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An officer's duty to care for and protect people

Reasonable

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Cops or cop supporters arguing with Anti cop or non supporters.

Why is this thread even alive ?

Some got the balls to do the job. Some don't.

Who cares?
the end.

Nothing about guns. Lock thread.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Somehow it gets interpreted "no duty means they won't". That's utter bs. As I've kept saying. The real deal is that guys still go and help. Period.
Oh? Who said that? When did they say it?
Gif with less than SFW language

Your department requiring you to answer every call doesn't mean anything to do with responsibility to protect any individual. It means you have to go where they tell you and do what they tell you. That's No Different than any other job anyone has ever had.
 
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stealthyeliminator

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One of the more frequently cited court cases, which is also one of the most frequently misunderstood and misapplied cases in this forum is the SCOTUS case establishing that a peace officer has no duty to protect any individual.

Especially for the anti-cop bigot (a bigot always presupposes the worst in regards to the LEO, in any case involving law enforcement), it offers an easy way to disclaim instances or even the very existence of heroic officers, and their heroic actions, by falsely claiming - cops don't help the individual, cops don't put themselves in danger to help people, bla bla which is an erroneous conclusion about the case.

All the case says is that

1) under the federal constitution
2) a cop has no DUTY to protect an INDIVIDUAL (he, his dept. do have one to society as a whole)
3) unless a special relationship exists (usually but not always through the cop's own making e.g arrest) that mandates he do so

(1) doesn't address that cops, depending on position, agency, locale, etc. may have duties imposed by State Constututions, State Statute, Case law, Dept. Oath, Dept. General Orders Manual, Dept. Procedures manual, and of course the cop's own personal code of morals and honor.

Have I seen an officer disciplined or terminated for failure to protect? Absolutely. The most obvious case was an officer who was one of three officers dispatched to a wild fight. This officer told dispatch that they were responding "code 2" as is the general code response for incidents involving threat of harm to persons, and in some cases, property. It means lights and sirens to help get through intersections and slow traffic, explicitly authorized to travel over the speed limit given that the driver must still exercise due care and must limit his speed based on road conditions, daylight or night (night vision much worse than day vision and distance acuity etc etc deleteriously affected at night vs. day, and that authorization pretty much MANDATES speed above the speed limit in most cases and in pretty much all cases where there is no obstructive traffic and it is not a residential zone.

An officer who was enroute, lights and siren, caught a glimpse of that ofc's patrol car parked in an alley, almost invisible from view (which reinforced a suspicion that they were purposefully hiding from view, iow KNEw it was wrong to wait there), and of course when the other 2 officers arrived pretty quickly, the third officer was nowhere in sight, and actually didn't arrive until after the responding officers broadcast a "code 4" (scene under control and no obvious apparent dangers to public or officers) and had detained a few in handcuffs. fwiw, those in handcuffs were released when further investigation revealed NO pc for a crime (fighting in public fwiw is not illegal under the RCW - and it aint assault if it's mutual combat - but of course the fact that they were engaged in physical combat DID authorize a detention under the CC exception and others even well short of PC)

The officer reported to his sgt. that he had seen the deputy parked at the given location, in an alley, appearing to be stationary, and no lights or siren on, and that that location was pretty close to the scene and yet the officer was the last to arrive by a significant margin

Iow, Cowardice

That's a serious firable offense, and probably one of the two most severe in my agency - dishonesty being the other. I've seen cops canned for all sorts of dishonesty, even very "minor" examples in very minor investigations where they may have only faced a written warning at worse, but because they lied - terminated.

Furthermore, checks of the CAD revealed the officer was responding from a location much closer than the other 2, which makes it very suspect that they were the last there, etc.

The officer was questioned, and made the decision to be truthful, a lie being instant termination if it could be proven as such and said that they had delayed response because they didn't want to get in a physical altercation involving some large (Parties involved were pacific islanders), presumably intoxicated (happene3d outside a bar) individuals.

fired

and the union would not even authorize appeal to arbitration, that being a good example ot counter claims that the union always supports accusedand terminated officers. FAR FAR FAR FAR from the case, at least with my union

and good ******* riddance. I don't want to work with a coward. ever. Officer safety is not cowardice. What this officer did wasn't officer safety, it was cowardice

gone.

the cited case here shows a case of substantial civil liability where an officer did not respond with a "ordinary standard of care" in offering specific help - getting the reponsdent away from the scene, among others. and this requirement was NOT required by legislation (read the case ), but existed anyway as an element of requirements for peace officers.

iow, the case showed one (of countless) examples where an officer WAS mandated to help an individual, in this case help a petitioner stay safe,. even where the respondent was not accused of any crime at that point, based on the information the officer SHOULD have known, it clearly required him to remove the respondwent and arrest if the respondent refused, for obstruction at a minimum

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2013/10/17/2842540/wa-supreme-court-upholds-judgment.html

I *totally* agree with the decision of the court and imo, firing the officer would be warranted.


and course IN ADDITION to the duties IMPOSED on officers externally, there is the fact that many officers will still protect and do so in many cases in ways that places them in danger of assault, or in one of my cases, resulted in pretty severe smoke inhalation injury

whether because of their moral code, or duties imposed under any of hte above bodies (dept, state law ,e tc.)

Countless stories of bravey exist. I have seen TONS firsthand and read about many others.


A recent one was an assaultive suicidal female who had assaulted a domestic partner with a knife, cut herself, and then run outside. she was standing by the open door of her car, wearing heavy winter clothes (rendering a taser unlikely to be successful) and i could see her hands were empty, but one of my partners could see a large hunting knife seated on the vehicles seat a lunge distance away (she was standing in the open door space_), that she had used to assault her partner and herself and had then dropped down there.

She refused to step away from the car, even upon threat of taser and if we waited for her and she decided to reacquire the knife, very possibly a shooting could have happened.

an officer bolted in out of nowhere (great start strength! and explosive strength. officer had a very good clean and jerk total so had those attributes), tackled the woman before she could even react, and got her into handcuffs. NO injuries even

not an atypical event at all. they never make the paper. I actually get pissed off that our PIO DOES NOT usually release such cases,a dn in most cases wont know about them unless the sgt sends it to him

I *know* from countless examples thaat many (not all) cops go to great lengths to protect people.

the court case does not in ANY WAY "prove" they don't. it doesn't even speak to what officers DO. Only speaks to what they are constututionally required to do

hth

I read it, PALO. Every ******* word. Wasn't worth it. Sorry to say. It seems to me that you got your feelings hurt over what hasn't been said.

it doesn't even speak to what officers DO. Only speaks to what they are constututionally required to do

This is all. This is it. Period. I haven't seen anything to the contrary stated here. Perhaps I've missed it... But I doubt it.

Some cops do good deeds, even great ones. Many actions of police officers could certainly even be called heroic. Not because they are police, but because of specifically what they do, and to the extent that they do it, in a particular situation. I haven't seen anything to the contrary stated on these forums, much less have I seen the court case in question used as a cite for such statements.

PALO, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God comes to mind here. All people do bad things. That doesn't necessarily negate any good that they do - I feel like you have the impression that's what people are trying to say. On the other hand, though, the good they do doesn't negate the bad, and they should still always be held responsible.

As far as whether or not cops have a duty to protect - it doesn't really matter. As has been stated, it would be foolish to neglect personal responsibility for oneself and one's own safety.
 
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eye95

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I have skipped reading much of this "train wreck." (One has to wonder what is going on in the mind of a certain poster who usually labels these "train wrecks," but for some reason, is choosing to let this one go.)

However, let me point out that the cops in the thread are the ones endeavoring to be rational and make their points. Those who disagree are resorting to emotion and personal attack. I would tend to come down on their side on the issue, but am embarrassed by their behavior. So I am staying out of this "discussion" except for this plea to dismantle their arguments or, once that has been done, just let them have the last word.

Folks reading this thread, trying to make up their minds, will naturally gravitate to the rational argument, and away from the schoolyard stuff.
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Sounds like the cop in PALO's example got fired for not backing up other cops.

Seems incidents like this "example" may be more common than we are led to believe.


http://www.mprnews.org/story/2012/12/21/news/tom-decker-investigation-first-moments

"Greg Reiter, the officer who accompanied Decker to the bar, saw his wounded colleague lying on the ground and watched the suspect walk away. Reiter put his squad car into reverse and exited the parking lot."

Greg Reiter's whereabouts for the approximate half hour following the shooting have not been made available. The dead officer was discovered by a bartender taking out trash to a dumpster. Transcripts of her 911 call were published. Reiter was never identified as a suspect. He was on paid leave for a month before he resigned and slipped into obscurity.

http://www.kare11.com/news/article/1008677/396/Partner-of-slain-Cold-Spring-police-officer-resigns

The media seems to cooperate in keeping incidents like this "under wraps". I can't find any case studies of police officer cowardice, however, the fact that incidents like the above occur, that would indicate there is a percentage of police officers that will react cowardly. Couple that with no constitutional duty, no statutory duty and no case law duty to protect anyone that police don't have a custodial relationship with, and it's pretty safe to say police have no duty to protect the individual from anything. You can't order a cop into a burning building to retrieve someone trapped. You can try. Good luck on prosecuting him.

It appears most training emphasis is on establishing dominance and control rather than life saving, dynamic rescue or "protection". Police presence provides some deterrence factor, which is about the limit of their "duty to protect".
 
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77zach

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And dont worry guys. Its ok if you hate us or thing we are thugs or think we should he unarmed or think we shouldn't have tasers. Its ok you think we are just the enemy from state there to violate your rights or just guys bullied in high school.



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Thug,

My privilege card from Fl is no good in Massachusetts. What would you do if you saw me open carrying in your fascist, freezing state?
 

Superlite27

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However, let me point out that the cops in the thread are the ones endeavoring to be rational and make their points. Those who disagree are resorting to emotion and personal attack.

You've got to be kidding, right? Bias much, do we?

I keep reading, and re-reading Citizen's post #40. Somehow, I can't see the emotional investment and indignant outrage I've read in many posts from the officers here. It seems like a pretty detached, straightforward, logical argument. As evidence, I simply point out the indignation and strawman offered up in the OP. The mere fact that it was posted, without solicitation, to refute an argument that wasn't even offered in the first place goes a long, long way to provide evidence of emotional "butt-hurt". After all, who takes the time to tap out a wall of text right out of the gate to purposefully argue against an argument they, themselves, have to introduce in order to refute? That speaks volumes for the emotion you accuse those simply illustrating the strawman of having.

We must be reading different threads, or you are merely projecting.
 

Primus

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You've got to be kidding, right? Bias much, do we?

I keep reading, and re-reading Citizen's post #40. Somehow, I can't see the emotional investment and indignant outrage I've read in many posts from the officers here. It seems like a pretty detached, straightforward, logical argument. As evidence, I simply point out the indignation and strawman offered up in the OP. The mere fact that it was posted, without solicitation, to refute an argument that wasn't even offered in the first place goes a long, long way to provide evidence of emotional "butt-hurt". After all, who takes the time to tap out a wall of text right out of the gate to purposefully argue against an argument they, themselves, have to introduce in order to refute? That speaks volumes for the emotion you accuse those simply illustrating the strawman of having.

We must be reading different threads, or you are merely projecting.

Superlite, to be fair. This discussion was started in a different thread. In that thread it was brought by someone "cops won't save you they don't have to' or words to that effect. I immediately responded and deviated that we will and do go to evey call. In that thread I even posted my dept. Regs that defined our duty to respond and aid citizens on and off duty. I conceded that there is no constitutional duty to respond (I guess) and that there is case law stating this. I also stated that you can have all the case law you want because I will still show up every time because there is a inherent duty to your population. Period.

This thread is a bleed over. So the "straw man" thing is merely taking the larger conversation and only focusing on this exact thread. You know instead of actually refuting it.

So again... yes this thread does NOT have a guy STARTING the "you won't respond". Its in the other thread and this is a bleed over. I'll post the link when I get to a computer.

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WalkingWolf

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Superlite, to be fair. This discussion was started in a different thread. In that thread it was brought by someone "cops won't save you they don't have to' or words to that effect. I immediately responded and deviated that we will and do go to evey call. In that thread I even posted my dept. Regs that defined our duty to respond and aid citizens on and off duty. I conceded that there is no constitutional duty to respond (I guess) and that there is case law stating this. I also stated that you can have all the case law you want because I will still show up every time because there is a inherent duty to your population. Period.

This thread is a bleed over. So the "straw man" thing is merely taking the larger conversation and only focusing on this exact thread. You know instead of actually refuting it.

So again... yes this thread does NOT have a guy STARTING the "you won't respond". Its in the other thread and this is a bleed over. I'll post the link when I get to a computer.

[video=youtube;rsPa8QgGGkc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsPa8QgGGkc[/video]

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Wow you must be a very busy person! How do you find time in the day to be at every crime, protect every person, a regular super hero, and still have the time to come here to tell us about it. Inquiring minds really want to know.
 
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wimwag

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Superlite, to be fair. This discussion was started in a different thread. In that thread it was brought by someone "cops won't save you they don't have to' or words to that effect. I immediately responded and deviated that we will and do go to evey call. In that thread I even posted my dept. Regs that defined our duty to respond and aid citizens on and off duty. I conceded that there is no constitutional duty to respond (I guess) and that there is case law stating this. I also stated that you can have all the case law you want because I will still show up every time because there is a inherent duty to your population. Period.

This thread is a bleed over. So the "straw man" thing is merely taking the larger conversation and only focusing on this exact thread. You know instead of actually refuting it.

So again... yes this thread does NOT have a guy STARTING the "you won't respond". Its in the other thread and this is a bleed over. I'll post the link when I get to a computer.

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So when the cops are sitting in my neighbors parking lot stealing her WiFi (because my SSID is no longer broadcast) for 6 hours every night, is this what they are up to? I would love nothing more to go and ask them but in the past they lied and claim to be perpetually busy. So...care to enlighten me Primus? What is it that cops do on those laptops all night?
 

sudden valley gunner

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So when the cops are sitting in my neighbors parking lot stealing her WiFi (because my SSID is no longer broadcast) for 6 hours every night, is this what they are up to? I would love nothing more to go and ask them but in the past they lied and claim to be perpetually busy. So...care to enlighten me Primus? What is it that cops do on those laptops all night?

She should password protect her wi-fi and name it something provocative like "quit sitting in your cop car stealing my internet". Or why doesn't she login to her router and track what the cops is surfing?

I was working on apartments in Ferndale and the cops Wi-fi would show up on my phone being the station was next door. I was thinking it would be funny if everyone in the neighborhood named their wifi the same as the police stations.....:lol:
 

Primus

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So when the cops are sitting in my neighbors parking lot stealing her WiFi (because my SSID is no longer broadcast) for 6 hours every night, is this what they are up to? I would love nothing more to go and ask them but in the past they lied and claim to be perpetually busy. So...care to enlighten me Primus? What is it that cops do on those laptops all night?

Wimwam I can't "enlighten" you on what chips are doing at 3 am in your town. They are probably shamming.

And how does this relate to the fact the go to calls? I'm missing the connection between me saying I go to my calls and help people.... and you talking about cops shamming in the middle of the night. Relevance please?

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Primus

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Wow you must be a very busy person! How do you find time in the day to be at every crime, protect every person, a regular super hero, and still have the time to come here to tell us about it. Inquiring minds really want to know.

I don't know... same way you found time to go enforce interpol warrants in international waters while being a reserve deputy game warden or something.

I don't know what kind of fancy argument this is but your assigning a bunch of things I never said I did. No one ever mentioned every crime no one said every person and no one certainly said superhero. Someone call it fallacy I call it a**hattery.

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WalkingWolf

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I don't know... same way you found time to go enforce interpol warrants in international waters while being a reserve deputy game warden or something.

I don't know what kind of fancy argument this is but your assigning a bunch of things I never said I did. No one ever mentioned every crime no one said every person and no one certainly said superhero. Someone call it fallacy I call it a**hattery.

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Actually I did not make those claims, you sir are a bald face liar. You did make the claim I called you out on though.
 

Primus

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Actually I did not make those claims, you sir are a bald face liar. You did make the claim I called you out on though.

I said I will "still show up every time". As in everytinr I get dispatched somewhere. You my friend try a little too hard to make me look bad. I can look like an idiot all on my own. Don't need to inserting meaning into posts for me.

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WalkingWolf

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(snip) I will still show up every time because there is a inherent duty to your population. Period.



I said I will "still show up every time". As in everytinr I get dispatched somewhere. You my friend try a little too hard to make me look bad. I can look like an idiot all on my own. Don't need to inserting meaning into posts for me.

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:lol::lol::lol:
 
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