Rick - I have learned over the years to: "never say never" LE in your area has shown a willingness to devote huge amounts of time/manpower/resources towards things they "FEEL" could be a violation of the law. Now that it's out there for the world to see, she should OC whenever there is any doubt.... just saying...last thing needed is fighting bogus charges...right?
    Are you saying that just may be others around here too could be charged with bogus crimes?
    Sorry, I had to....
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

  9. #9
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Sure am, even less colorful people may now be on "their" radar.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneForAll View Post
    Even he was not concerned with any trouble coming of this.
    Well, THAT settles it then. Lol.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  11. #11
    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Well, THAT settles it then. Lol.
    Thank you DrTodd, I really needed a good chuckle. It is so difficult to face these times.
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

  12. #12
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    If the gun is registered in her name she can OC in anyone's house that allows it.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  13. #13
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    He was talking about CC.

    Even his wife can't OC his guns?
    That is correct. To carry openly (legally) in MI, one must be the registered owner of the pistol. The exception being a CPL holder who may carry any legal pistol even if not registered in their name. Supposedly, according to MSP, registration stops gun crimes. I say: if that was true - then how come states with no gun registration and more laxed gun laws have far lower rates of violent gun crime? See AZ crime statistics. Time it is called what it is - just another way to keep people from carrying guns, place as many hurdles as possible in the way and hope people don't educate themselves.

    ETA - there's a good reason the Brady campaign gives MI a passing grade of a "C" on their report card of gun control states. I and the good people of AZ are happy to have received a big fat 0 / "F" from them.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 12-16-2013 at 04:42 PM.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  14. #14
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    Sounds like registration is causing crimes, not preventing them.
    See you are thinking logically. Make it harder for law-abiding citizens to obtain and carry defensive side arms and guess what? Criminals still carry & knowing they have a teeny, tiny chance of stumbling upon a citizen who can defend themselves, they have a green light to mame, rape, and kill those they want to. Logic and the law are often polar opposites.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 12-16-2013 at 04:50 PM.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  15. #15
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    He was talking about CC.

    Even his wife can't OC his guns?
    I know he was, but she can't CC anywhere but her own property and only with a handgun that is registered to her.

    My post pointed out that in Michigan if you do not have a CPL you can't possess a handgun that is not registered to you. UNLESS at a range with the owner present. There is a bill that would allow kids and people to shoot a handgun that is not registered to them, without the owner there, but someone over 21 years of age has to be there.

    Michigan is one of about 8 states that require handgun registration.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I know he was, but she can't CC anywhere but her own property and only with a handgun that is registered to her.

    My post pointed out that in Michigan if you do not have a CPL you can't possess a handgun that is not registered to you. UNLESS at a range with the owner present. There is a bill that would allow kids and people to shoot a handgun that is not registered to them, without the owner there, but someone over 21 years of age has to be there.

    Michigan is one of about 8 states that require handgun registration.
    HB 5085, as proposed, requires the owner of the pistol must be physically present.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...3-HIB-5085.pdf

    Scroll down to Subsection (11), Subdivision (e):

    13 (e) The owner of the pistol is physically present.
    I suppose the individual who is supervising and has a CPL may lawfully possess a pistol belonging to someone else for such an event.

  17. #17
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Seems a simple rent agreement would clear this problem up, but then INAL.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    She still doesn't own the gun.
    How old is she? If in your state she cannot buy a centerfire handgun she can probably buy a BP antique firearm. There are ways around these details.

    For the first years that I OC'd/under 21, I OC'd a Colt 1849 pocket pistol. Probably not the best OC handgun, but many times I OC Colt Navies, and sometimes a 58 Remy, both very capable threat stoppers.

    If you go that route, check your state laws to see if firearms, and antique firearms are separate classifications. I would suggest a 5.5 Remy as the the best for most people. Though a 1860 Colt is not a bad choice.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 12-17-2013 at 03:01 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Seems a simple rent agreement would clear this problem up, but then INAL.
    Yes it would per MCL 750.227, Subsection (2).

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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    She still doesn't own the gun.
    Where in this thread did the OP mention his wife did not have a pistol registered to her?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    How old is she? If in your state she cannot buy a centerfire handgun she can probably buy a BP antique firearm. There are ways around these details.

    For the first years that I OC'd/under 21, I OC'd a Colt 1849 pocket pistol. Probably not the best OC handgun, but many times I OC Colt Navies, and sometimes a 58 Remy, both very capable threat stoppers.

    If you go that route, check your state laws to see if firearms, and antique firearms are separate classifications. I would suggest a 5.5 Remy as the the best for most people. Though a 1860 Colt is not a bad choice.
    In Michigan, if you're 18 years of age or older, you may purchase, possess, transport, etc, a handgun per MCL 28.422, Subsection (3), Subdivision (b):

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(nh2...ame=mcl-28-422

    (b) The person is 18 years of age or older or, if the seller is licensed under 18 USC 923, is 21 years of age or older.

  22. #22
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    ANTIQUES AND REPLICAS
    Handguns kept solely for the purpose of display, as relics, curios, or antiques not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated are exempt from the registration and sale provisions.
    An antique firearm is defined as:

    A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
    A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.


    http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/michigan.aspx

    Antique firearms are exempt from registration, so anyone could OC or CC a BP in their residence, or anyplace they occupy as such.

    Rent agreement and cap and ball and she is good to go.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 12-17-2013 at 03:23 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  23. #23
    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    She owns the gun, and is 30. (shh.... I didn't say that, lol)
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

  24. #24
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneForAll View Post
    She owns the gun, and is 30. (shh.... I didn't say that, lol)
    Then just get a simple rent agreement, say 1 dollar a month.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    The CPL isn't the only gun license in Michigan. MCL 28.422 is the non CPL holders license, and registration is still required for possession. Therefore citing Subsection 2 is only applicable if she had a CPL or had a gun registered to her.

    Am I right or no?


    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...ame=mcl-28-422
    According to the OP, the wife would like to CC at a residence which is not hers. You can not legally CC anywhere without a CPL unless it's your own property, home, business per 750.227 (2), not even with permission from the property owner. Even if the wife is at her home, on her property, the pistol needs to be registered to her to legally CC and OC (28.422).

    28.422 = License To Purchase (LTP) a handgun
    28.422a = CPL which waives LTP a handgun

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