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Thread: Green Card Holder and Vehicle OC in North Carolina?

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    Green Card Holder and Vehicle OC in North Carolina?

    Hi all.

    I saw the other thread about car carry, but wanted to open a new thread because our situation involves potential possession by a non-citizen.

    My family and I will be visiting relatives in North Carolina on Christmas Day. Unfortunately, my wife and I won't have our Michigan concealed carry licenses finalized in time for the trip. So that leaves vehicle open carry as our only self-defense option, as best as I can tell.

    My wife is a legal resident alien and she may be present in the vehicle in control of our family sidearm when I have to step out of the vehicle (i.e. pump gas, use the lavatory, run into a store, etc.).

    Some states either do not allow non-U.S. citizens to possess firearms or have separate rules. Are there any legal pitfalls we should watch out for?

    Finally, in the event of law enforcement contact, how should we handle the situation? Are we required to inform or are we better off staying silent, etc. I am not sure how accepted open carry is in your good state as I don't frequent the North Carolina forum.

    A big thanks!

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    In no state that I'm aware of are lawful permanent residents legally barred from possessing firearms. In fact the second amendment foundation has filed three lawsuits about that in the past and all three states settled and stopped enforcing those laws.

    I can't find any law that would prohibit that action.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Well first off you do not have to leave your sidearm in the vehicle while pumping gas, unless the lot is posted. The only thing her not being a citizen affects is she cannot get a NC CHP, other than that she can OC just the same as you.

    Keep in mind that OC in the vehicle the firearm cannot be covered with anything, like a purse, jacket, shirt. Even if a garment is accidentally dropped over the gun her or you could be charged. The best place for the sidearm is to remain on a hip holster not covered by anything. In NC also you do not have to disclose you have a firearm unless it is concealed, and the carrier has a CHP.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The only thing her not being a citizen affects is she cannot get a NC CHP
    Oh really, so the state of North Carolina is violating the constitution, where in the constitution is NC given the power to regulate anything related to immigration? And where are they given the power to treat lawfully admitted aliens different then other people? New Mexico is under injunction from a federal court over this very issue and Missouri and Nebraska settled with SAF over the issue of licenses for non citizen resident aliens. Sounds like its time for NC to learn the hard way since the morons who run the legislature can't learn the easy way...
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Oh really, so the state of North Carolina is violating the constitution, where in the constitution is NC given the power to regulate anything related to immigration? And where are they given the power to treat lawfully admitted aliens different then other people? New Mexico is under injunction from a federal court over this very issue and Missouri and Nebraska settled with SAF over the issue of licenses for non citizen resident aliens. Sounds like its time for NC to learn the hard way since the morons who run the legislature can't learn the easy way...
    Concealed carry is a privilege, and SO IS a permit to conceal carry, otherwise there would be no permit. Duhhhhhhhhhh!

    BTW could you give the cites for those cases? I would like to see what they actually state.

    Keep in mind that SAF has already lost several cases on concealed carry. Seems they got their arse handed to them in Colorado. ehhh?
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 12-17-2013 at 06:43 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Concealed carry is a privilege, and SO IS a permit to conceal carry, otherwise there would be no permit. Duhhhhhhhhhh!
    States cannot make being a lawful resident alien a condition for receiving the same rights and privileges as citizens unless the Feds authorize it. Nebraska lost at court over refusing to issue licenses to non citizens. (LaJous et al v Bruning et al) New Mexicos provision is stayed permanently (Jackson v King) and Missouri changed their provisions after the SAF sued them. North Carolina better start respecting federal law fast or Gottliebs going to be putting another notch in his pistol shortly
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    States cannot make being a lawful resident alien a condition for receiving the same rights and privileges as citizens unless the Feds authorize it. Nebraska lost at court over refusing to issue licenses to non citizens. (LaJous et al v Bruning et al) New Mexicos provision is stayed permanently (Jackson v King) and Missouri changed their provisions after the SAF sued them. North Carolina better start respecting federal law fast or Gottliebs going to be putting another notch in his pistol shortly
    Complete utter Bovine Scatology, is there a ruling in 4th circuit federal court or not? Legal aliens do have the right to self defense, same as everybody who is not a felon in NC. CC in NC is a privilege, it is not tied to the right to self defense. OPEN CARRY on the other hand is protected and extended to all who are not felons.

    Go pound sand!

    BTW I looked up those rulings on the SAF site and they do not say what you claim. People in Seattle need to kiss my rebel arse.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 12-17-2013 at 06:55 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Complete utter Bovine Scatology, is there a ruling in 4th circuit federal court or not? Legal aliens do have the right to self defense, same as everybody who is not a felon in NC. CC in NC is a privilege, it is not tied to the right to self defense. OPEN CARRY on the other hand is protected and extended to all who are not felons.

    Go pound sand!

    BTW I looked up those rulings on the SAF site and they do not say what you claim. People in Seattle need to kiss my rebel arse.
    They say exactly that. In the nebraska case, the judge orders defendants are permanently enjoined from enforcing the law. Directly from Judge Kopfs ruling

    "entry of the final order and permanent injunction, Defendant shall allow Plaintiffs and other lawful permanent residents residing in Nebraska to apply for, and obtain, a permit to carry a concealed handgun, provided they are otherwise qualified to obtain such a permit pursuant to the Nebraska Concealed Handgun Permit Act,”

    Or Jackson v king where a permanent injunction is now in effect. Go to SAFs website and look it up, the final filing on Jackson v king is an order of injunction ordering the state of New Mexico to issue licenses. If you were never taught to read plain printed English then you need to take out your frustration on school district and not me...

    Short answer, a state may not discriminate against a lawful resident alien. End of story. Yes you can open carry in NC and if they won't issue you a license then feel free to call SAF...
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Well first off you do not have to leave your sidearm in the vehicle while pumping gas, unless the lot is posted. The only thing her not being a citizen affects is she cannot get a NC CHP, other than that she can OC just the same as you.

    Keep in mind that OC in the vehicle the firearm cannot be covered with anything, like a purse, jacket, shirt. Even if a garment is accidentally dropped over the gun her or you could be charged. The best place for the sidearm is to remain on a hip holster not covered by anything. In NC also you do not have to disclose you have a firearm unless it is concealed, and the carrier has a CHP.
    Best answer so far! Thanks WalkingWolf, this helps us understand the situation.

    The only OC holster I have for the sidearm we plan on bringing is worn around the 3 to 5 o'clock position on the hip. Is partial cover by the seatback ok? Also if we leave it out in plain sight, like on the dash, would it need to be holstered? Again, I only have that one holster and it is not slip on/slip off. Basically I have to remove my belt to get it on and off.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Best answer so far! Thanks WalkingWolf, this helps us understand the situation.

    The only OC holster I have for the sidearm we plan on bringing is worn around the 3 to 5 o'clock position on the hip. Is partial cover by the seatback ok? Also if we leave it out in plain sight, like on the dash, would it need to be holstered? Again, I only have that one holster and it is not slip on/slip off. Basically I have to remove my belt to get it on and off.
    Some people feel better placing the gun on the dash when stopped. As far as I know, the usual drill is to leave it holstered with most of us. Being covered by the seatback IMO is not concealed. Now I cannot make any guarantees as to what a individual officer thinks. Remember you do not have to tell a officer you are armed, and if he does see the gun in this state that is not concealed. 3 o'clock would be fine, 5 o'clock sounds uncomfortable, any further back then that the intent may be implied by the officer that one is concealing. I would not drive around with the firearm on the dash, it is liable to end up on the floor. Many times for comfort I take my belt off and buckle it around the seat, which makes the firearm clearly visible and very accessible.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    They say exactly that. In the nebraska case, the judge orders defendants are permanently enjoined from enforcing the law. Directly from Judge Kopfs ruling

    "entry of the final order and permanent injunction, Defendant shall allow Plaintiffs and other lawful permanent residents residing in Nebraska to apply for, and obtain, a permit to carry a concealed handgun, provided they are otherwise qualified to obtain such a permit pursuant to the Nebraska Concealed Handgun Permit Act,”

    Or Jackson v king where a permanent injunction is now in effect. Go to SAFs website and look it up, the final filing on Jackson v king is an order of injunction ordering the state of New Mexico to issue licenses. If you were never taught to read plain printed English then you need to take out your frustration on school district and not me...

    Short answer, a state may not discriminate against a lawful resident alien. End of story. Yes you can open carry in NC and if they won't issue you a license then feel free to call SAF...
    Got any SCOTUS or 4th District cites? If not, then I believe that WW has it 100% correct. Non 4th District rulings are not controlling, you should know better. CC is a privilege NOT a right, and the SCOTUS has said (I don't have the cites at hand, but I believe that either Heller or McDonald referenced it) that CC is a privilege.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    They say exactly that. In the nebraska case, the judge orders defendants are permanently enjoined from enforcing the law. Directly from Judge Kopfs ruling

    "entry of the final order and permanent injunction, Defendant shall allow Plaintiffs and other lawful permanent residents residing in Nebraska to apply for, and obtain, a permit to carry a concealed handgun, provided they are otherwise qualified to obtain such a permit pursuant to the Nebraska Concealed Handgun Permit Act,”

    Or Jackson v king where a permanent injunction is now in effect. Go to SAFs website and look it up, the final filing on Jackson v king is an order of injunction ordering the state of New Mexico to issue licenses. If you were never taught to read plain printed English then you need to take out your frustration on school district and not me...

    Short answer, a state may not discriminate against a lawful resident alien. End of story. Yes you can open carry in NC and if they won't issue you a license then feel free to call SAF...
    Besides...then based upon your theory, resident aliens would be able to get any Federal job or any state sworn position. This is NOT the case.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    EMN I did go to SAF website, YOU are dishonest.

    AND as any intelligent person should know that rulings outside the 4th and SCOTUS has no bearing on NC.

    GO POUND SAND!
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
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    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    CG, SAF got a spanking in CO, now they are urinating up the same line that will eventually end up in SCOTUS, and they will get a spanking there. Especially after Obama or Hillary appoints a SCOTUS judge. IMO states that do not have OC, or OC is tied to a privilege card then that argument can be made. BUT we do have the right to bear arms, and as has been ruled in other federal courts the states have the right to set limits to the privilege.

    SAF is another CC group of morons arguing concealed carry when they should be arguing the right to bear arms.

    District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court noted that “the

    majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on

    carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state

    analogues,” and explained that “nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on

    longstanding prohibitions.” Id. at 626. In light of our nation’s extensive practice of

    restricting citizens’ freedom to carry firearms in a concealed manner, we hold that this

    activity does not fall within the scope of the Second Amendment’s protections.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 12-18-2013 at 07:47 AM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    CG, SAF got a spanking in CO, now they are urinating up the same line that will eventually end up in SCOTUS, and they will get a spanking there. Especially after Obama or Hillary appoints a SCOTUS judge. IMO states that do not have OC, or OC is tied to a privilege card then that argument can be made. BUT we do have the right to bear arms, and as has been ruled in other federal courts the states have the right to set limits to the privilege.

    SAF is another CC group of morons arguing concealed carry when they should be arguing the right to bear arms.

    District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court noted that “the

    majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on

    carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state

    analogues,” and explained that “nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on

    longstanding prohibitions.” Id. at 626. In light of our nation’s extensive practice of

    restricting citizens’ freedom to carry firearms in a concealed manner, we hold that this

    activity does not fall within the scope of the Second Amendment’s protections.

    +1 ... thanks for doing the digging, that was tickling at the back of my brain last night!
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member razor_baghdad's Avatar
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    hey all, back from the box for a minute.

    Also keep in mind that NC does not require ID when being "questioned", your name should be enough, vice, NC is not a "Stop and ID" state. There is absolutely no way that anyone need know your wife is a resident alien unless you or she tells them (sic: if being questioned after breaking the law).

    I should know, mine is (ret) FedPol Argentina and she carries. 1.5 years until she raises her hand and cites the PoA, same boat as the OP.

  17. #17
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor_baghdad View Post
    hey all, back from the box for a minute.

    Also keep in mind that NC does not require ID when being "questioned", your name should be enough, vice, NC is not a "Stop and ID" state. There is absolutely no way that anyone need know your wife is a resident alien unless you or she tells them (sic: if being questioned after breaking the law).

    I should know, mine is (ret) FedPol Argentina and she carries. 1.5 years until she raises her hand and cites the PoA, same boat as the OP.
    AFAIK, for OC in NC, there is no citizenship requirement at all, so the residency issue is really a non-issue. As long as she is not a person prohibited from owning/possessing a firearm she can carry anywhere that a US Citizen can OC without a CHP.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  18. #18
    Regular Member razor_baghdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    AFAIK, for OC in NC, there is no citizenship requirement at all, so the residency issue is really a non-issue. As long as she is not a person prohibited from owning/possessing a firearm she can carry anywhere that a US Citizen can OC without a CHP.
    I just went back and re-read NC Gen. Stat & 14-404 and 18 U.S.C. & 922(d)(5) and you are correct sir! Now I need to contact the USAG to see what a waiver entails. 18 U.S.C. & 922(y)

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