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Thread: I've asked hunters...now I'm asking here

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I've asked hunters...now I'm asking here

    This year is going to be interesting. I've predicted a host of anti gun bills and it looks like there will be dog bills and Sunday Hunting as well.

    Here's the problem. Everyone hates everyone else

    Instead of dissecting a bill to see the harm as well as the benefit, we support or not, based on the damage it will do to the opposition.

    We need to look at everything presented. Gun Bills should concern hunters, hunting bills should concern Pro 2nd people, CHP, OC, Dog hunting, Sunday Hunting....they are all tied together and there is no single organization that represents everyone unless you are still remembering the NRA if yester-year.

    That means there has to be some coordinated effort among individuals.

    Any thoughts about this?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    All we can do is load up and see what comes down.



    At least he got to quit shoveling!
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    This year is going to be interesting. I've predicted a host of anti gun bills and it looks like there will be dog bills and Sunday Hunting as well.

    Here's the problem. Everyone hates everyone else

    Instead of dissecting a bill to see the harm as well as the benefit, we support or not, based on the damage it will do to the opposition.

    We need to look at everything presented. Gun Bills should concern hunters, hunting bills should concern Pro 2nd people, CHP, OC, Dog hunting, Sunday Hunting....they are all tied together and there is no single organization that represents everyone unless you are still remembering the NRA if yester-year.

    That means there has to be some coordinated effort among individuals.

    Any thoughts about this?
    Count me in. Gun use is gun use, and should be supported appropriately.

    If you stop talking long enough to listen, you can hear the world... -My Father-

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    This year is going to be interesting. I've predicted a host of anti gun bills and it looks like there will be dog bills and Sunday Hunting as well.

    Here's the problem. Everyone hates everyone else

    Instead of dissecting a bill to see the harm as well as the benefit, we support or not, based on the damage it will do to the opposition.

    We need to look at everything presented. Gun Bills should concern hunters, hunting bills should concern Pro 2nd people, CHP, OC, Dog hunting, Sunday Hunting....they are all tied together and there is no single organization that represents everyone unless you are still remembering the NRA if yester-year.

    That means there has to be some coordinated effort among individuals.

    Any thoughts about this?
    I am a hunter as well and agree all need to be watched.
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    mpguy -

    Thanks for the entuusiasm, but I'm afaid that in this situation you do not count.

    peter nap is saying that duck hunters need to form coalitions with dog hunters, bullseye shooters need to form coalitions with The Association for Retarted Citizens, and gun rights organizations (yes, I do mean VCDL here) need to not only understand that anything to do with firearms is vitally important but that they would do better being the second-, third-, or even fourth-string in these coalitions.

    We are seeing that the aqnti-gun rights/stop "gun violence" folks are doing very little that focuses directly on firearms. Heck, they are even some of the movers and supporters behind the legislation that may get some people (with the "right" training and the "right" permits) carrying concealed in K-12 schools. Right now the gun rights groups seem to be thinking that the proposed legislation is not all that bad, and that it could be tweaked later to fix some of the problems, instead of seeing how the anti-gun rights/stop "gun violence" folks are pouring Super Lube on the slope.

    Why second-fiddle, you ask? Because instead of attacking gun rights in a full frontal attack, this upcoming round in the battle is shaping up as a bunch of end-runs and "enhancements" of already existing practices - some of which I call the "misdemeanorization" of civil rights. The definition of "violence" is being expanded, and the numbers of crimes that are up for being branded as "crimes of violence" are increasing. Who really cares if civil rights are denied to criminals? Have you bever been in an automobile accident? Or driven past the scene of one where there were still ambulances or fire trucks there? You must be suffering from PTSD from that, and that makes you a mentally ill (read: unstable) person who should be considered too dangerous to be allowed to posses firearms. Did you ever have a "senior moment"? Ever hesitate is speaking because the word you wanted to say was on the toip of your tongue but just not coming out? Those are signs of dementia, and people with dementia should not posses firearms. Have you ever been just the tiniest bit "bummed out" about/because of somethging? Then you are clinically depressed and too dangerous to be allowed to posses firearms. Ad infinitum.

    And those are just a few of the things we are going to be facing. And while are are facing them because of the firearms possession issue, the people who are already included/considred included (to use ADA-speak) in those groups will have additional restrictions beyond not being allowed to posses firearms heaped on their head in order to heap those consequences on the gun rights group's heads.

    It's not going to be enouigh to give lip service by saying we support the rights of the ___. We are going to have to start working with them as a means of protecting ourselves as well as them.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpguy View Post
    Count me in. Gun use is gun use, and should be supported appropriately.

    If you stop talking long enough to listen, you can hear the world... -My Father-
    Uh, while listening to the world you may only hear nature sounds and understand (English speaking folks) 1 out of 10 people.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    This year is going to be interesting. I've predicted a host of anti gun bills and it looks like there will be dog bills and Sunday Hunting as well.

    Here's the problem. Everyone hates everyone else

    Instead of dissecting a bill to see the harm as well as the benefit, we support or not, based on the damage it will do to the opposition.

    We need to look at everything presented. Gun Bills should concern hunters, hunting bills should concern Pro 2nd people, CHP, OC, Dog hunting, Sunday Hunting....they are all tied together and there is no single organization that represents everyone unless you are still remembering the NRA if yester-year.

    That means there has to be some coordinated effort among individuals.

    Any thoughts about this?
    All of us should agree to our own NATO Article 5 Doctrine.

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    Regular Member half_life1052's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    mpguy -

    Thanks for the entuusiasm, but I'm afaid that in this situation you do not count.

    peter nap is saying that duck hunters need to form coalitions with dog hunters, bullseye shooters need to form coalitions with The Association for Retarted Citizens, and gun rights organizations (yes, I do mean VCDL here) need to not only understand that anything to do with firearms is vitally important but that they would do better being the second-, third-, or even fourth-string in these coalitions.

    We are seeing that the aqnti-gun rights/stop "gun violence" folks are doing very little that focuses directly on firearms. Heck, they are even some of the movers and supporters behind the legislation that may get some people (with the "right" training and the "right" permits) carrying concealed in K-12 schools. Right now the gun rights groups seem to be thinking that the proposed legislation is not all that bad, and that it could be tweaked later to fix some of the problems, instead of seeing how the anti-gun rights/stop "gun violence" folks are pouring Super Lube on the slope.

    Why second-fiddle, you ask? Because instead of attacking gun rights in a full frontal attack, this upcoming round in the battle is shaping up as a bunch of end-runs and "enhancements" of already existing practices - some of which I call the "misdemeanorization" of civil rights. The definition of "violence" is being expanded, and the numbers of crimes that are up for being branded as "crimes of violence" are increasing. Who really cares if civil rights are denied to criminals? Have you bever been in an automobile accident? Or driven past the scene of one where there were still ambulances or fire trucks there? You must be suffering from PTSD from that, and that makes you a mentally ill (read: unstable) person who should be considered too dangerous to be allowed to posses firearms. Did you ever have a "senior moment"? Ever hesitate is speaking because the word you wanted to say was on the toip of your tongue but just not coming out? Those are signs of dementia, and people with dementia should not posses firearms. Have you ever been just the tiniest bit "bummed out" about/because of somethging? Then you are clinically depressed and too dangerous to be allowed to posses firearms. Ad infinitum.

    And those are just a few of the things we are going to be facing. And while are are facing them because of the firearms possession issue, the people who are already included/considred included (to use ADA-speak) in those groups will have additional restrictions beyond not being allowed to posses firearms heaped on their head in order to heap those consequences on the gun rights group's heads.

    It's not going to be enouigh to give lip service by saying we support the rights of the ___. We are going to have to start working with them as a means of protecting ourselves as well as them.

    stay safe.

    In the software world the tactic is called "embrace,extend, extinguish". -- Microsoft playbook

    "When my enemy begins to act like my friend, my enemies enemy becomes my friend." -- I am not sure where this came from

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by half_life1052 View Post
    In the software world the tactic is called "embrace,extend, extinguish". -- Microsoft playbook

    "When my enemy begins to act like my friend, my enemies enemy becomes my friend." -- I am not sure where this came from
    Let me try to malke myself a bit clearer. This is not about the enemy of my enemy - it is about people that want to control the lives and behavior of other people, and how they are willing to trample on "innocent bystanders" (and some guilty bystanders as well) in order to get control over their current target group. In order to work against that we are going to have to not only look out for our interests but the interests of those bystanders as well, less we find ourselves the cause of them getting swept up by what some might characterize as unintended consequences/collateral damage.

    While preserving what is left of the right to keep and bear arms, and to restore the portions of that right that have been lost may be one of my primary goals, it is not my only focus of concern. It all breaks down to protecting all of the rights of all of the people. I have to focus my energies and make certain priorities, but when those control seekers plot to get at me through the control of some other group I see it as my duty to join that other group in protecting their rights as I continue working to protect/restore my gun rights.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    SNIP While preserving what is left of the right to keep and bear arms, and to restore the portions of that right that have been lost may be one of my primary goals, it is not my only focus of concern. It all breaks down to protecting all of the rights of all of the people. I have to focus my energies and make certain priorities, but when those control seekers plot to get at me through the control of some other group I see it as my duty to join that other group in protecting their rights as I continue working to protect/restore my gun rights.

    stay safe.
    I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. I've carried in my signature line words very, very similar for over a year.

    Check my signature line. (If you turned off sig lines, you have to re-enable it in your profile settings.)

    As I said earlier, "A man after my own heart."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    This year is going to be interesting. I've predicted a host of anti gun bills and it looks like there will be dog bills and Sunday Hunting as well.
    Here's the problem. Everyone hates everyone else
    Instead of dissecting a bill to see the harm as well as the benefit, we support or not, based on the damage it will do to the opposition.
    We need to look at everything presented. Gun Bills should concern hunters, hunting bills should concern Pro 2nd people, CHP, OC, Dog hunting, Sunday Hunting....they are all tied together and there is no single organization that represents everyone unless you are still remembering the NRA if yester-year.
    That means there has to be some coordinated effort among individuals.
    Any thoughts about this?
    Unfortunately this will never happen peternap simply because hunting issues do not concern gun owners unless it effects their ability to own/carry or shoot.
    My obsession with getting sunday hunting has nothing to do with carrying a gun on sunday downtown Virginia Beach...

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJG View Post
    Unfortunately this will never happen peternap simply because hunting issues do not concern gun owners unless it effects their ability to own/carry or shoot.
    My obsession with getting sunday hunting has nothing to do with carrying a gun on sunday downtown Virginia Beach...
    You're right! It doesn't have anything to do with it. BUT....Hunters are unquestionably the largest group of gun owners in the state. They're also the least organized except for the dog hunters Burch has which isn't anywhere near as large as he claims.

    They are also the reason for no Sunday Hunting thus far and their interference with VCDL has been a major reason for their not taking on projects that concern all gunowners.

    So why should the two groups support each other?

    Simple....numbers.
    Go to the General Assembly and call for Sunday Hunting. Gets mighty lonely there all alone. Or on the other side, call for Constitutional Carry with three quarters of the gun owners in the state more concerned about the Realtree pattern on their stock.

    But Go to Lobby day where up to a thousand people are wearing GSL and Sunday Hunting stickers and the legislators take notice.

    I'm not suggesting the hard core in either group engage in a group hug....just a show of support.

    Not everyone is willing to budge, I doubt I'll see you at Lobby day but I won't see Tess at a Sunday Hunting Committee Meeting either.

    Like I told TD...I'm not a leader, just one opinionated person and I can't move the world.

    But hopefully I will see many that have never attended before and we'll have some success this year.

    Or I could just go rabbit hunting and hope someone else takes out the garbage before I get home.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJG View Post
    Unfortunately this will never happen peternap simply because hunting issues do not concern gun owners unless it effects their ability to own/carry or shoot.
    My obsession with getting sunday hunting has nothing to do with carrying a gun on sunday downtown Virginia Beach...
    Disagree - that is exactly the point.

    Sunday hunting, carrying in state forests, and come-latelies complaining about range noise are all part of the package we call our Right To Keep & Bear Arms. It is too important of an issue to be fragmented, sliced and diced, divided up amongst various factions.

    When we band together for the common cause, then we shall present a truly powerful lobby with a voice that shall be heard. Let no one be mistaken about that.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Disagree - that is exactly the point.

    Sunday hunting, carrying in state forests, and come-latelies complaining about range noise are all part of the package we call our Right To Keep & Bear Arms. It is too important of an issue to be fragmented, sliced and diced, divided up amongst various factions.

    When we band together for the common cause, then we shall present a truly powerful lobby with a voice that shall be heard. Let no one be mistaken about that.
    Scratch what I just said.....this is better!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Disagree - that is exactly the point.
    Sunday hunting, carrying in state forests, and come-latelies complaining about range noise are all part of the package we call our Right To Keep & Bear Arms. It is too important of an issue to be fragmented, sliced and diced, divided up amongst various factions.
    When we band together for the common cause, then we shall present a truly powerful lobby with a voice that shall be heard. Let no one be mistaken about that.
    Grape & peternap... I would love to see a unfragmented show of support.
    peternap makes a awesome point, that hunters are a large portion of gun owners in the state and WE always show support for any 2A issues.
    But not all gun owners are hunters, or care about my ability to be in the woods on sunday hunting because they already can be in the woods on sunday target shooting.
    We, the hunters support RKBA, so do the NRA, the NSSF, the VDHA as does the VCDL... the largest voice in the state....
    I just speak from what I see, not as in any official capacity of those groups.
    But show me hunters legislation support from any org for SH, besides the NRA & the NSSF.

    And peter, dont count me out for making lobby day... there are a few of us that actually need to make a living!

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJG View Post
    --snipped--... there are a few of us that actually need to make a living!
    Well do I understand that especially having removed myself from the collective pool of those gainfully employed - actually paid for their services

    Still consider the quality of life, potential loss of RKBA opportunitites, when setting priorities. Many take advantage of vacation/leave time, use comp days, or unused sick leave.

    Lobby Day is a very big deal. It is one day where Virginia is neither blue nor red - orange, bright dayglow, shining, vibrant orange is the color of the day.

    Anyone not in opposition to our collective gun rights is encouraged, pushed, pulled & prodded to take a stand in support.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Making some progress getting everyone on the same page. Hunters are responding.

    JOIN VCDL AND GET A DISCOUNT!With out new elected Gov. of VA we will need all the gun rights help we can get! PLEASE JOIN THE VCDL. We will give $10 off any firearms service for any new member from this day forward!

    http://vcdl.org/

    http://www.baysidecustomgunworks.com

  18. #18
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Making some progress getting everyone on the same page. Hunters are responding.

    JOIN VCDL AND GET A DISCOUNT!With out new elected Gov. of VA we will need all the gun rights help we can get! PLEASE JOIN THE VCDL. We will give $10 off any firearms service for any new member from this day forward!

    http://vcdl.org/

    http://www.baysidecustomgunworks.com
    Suggested fixes: Put a space in between the right bracket and the word "With" and change "out" to "our"
    Air Force Veteran
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  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Suggested fixes: Put a space in between the right bracket and the word "With" and change "out" to "our"
    I'll pass it on James, but he and I argue about what color the sky is....so I don't know if he'll be interested.

  20. #20
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Suggested fixes: Put a space in between the right bracket and the word "With" and change "out" to "our"
    I dunno... when it come to the new Gov'ner, "without" has a nice ring to it.


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