Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34

Thread: Illegal Sign in Roanoke

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Illegal Sign in Roanoke

    I'm sure there is some crossover between this board and the VCDL group on Facebook, and I'm equally sure there are some here who are not members there.

    This needs attention, so I hope the original poster over there does not object.

    TFred

    Posted by Jack Edison

    Signs have been placed in a Roanoke, VA neighborhood claiming that the neighborhood is a gun free zone. They are at the corners of 13th St & 460, and 18th St & 460. Apparently this Constitutional violation was perpetuated by some neighborhood organization that thinks their will trumps the supreme law of the land.



    Apparently some contact has been made with the local neighborhood organizers who are responsible for the sign, and the response has been, shall we say, less than accommodating.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Being unwilling to "do" social media, I am stuck with a question:

    Does not the City need to give approval for the posting of such signs (the sign itself, not neccessarily the content)?

    While it is commonly done, I seem to recall some sort of regulation at least in Richmond that prohibits the posting of anything on utility poles without some official permission. Think it was a flap over some cop with nothing better to do who was ripping yard sale signs down until someone complained, at which time he ripped them down as evidence and issued summonses to the folks who put them up.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  3. #3
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Being unwilling to "do" social media, I am stuck with a question:

    Does not the City need to give approval for the posting of such signs (the sign itself, not neccessarily the content)?

    While it is commonly done, I seem to recall some sort of regulation at least in Richmond that prohibits the posting of anything on utility poles without some official permission. Think it was a flap over some cop with nothing better to do who was ripping yard sale signs down until someone complained, at which time he ripped them down as evidence and issued summonses to the folks who put them up.

    stay safe.
    That's what I would think as well. ETA: My impression from the many comments is that this is a totally rogue operation.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 12-14-2013 at 04:22 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member half_life1052's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    271

    Two things

    It is on the public easement so the city is responsible for deciding what goes there. Second and more important, it is designed to look like a state regulatory sign (white background black border and text). I don't think this sign is legal (content notwithstanding) without the cities OK.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,964
    Is the sign on a Dominion Power pole?

    Call the power company and complain.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,623
    My understanding is that the utility poles are private property of the utility company.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,171

    Without permission

    Nothing may be posted on utilitry poles, be they power, cable, electric or joint use poles.

    Feel free advise the phone or power company that their poles are being used to advertise without permission. I used to tear down all signs on our poles when I worked for AT & T and turn them into the foreman when I got back to the garage.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,848

    response from "user"

    "user's" response:

    Title 33.1 Highways, Bridges and Ferries
    Chap. 7 Outdoor Advertising in Sight of Public Highways, §§ 33.1-351 -
    33.1-381
    Art. 1 General Regulations, §§ 33.1-351 - 33.1-378

    § 33.1-373. Signs or advertising on rocks, poles, etc., within limits of
    highway; civil penalty. - Any person who in any manner (i) paints, prints,
    places, puts or affixes any sign or advertisement upon or to any rock,
    stone, tree, fence, stump, pole, mile-board, milestone, danger-sign,
    guide-sign, guidepost, highway sign, historical marker, building, or other
    object lawfully within the limits of any highway or (ii) erects, paints,
    prints, places, puts, or affixes any sign or advertisement within the limits
    of any highway shall be assessed a civil penalty of $100. Each occurrence
    shall be subject to a separate penalty. All civil penalties collected under
    this section shall be paid into the Highway Maintenance and Operating Fund.
    Signs or advertisements placed within the limits of the highway are hereby
    declared a public and private nuisance and may be forthwith removed,
    obliterated, or abated by the Commissioner of Highways or his
    representatives without notice. The Commissioner of Highways may collect the
    cost of such removal, obliteration, or abatement from the person erecting,
    painting, printing, placing, putting, affixing or using such sign or
    advertisement. When no one is observed erecting, painting, printing,
    placing, putting, or affixing such sign or advertisement, the person, firm
    or corporation being advertised shall be presumed to have placed the sign or
    advertisement and shall be punished accordingly. Such presumption, however,
    shall be rebuttable by competent evidence. In addition, the Commissioner or
    his representative may seek to enjoin any recurring violator of this
    section. The Commissioner of Highways may enter into agreements with any
    local governing body authorizing local law-enforcement agencies or other
    local governmental entities to act as agents of the Commissioner for the
    purpose of (i) enforcing the provisions of this section and (ii) collecting
    the penalties and costs provided for in this section. Any such agreement may
    provide that penalties and costs collected pursuant to such agreement shall
    be paid as agreed.

    The provisions of this section shall not apply to signs or other outdoor
    advertising regulated under Chapter 7 (§ 33.1-351 et seq.) of this title.
    =====

    Title 18.2 Crimes and Offenses Generally

    Chap. 5 Crimes Against Property, §§ 18.2-77 - 18.2-167.1

    Art. 8 Offenses Relating to Railroads and Other Utilities, §§ 18.2-153 -
    18.2-167.1


    § 18.2-164. Unlawful use of, or injury to, telephone and telegraph lines;
    copying or obstructing messages; penalty. -


    A. If any person commits any of the following acts, he is guilty of a Class
    2 misdemeanor:


    1. Maliciously injure, molest, cut down, or destroy any telephone or
    telegraph line, wire, cable, pole, tower, or the material or property
    belonging thereto;


    2. Maliciously cut, break, tap, or make any connection with any telephone or
    telegraph line, wire, cable, or instrument of any telegraph or telephone
    company which has legally acquired the right-of-way by purchase,
    condemnation, or otherwise;


    3. Maliciously copy in any unauthorized manner any message, either social,
    business, or otherwise, passing over any telephone or telegraph line, wire,
    cable, or wireless telephone transmission in the Commonwealth;


    4. Willfully or maliciously prevent, obstruct, or delay by any means or
    contrivance whatsoever the sending, conveyance, or delivery in the
    Commonwealth of any authorized communication by or through any telephone or
    telegraph line, wire, cable, or wireless transmission device under the
    control of any telephone or telegraph company doing business in the
    Commonwealth;


    5. Maliciously aid, agree with, employ, or conspire with any unauthorized
    person or persons unlawfully to do or cause to be done any of the acts
    hereinbefore mentioned.


    B. If any person, with the intent to prevent another person from summoning
    law-enforcement, fire, or rescue services:


    1. Commits any act set forth in subsection A; or


    2. Maliciously prevents or interferes with telephone or telegraph
    communication by disabling or destroying any device that enables such
    communication, whether wired or wireless, he is guilty of a Class 1
    misdemeanor.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Well, darn.

    Since they don't look like the city put them up, I was gonna suggest painting over the anti-self-defense part of the sign. Or, even hanging another sign just below it, saying that any violation of gun rights would be dealt with severely.

    But, it looks like the statute criminalizes painting signs, and for sure criminalizes hanging a second sign.

    Rats.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    I wouldn't expect User to provide a section of code if he didn't believe it were appropriate to do so, but to my untrained eye, the only possible part of the second section that might apply would seem to be this:

    1. Maliciously injure, molest, cut down, or destroy any telephone or
    telegraph line, wire, cable, pole, tower, or the material or property
    belonging thereto;

    And that depends on whether you can stretch affixing a sign to a pole to rise to "maliciously injure or molest", which seems a far stretch indeed. This may be one of those cases where "maliciously" doesn't mean what we think it means. As deluded as these folks might be, it would be hard to show malicious intent, since they THINK they are "helping."

    The first section seems to hit it right on the head though. How do you enforce it?

    TFred

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    SNIP How do you enforce it?

    TFred
    I really hate calling the police. Especially, as the first resort. Maybe remonstrate with sign-ers, providing them the statute.

    And, if they dig in their heels, go ahead and call the utility next.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Mid-atlantic
    Posts
    1,507
    Think about 'outcomes'

    Call utility, they remove it, sign goes up elsewhere.

    Call cops, they taze -you- (potentially)

    Call the organization and suggest you will be calling and fining - perhaps they will voluntarily remove?

    FWIW

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,623
    There are those that have been involved in the removal of illegal signs in the public right-of-way. Chesterfield, Henrico, and the City of Richmond have similar ordinances which allow any person to remove and dispose such signs - they are considered trash and debris. The more expensive "flag type of signs are no different. Sign ordinances are frequently ignored by some retailers too - those can be reported to zoning offices.

    Some of the most egregious offenders are the mattress stores, cell phone shops, and rip off independent furniture sellers. Real estate companies and some municipal signs enjoy an exception.

    See such signs as a blight on our communities. Removing them is a matter of civic activism.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  14. #14
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    The sign appears to be illegal in my uniformed eyes in that if this is nothing more than your typical neighborhood, it has no weight or power of law. And since it states that, "Violators will face severe federal, state and local criminal penalties" it is clearly an illegal sign (again, in my uniformed eyes).

    How would this be enforceable? Are they going to go into people's homes and charge them if they find firearms? What about someone who is seen putting firearms into their vehicle, or removing them? Or what about someone who is out for a walk with a sidearm openly carried on their person?

    Best thing.... just tear the damned thing down. That's what I would do if I found such a sign posted somewhere withing my neighborhood. Again, before some of the posters on this thread get their skivvies in an uproar, I have no basis in law or anything of the sort with this. Just stating an opinion.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 12-17-2013 at 06:58 AM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    The sign appears to be illegal in my uniformed eyes in that if this is nothing more than your typical neighborhood, it has no weight or power of law. And since it states that, "Violators will face severe federal, state and local criminal penalties" it is clearly an illegal sign (again, in my uniformed eyes).

    How would this be enforceable? Are they going to go into people's homes and charge them if they find firearms? What about someone who is seen putting firearms into their vehicle, or removing them? Or what about someone who is out for a walk with a sidearm openly carried on their person?

    Best thing.... just tear the damned thing down. That's what I would do if I found such a sign posted somewhere withing my neighborhood. Again, before some of the posters on this thread get their skivvies in an uproar, I have no basis in law or anything of the sort with this. Just stating an opinion.
    Is it not also a threat of false or malicious prosecution?

    I wonder if there isn't a civil rights violation in there somewhere. Doesn't the federal civil rights statutes criminalize threatening people for exercising protected rights? The anti-gun part of this sign has a distinct similarity to a white-sheeted man standing outside a restaurant intimidating blacks to prevent them from entering. There's a threat for exercising a protected right.
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-17-2013 at 11:26 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Is it not also a threat of false or malicious prosecution?

    I wonder if there isn't a civil rights violation in there somewhere. Doesn't the federal civil rights statutes criminalize threatening people for exercising protected rights? The anti-gun part of this sign has a distinct similarity to a white-sheeted man standing outside a restaurant intimidating blacks to prevent them from entering. There's a threat for exercising a protected right.
    I would think more along the lines of a gaggle of blacks standing around a voting poll with clubs in their hands.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Is it not also a threat of false or malicious prosecution?

    I wonder if there isn't a civil rights violation in there somewhere. Doesn't the federal civil rights statutes criminalize threatening people for exercising protected rights? The anti-gun part of this sign has a distinct similarity to a white-sheeted man standing outside a restaurant intimidating blacks to prevent them from entering. There's a threat for exercising a protected right.
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    I would think more along the lines of a gaggle of blacks standing around a voting poll with clubs in their hands.
    First, you need to establish that you wanted to "gun" or "drug" in the area comprizing that zone.

    Second, the sign advises that violators "will face severe federal, state and local criminal penalties." In order for anybody to face a criminal penalty they need to be arrested, charged, and put on trial. Then, of course, there is that pesky need to be convicted before any criminal penalty can actually be imposed.

    Which brings up the question of what, if any, federal, state, and local criminal laws one would violate by "gun" or "drug" in that zone.

    I realize that most folks do not bother to analyse things in the manner just presented. Most folks may in fact believe that they cannot legally "gun" or "drug" in that zone and therefore will not. But then, most folks seem not to want to "gun" or "drug" in that zone or anywhere else so the sign at best makes them feel good that Bad People who do "gun" or "drug" will go somewhere else to "gun" or "drug".

    Does that mean that the sign can stay up? I say "No!" but for a reason most of you are not considering.
    Section 14. Government should be uniform.
    That the people have a right to uniform government; and, therefore, that no government separate from, or independent of, the government of Virginia, ought to be erected or established within the limits thereof.
    http://constitution.legis.virginia.gov/

    If that sign was not put up by "the government" its attempts to control the behavior of the population via the application of law is evidence of an attempt to create a "government separate from, or independent of, the government of Virginia." Which is in itself a crime both within and outside that zone:
    http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-481
    § 18.2-481. Treason defined; how proved and punished.

    Treason shall consist only in:

    (1) Levying war against the Commonwealth;

    (2) Adhering to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort;

    (3) Establishing, without authority of the legislature, any government within its limits separate from the existing government;

    (4) Holding or executing, in such usurped government, any office, or professing allegiance or fidelity to it; or

    (5) Resisting the execution of the laws under color of its authority.

    Such treason, if proved by the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or by confession in court, shall be punishable as a Class 2 felony.

    (Code 1950, § 18.1-418; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)
    Having walked y'all through all this, you probably are wondering why. Because some good citizen and true (to coin a phrase) ought to go to the Commonwealth Attorney of the jurisdiction in which the offense is alleged to have been committed, or the jurisdiction in which evidence of the commission of the offense was discovered, and request that the alleged crime be investigated and if sufficient evidence be presented that charges be issued. (Of course, that's a rough paraphraase of how the official language.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    FWIW, having been down this particular road a simple phone call to Dominion along with the pole identification information (on the metal tag that is on all of them) will take care of it. My experience is that Dominion will remove it quickly because like with graffiti if it remains it then gives the impression that defacing their property (with even more signs) is acceptable. My experience is that it will be removed within 24 hours of reporting it.
    NRA Life Member

    "The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Fairfax county
    Posts
    17
    Apparently some contact has been made with the local neighborhood organizers who are responsible for the sign, and the response has been, shall we say, less than accommodating.[/QUOTE]

    Perhaps they would prefer a 90 minute open carry march through their neighborhood. Maybe it's time for a local breakfast meet up and a march to follow. Sometime after the first of the year would be good. Count me in if you guys want to do it.

    Depending on the size of the neighborhood we could also flyer it with a written notification that the sign is illegal and incorrect. Our opponents are getting desperate and are now willing to take illegal actions.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    FWIW, having been down this particular road a simple phone call to Dominion along with the pole identification information (on the metal tag that is on all of them) will take care of it. My experience is that Dominion will remove it quickly because like with graffiti if it remains it then gives the impression that defacing their property (with even more signs) is acceptable. My experience is that it will be removed within 24 hours of reporting it.
    It may just be me, but I don't think so.

    The point is not the presence of the sign so much as it is the notion that some neighborhood organization has that they can enact/enforce rules of behavior on everybody. (The preceeding was based on the presumption tht this might be a HOA that can enact/enforce rules on members of the HOA.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  21. #21
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Hell, just go out and tear the damned thing down. How hard is that?
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,171

    HOA makes no difference

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It may just be me, but I don't think so.

    The point is not the presence of the sign so much as it is the notion that some neighborhood organization has that they can enact/enforce rules of behavior on everybody. (The preceeding was based on the presumption tht this might be a HOA that can enact/enforce rules on members of the HOA.)

    stay safe.
    They have no right or authority to post anything on a utility pole, period. None, zero, zip, nada!!!!

    The Fascist HOA community can post any sign they approve on THEIR property, but NOT on a utility pole according to the AT&T legal department.

    Take down the pole number and report it to the utility. I "removed" signs, Basketball hoops, clothes, shoes, and a bunch of other garbage over the years while employed by AT&T.
    Last edited by va_tazdad; 12-19-2013 at 08:23 AM.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Catlett, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,134
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Hell, just go out and tear the damned thing down. How hard is that?
    Just tearing down the sign does nothing to educate the morons who put it up in the first place...

    Roscoe
    Last edited by roscoe13; 12-19-2013 at 09:12 AM. Reason: typo...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  24. #24
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    I'm not an HOA expert, but it appears to me that this neighborhood is well established, not a subdivision with specific boundaries, etc. I don't know the rules, but I would be very skeptical that an official HOA is involved here. There are plenty of neighborhoods which organize themselves to varying degrees of rigor with "associations", etc., but I believe for an HOA to exist, every property owner must agree and attach covenants to the property, which in old neighborhoods, is extremely unlikely. I believe most, if not nearly all HOAs exist as a result of new development, where the original tract of land is subdivided and HOA covenants placed on each lot at that time.

    Happy to learn different, if that is incorrect.

    TFred

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It may just be me, but I don't think so.

    The point is not the presence of the sign so much as it is the notion that some neighborhood organization has that they can enact/enforce rules of behavior on everybody. (The preceeding was based on the presumption tht this might be a HOA that can enact/enforce rules on members of the HOA.)

    stay safe.
    I wasn't though addressing those issues myself. And I don't in anyway disagree with your point but was simply discussing the mechanics of getting the sign removed.

    Regarding the notion that some individual(s) simply decided to put up a sign on their own didn't escape me, however, I view this one personally as like trying to teach a pig to sing. There's probably not much that any one of us can do to get them to see the error of their ways as they clearly most likely don't and won't care. I'm simply discussing removing the sign. I think though that in a war between who has more resources - them to put up that sign (and any expensive replacements) or Dominion (who has an army of trucks rolling around that can keep removing them), I'm betting on Dominion.
    NRA Life Member

    "The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •