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Thread: I have reached the conclusios that police in america should not carry guns

  1. #1
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    I have reached the conclusios that police in america should not carry guns

    The general policy in America should be that police do not carry guns.

    Maybe there could caveats like police can have guns in their trunks, only seargents can carry guns on their persons, stuff like that.

    I don't believe its necessary that ALL police carry guns for all duties.

    We need to change the tone in America between police and citizens. We also need to stop the police shootings and killings.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    So citizen should all open carry guns (I agree) but cops should not? Yea makes a lot of sense......

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    Regular Member Brace's Avatar
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    It does make sense. Police have jobs that require them to handle other people. Open Carriers do not and are carrying purely for their own protection. The gun has become a compliance tool for many police and there's been no sign of that trend slowing or of any accountability being introduced to mitigate this. If you've consistently shown that you can't use a tool properly then you shouldn't be allowed to have it.

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    Citizens have rights unalienable, while public servants have only powers delegated them by their public masters. It may be time to make the master servant relation clear.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So citizen should all open carry guns (I agree) but cops should not? Yea makes a lot of sense......

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    Cops in the UK did not carry for years and years ... they were fine. Outliers of fatalities but nothing to make the job more dangerous than any other job.

    I'm willing to try it ....

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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    Normally I would not agree with disarming cops. But with all the shootings of unarmed citizens and pets, and some officers being less than professional. I can see where this should be discussed

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    We should disarm all citizens because of all of the wacko shooters killing all those innocents. NOT.

    Yet, we take the anomalous, but widely discussed, violence by some officers to advocate disarming all.

    Good thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So citizen should all open carry guns (I agree) but cops should not? Yea makes a lot of sense......

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    Agreed. Cops deserve the right of defense of self and others just as much as anybody else.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    We should disarm all citizens because of all of the wacko shooters killing all those innocents. NOT.

    Yet, we take the anomalous, but widely discussed, violence by some officers to advocate disarming all.

    Good thinking.
    +1

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Unarmed police would be yet another step towards tyranny. What would be then present is "special" police with guns, who only answer to the government. Yea that's really bright, some more of that Commiefornia thinking.

    The second amendment, and the justice system should be for everybody. That means we all have the right and tools to defend ourselves. And everybody is held accountable for crimes against society, including police.
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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    Without throwing a blanket over police in general, but it is time to do something. Not to sound like I'm bashing officer's, but there are more and more cases of officers doing things they should not.. I will say disarming officers should be a last resort.
    Something does need to be done, either more training, more personal accountability to the officer, removing officers from duty ( permanently ).

    I know a lot of officers. Most of them are stand up men and women. But there are a couple that should not be in there position, due to attitudes or general behavior. And I've noticed they don't have many friends. But the couple do cause the whole department to look bad.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    Without throwing a blanket over police in general, but it is time to do something. Not to sound like I'm bashing officer's, but there are more and more cases of officers doing things they should not.. I will say disarming officers should be a last resort.
    Something does need to be done, either more training, more personal accountability to the officer, removing officers from duty ( permanently ).

    I know a lot of officers. Most of them are stand up men and women. But there are a couple that should not be in there position, due to attitudes or general behavior. And I've noticed they don't have many friends. But the couple do cause the whole department to look bad.
    Conandan I'm confused... in your post you said you know a lot of officers that are stand up guys. You then said there's a couple that have bad attitudes. Also these guys are shunned by the rest of the good guys in the PD and that its the few that give a bad name to the majority.....

    So why are you advocating the majority pay for the few? As others have put that's the same mentality that gun grabbers use.

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    May be some basic Constitutional Law classes at the brain washing police academy would assist.

    My .02

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Agreed. Cops deserve the right of defense of self and others just as much as anybody else.
    Did you use the term deserve advisedly? It seems to mean worthy as a result of past actions, to earn, to win, and as a reward.

    And again, as public servants they have only delegated powers.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Did you use the term deserve advisedly? It seems to mean worthy as a result of past actions, to earn, to win, and as a reward.

    And again, as public servants they have only delegated powers.
    Deserve as in they're human beings and they're alive.

    Cop supporters and apologists shouldn't get too happy. I would also support the right of self-defense even for Al Capone.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    ...I would also support the right of self-defense even for Al Capone.
    I would too--until he demonstrated, as proven after due process, that he would use the gun to illegally commit violence on others. Then he should lose that right.

    I would say the same for officers. If an officer demonstrates, as proven after due process, that he would use the gun to illegally commit violence on others, he should lose his gun--and his badge.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I would too--until he demonstrated, as proven after due process, that he would use the gun to illegally commit violence on others. Then he should lose that right.

    I would say the same for officers. If an officer demonstrates, as proven after due process, that he would use the gun to illegally commit violence on others, he should lose his gun--and his badge.
    Well said again eye. I think I'm pretty closely aligned with you on the thought to crush the bad cops but leave the good ones alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Conandan I'm confused... in your post you said you know a lot of officers that are stand up guys. You then said there's a couple that have bad attitudes. Also these guys are shunned by the rest of the good guys in the PD and that its the few that give a bad name to the majority.....

    So why are you advocating the majority pay for the few? As others have put that's the same mentality that gun grabbers use.

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    I am not advocating punishing the majority... But some issues need to be addressed. I make no claim to have the answers or know better than anyone else. I would like people to have respect for law enforcement. You may agree or not but a lot of the respect has been lost over the years.

    From the people in law enforcement that I know say its from officers behavior all the way to having to enforce unpopular laws.
    Maybe the stress of the job is to much for some to handle, and that causes problems.
    Regardless of the reasons something needs to happen to get the people back on the side of the police.

    But there are to many reports of officers crossing the line and its no good for anyone.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    I am not advocating punishing the majority... But some issues need to be addressed. I make no claim to have the answers or know better than anyone else. I would like people to have respect for law enforcement. You may agree or not but a lot of the respect has been lost over the years.

    From the people in law enforcement that I know say its from officers behavior all the way to having to enforce unpopular laws.
    Maybe the stress of the job is to much for some to handle, and that causes problems.
    Regardless of the reasons something needs to happen to get the people back on the side of the police.

    But there are to many reports of officers crossing the line and its no good for anyone.
    I do agree with you. The few that screw up should be held responsible. I'm still not sure I believe in the "rise" of incident s though. Its a commonly toted idea that there's more shootings more beatings etc. Etc. But I've yet to see numbers. Numbers that actually include things like population growth,violent crime growth, officer assault growth, etc. To put the numbers in perspective.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I do agree with you. The few that screw up should be held responsible. I'm still not sure I believe in the "rise" of incident s though. Its a commonly toted idea that there's more shootings more beatings etc. Etc. But I've yet to see numbers. Numbers that actually include things like population growth,violent crime growth, officer assault growth, etc. To put the numbers in perspective.



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    And I agree with you on that as well. I will say that there a those reports of officer misconduct that I have followed up on that are not misconduct at all. The media has jumped the gun on there reporting. But there are lots of reports of officers crossing the line. Unless you really follow up on the reports and know the difference when an officer is being protected by the department, or the media is looking for a story to cause public outrage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    I am not advocating punishing the majority... But some issues need to be addressed. I make no claim to have the answers or know better than anyone else. I would like people to have respect for law enforcement. You may agree or not but a lot of the respect has been lost over the years.

    From the people in law enforcement that I know say its from officers behavior all the way to having to enforce unpopular laws.
    Maybe the stress of the job is to much for some to handle, and that causes problems.
    Regardless of the reasons something needs to happen to get the people back on the side of the police.

    But there are to many reports of officers crossing the line and its no good for anyone.
    My Chief Roddy Perry espoused the fundamental concern that, "Law enforcement has exhausted its emotional bank account with the public." His charge, that stands I believe today, to the department was to replenish the credit that peace officers once enjoyed. I believe that his oft-times opponent, Chief Reuben Greenberg agreed with this assessment and mission.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    And I agree with you on that as well. I will say that there a those reports of officer misconduct that I have followed up on that are not misconduct at all. The media has jumped the gun on there reporting. But there are lots of reports of officers crossing the line. Unless you really follow up on the reports and know the difference when an officer is being protected by the department, or the media is looking for a story to cause public outrage.
    Well said sir... I appreciate the balanced approach. The media runs with to sell papers and then anti Leo guys run with further as "proof" of their views.

    There plenty of really bad guys the do awful things. There are plenty of guns who have drawn an fired their weapon whether maliciously or just incompetently and should be held responsible. But those are the minority by far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Well said sir... I appreciate the balanced approach. The media runs with to sell papers and then anti Leo guys run with further as "proof" of their views.

    There plenty of really bad guys the do awful things. There are plenty of guns who have drawn an fired their weapon whether maliciously or just incompetently and should be held responsible. But those are the minority by far.

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    IMO that would seem like the best place to start. If you hold the officers responsible both civil and financial, maybe it would help them think about there actions a little more. But as it is now they get cover from the department and the union. And I will be the first to admit this is not a bad thing most of the time. But there should be a point if certain offenses are made. Even some of the deputies I know admit the protection they get allows them the abilities to cross the lines sometimes with nothing more than a you know better than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Agreed. Cops deserve the right of defense of self and others just as much as anybody else.
    As any other EMPLOYEE whose conditions of employment the employer controls, yes?

  25. #25
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    IMO that would seem like the best place to start. If you hold the officers responsible both civil and financial, maybe it would help them think about there actions a little more. But as it is now they get cover from the department and the union. And I will be the first to admit this is not a bad thing most of the time. But there should be a point if certain offenses are made. Even some of the deputies I know admit the protection they get allows them the abilities to cross the lines sometimes with nothing more than a you know better than that.
    Agreed again. Its a tough line but it needs to be there. If you have guys scared of getting sued or fired on every call then they can't do their job effectively. But there shouldn't be a blanket pass to do whatever you want. Guys do get prosecuted sued etc. Usually with the big cases.

    Like the van shooting. Guy was wrong for shooting the van. Period. No question. So he lost his job. That's how it should be. Was it a mistake on his part? Sure. But still he screwed up and kids couldve gotten hurt.

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