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Tasers - An Electronics Tech's Opinion

JoeSparky

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Its not voltage but amperage that kills you. Our tasers are .0008 amps. Not lethal. A normal healthy person can take that hit and survive. If there are other medical complications then yes you can die. I took the hit as have pretty much all the guys who use them. In order to be an instructor (around here) you have to take a hit.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

So, not to get too far off subject.... JUST how do you determine as you go through your use of force continuum that THIS PARTICULAR POTENTIAL RECIPIENT of this little jolt does not have an underlying condition making this more than a "less lethal" experience!
 

JoeSparky

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The current is actually high voltage low current displaced over a small area of skin causing muscle contractions. While a taser could kill someone with a weak heart, not from the shock but the stress, they do not shock the heart. Actually small shocks to the heart return the heart to normal rhythm. The 27th of this month I will be getting a taser placed under my chest with wires leading to my heart, to in case of abnormal rhythm to shock the heart back to normal. They will also be putting a pacemaker in at the same time, hopefully, depends on the size of my veins.

The doctor doing this is called a electrologist and I asked many questions having to do with shocks to the heart. The shock delivered is much like a taser, high voltage low current using tiny capacitors.

I'll research but I believe pepper spray has been fatal when used but very rare. A person with pepper food allergy is in deep doo doo if sprayed with pepper spray.

Ask your ELECTROLOGIST about the problems associated with receiving these LITTLE high voltage low amperage shocks to your heart at RANDOM parts of the normal cardiac electrical cycle.....

And just how does the deployer of any STUN GUN device make sure they are only delivering this shock at the known "safe" parts of this cycle?
 

MAC702

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So, not to get too far off subject.... JUST how do you determine as you go through your use of force continuum that THIS PARTICULAR POTENTIAL RECIPIENT of this little jolt does not have an underlying condition making this more than a "less lethal" experience!

To play devil's advocate, it is still "less lethal" than a bullet in the overall odds.
 

JoeSparky

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Actually that is not heart stopping, it does cause the blood to fail because the heart cannot contract to push blood to the body. A shock is what is used to return a heart to normal rhythm. To stop the heart for surgery they actually use the same drug used for lethal injection. Keep in mind that the doctor testifying is getting paid to testify, and trying to sell a book. A heart that is prone to racing is one that is below 35% refraction, and just about anything can set about the racing heart beat. The purpose of the defibrillator/pace maker is to deliver a shock when the heart does race. With a refraction below 35% there is a 15 to 20 percent chance of a fatal event within a year. The use of the defibrillator is to keep those with limitations alive.

It is very unlikely a taser would cause the heart to go into cardiac arrest on a person with normal refraction.

I do believe the word you want instead of "refraction" for this particular discussion is actually "ejection fraction" as in an EJECTION FRACTION of less than 35% is diagnostic for a diagnosis of HEART FAILURE. Those with heart failure are at increased risk for cardiac dysrhythmias and a significant risk for sudden cardiac death. The pacemaker/defibrillator is used to either stimulate the heart to beat or to control dysrhythmias that could otherwise be fatal.

As for the word "refraction" --- there is a portion of the NORMAL cardiac electrical cycle where the heart will not respond to an electrical stimulus known as "a refractory period". This is generally IMMEDIATELY AFTER the ventrilcles have contracted (QRS) but before the repolarization that occurs during the "T" wave on the ECG.There are also other portions where the heart is much more likely to go into potentially fatal dysrhythmias such as the R on T phenomenon.

And yes, the heart cannot effectively pump blood at heart rates typcally above 200 beats per min as there is not enough time for the blood to move from the atria into the ventricles. AS the heart ONLY gets the blood through the heart arteries during Diastole or while the heart is resting between beats with a very low blood pressure (heart cant fill with fast heart rates) the heart is doing a bunch of work without being fed. If protracted, this itself can lead to a heart attack or Myocardiac Infarction.


Yes, professionally, I do have just a little bit of experience here!
 

Primus

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So, not to get too far off subject.... JUST how do you determine as you go through your use of force continuum that THIS PARTICULAR POTENTIAL RECIPIENT of this little jolt does not have an underlying condition making this more than a "less lethal" experience!

You don't. No more then you know or worry if he has a shoulder problem when he's cuffed. Or if he has asthma when he's running away from you.

You don't ask... "sir is ok if I taste you? How are you feeling today? Have you been cleared to ride rolllar coasters?". You avoid having to use it. If the situation escalates to a level ghats it justified force then you use it.

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MAC702

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Point taken, but would also depend upon the caliber and portion of the body struck.....

Yes. So you could arm cops with .25 ACP's as "less lethal" firearms, also.

But what the cops are really after here is "less cleanup." They don't give a damn about you dying or not.

Interesting tangent, though: What is the hit/miss ratio of cops firing Tasers?
 
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Brace

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Colorado
Point taken, but would also depend upon the caliber and portion of the body struck.....

Just as the deadliness of a taser is seemingly contingent upon underlying medical problems, drug use, and portion of body struck. According to one source the lethality of handgun rounds is about 21/100, where the lethality of tasers seems to be at about 3/1000, although it's worth noting the former data is from empirical observation and the latter is from a highly controlled study, and exacerbating factors have been mentioned. It would be interesting to compare like data sets, but perhaps politically untenable to get them. Intuitively though, it also seems like fewer people survive police shootings than other forms of shooting.
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
Its not voltage but amperage that kills you. Our tasers are .0008 amps. Not lethal. A normal healthy person can take that hit and survive. If there are other medical complications then yes you can die. I took the hit as have pretty much all the guys who use them. In order to be an instructor (around here) you have to take a hit.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Isn't the double-speak entertaining?

A professional public-relations person attempting the same thing would have interposed at least two sentences between the contradictory ones.
 

Citizen

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"Less lethal" is the whole point. Just about any physicality during a seizure by a cop could result in death. Tasers are an option to avoid using guns or sticks, both of which can readily kill.


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<o>

Both of which are a lot less susceptible to abuse for "pain compliance" (cop-speak for electro-torture), too.

Also, nobody ever got shot because a cop mistook his gun for his truncheon or night-stick.
 

Primus

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Isn't the double-speak entertaining?

A professional public-relations person attempting the same thing would have interposed at least two sentences between the contradictory ones.

Would you consider a punch in the face lethal? Why no people have died from it. How about cars? Are they lethal objects? Why not people have died? I hope you get the point.

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EMNofSeattle

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S. Kitsap, Washington state
I suppose the real question is, out of all justifiable uses of various forms of less lethal weapons, are tasers especially dangerous? About 20 years ago cops carried a revolver and a Baton. Some carried tear gas or pepper sprays. I'm willing to bet that batons have far more fatalities associated with them (in fact I believe my sheriffs department says baton strikes above the shoulders are considered deadly force under policy and must be investigated as such)

Even empty hand strikes to the head or sternum can be deadly under circumstances, a boot strike on a grounded suspect reaching for a weapon can be deadly "beanbag" shot shells are known to cause deaths and also are expensive as most departments require beanbag shells only be deployed out of specially marked shotguns (with some going as far as to buy their beanbag shotguns in different gauges then patrol shotguns), I don't believe tasers are especially deadly compared to previous methods of compliance.

Any use of force applied against a human being has potential to be deadly.

Now wether or not tasers encourage officers to use that force more frequently then they would've used force before they had them, I don't know and that's a different discussion
 

georg jetson

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Calling a taser "less than lethal" is like calling a firearm "less than lethal". Not everybody dies from gunshot wounds just like not everybody dies from a taser attack. I'd call a taser a "less than messy" weapon. No blood unless the subject experiences trauma from the fall.

Tasers use high voltage to drive current through the body. They do it in a pulsing manner so we're talking about what is commonly known as "AC" or alternating current. The problem with assuming that they won't kill someone is that each person is different and also, the point of contact on the body matters, just like bullet placement matters.

Ohms Law tells us that the amount of current that flows through a conductor is proportional to the impedance of that conductor. What is the impedance of a human? How does that quantity differ from person to person. How much current will actually lead to death. Most electronic defense shock devices incorporate a current limiter. What if the subject can experience lethal results below the limiting threshold?

For sure I'd rather be tased than shot because if death doesn't occur, then recovery is quick. However, LEOs need to consider that, just like any other weapon, it's use needs to be considered in a serious manner. Death can result.
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Yes. So you could arm cops with .25 ACP's as "less lethal" firearms, also.

But what the cops are really after here is "less cleanup." They don't give a damn about you dying or not.

Interesting tangent, though: What is the hit/miss ratio of cops firing Tasers?

The taser hit / miss info will be suspect because it will come from someone compiling the numbers to support their need. [police department or Taser Int.]

I found an interesting statement regarding overall NY police marksmanship:

"Overall the NYPD usually requires about 331 rounds to hit 54 targets, of which 14 will be innocent bystanders, 24 will be dogs, and 16 will be people the NYPD was actually aiming at."

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/11/nypd-police-shootings-numbers-2012.html

Why would someone believe things would improve with a taser?
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Ask your ELECTROLOGIST about the problems associated with receiving these LITTLE high voltage low amperage shocks to your heart at RANDOM parts of the normal cardiac electrical cycle.....

And just how does the deployer of any STUN GUN device make sure they are only delivering this shock at the known "safe" parts of this cycle?

It doesn't appear that "safe" is a concern. Winning is. In the quest for dominance, a no holds barred mindset and belief that the blue line shall prevail is the mission statement of the warrior cop. They know there will be losses. But those too weak to take it don't die for naught: the weak that die serve as an example to the others to do as they are told.

We are told the taser is "a less lethal tool". That ignores that tasers are used like cattle prods to get cattle into a chute. A "less lethal tool" used when no lethal tool is required:

[video=youtube;DtG-KZJ_luY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtG-KZJ_luY[/video]
 
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davidmcbeth

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earth's crust
Its not voltage but amperage that kills you. Our tasers are .0008 amps. Not lethal. A normal healthy person can take that hit and survive. If there are other medical complications then yes you can die. I took the hit as have pretty much all the guys who use them. In order to be an instructor (around here) you have to take a hit.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

And a person with a normal brain would understand why that statement is so wrong ... just saying
 
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