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Thread: Sorta Win for Some PA Residents--Report of CCd Gun Alone Not RAS

  1. #1
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    Nov 2006
    Fairfax Co., VA

    Sorta Win for Some PA Residents--Report of CCd Gun Alone Not RAS

    A federal court has ruled in a case that since PA issues CCW permits, a tip of a CCd gun is not enough by itself to establish RAS.

    Check out the particulars below. And, note well that the court declared the opinion non-precedential.

    The link directly opens a .pdf of the opinion.

    United States v. Garvin,

    I found it here:

    I said it was a win for some PA residents because it was the federal court for the Eastern District of PA. I said it was a sorta win because the judges made it non-precedential, which I take to mean its not binding on lower courts.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-27-2013 at 02:14 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Nov 2010

    It was a tip, not a tip!

    The "tip" referred to in the decision was a telephoned report of a man with a gun. It was an informational "tip." I thought you were referring to the muzzle of a concealed gun being shown accidentally and leading to a MWAG call. The cops checked out the call, saw a guy change his directione of travel away from the cops and try to get into a house. The court said none these, (the call, the change of direction and the sudden desire to visit a home) were enough to justify a Terry stop and a search but, taken together, they were. The lesson to learn is not to give reason any reason to think there is "a crime afoot." There is really nothing new here.

  3. #3
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    May 2006
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Edited thread title to replace the word "tip" with the word "report" to be more accurate.
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  4. #4
    Regular Member
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    Jun 2013
    Ffld co.
    It's a finer point and ultimately not all that helpful, IMHO.

    The police received an MWAG call. The fact that they responded to what should be presumed to be a "report of lawful behavior" is where things went off the rails. The court paid lip service...then turned around and used the defendant's flight upon seeing officers to backwards-justify the stop and to afford reliability and criminality where they was no presumptive criminality.

    They basically drove the bus past the bus stop, then backed over it, killing the waiting passengers...instead of stopping at the stop.

    When the cops drive down your block...the fact that you take off running doesn't mean a thing...whether you're carrying a gun or a cup of coffee. Maybe you're mentally ill and think they're coming for you, maybe you're out for a jog, maybe you're late for a doctor's appointment. It's not criminal.

    They need a report of unlawful behavior, coupled with a description, in order to start building RAS/PC. "He saw me and ran" doesn't remove a person's 4A rights.

    There's no totality of the circumstances here...the decision isn't awesome.

    I realize I am talking about a perfect world with strong 4A rights...which is definitely NOT philly. In essence, possession of a gun in philly is "presumptively criminal" and this decision strengthens this presumption.
    Last edited by CT Barfly; 12-28-2013 at 10:42 AM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
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    Oct 2006
    , Louisiana, USA
    Florida v J.L. "anonymous tips have no predictive value relative to firearms" (paraphrased). if the person making the "tip" will/does not make a sworn statement--then the tip is useless for purposes of law enforcement.

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