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Thread: Must show id when ask

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    Must show id when ask

    As a former LEO ,I think it is stupid,to challenge police about your right to show id, when doing OC, how do they know if you have a current restraining order ,or dv , out on you , they do not, how do they know that your mentally stable,they don't , how do they know if you are a felon,they don't it was my job to protect and serve , protect the people in my area and serve the people of my town, so yes I will ask for an ID, if you refuse the I now have ras to believe, you my be hiding something which, now gives me PC, for a investigator stop, ask for your ID , helps you promote are cause not hurt it,cooperate with local LEO, it just the smart thing to do.

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    Even smarter still, a policeman should not ask.

    I tear police a new one when they ask me ...

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txtim49 View Post
    As a former LEO ,I think it is stupid,to challenge police about your right to show id, when doing OC, how do they know if you have a current restraining order ,or dv , out on you , they do not, how do they know that your mentally stable,they don't , how do they know if you are a felon,they don't it was my job to protect and serve , protect the people in my area and serve the people of my town, so yes I will ask for an ID, if you refuse the I now have ras to believe, you my be hiding something which, now gives me PC, for a investigator stop, ask for your ID , helps you promote are cause not hurt it,cooperate with local LEO, it just the smart thing to do.
    So, former LEO, you believe that it's stupid to stand up for one's Constitutional Rights? When you took your Oath of office, did you not swear to "protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic?" Which of our other rights besides unlawful search and seizure do you believe you can just ignore?

    When you were a LEO, how did you know that every driver had a license? Did you stop every car to find out if they were driving legally?

    Your thinking that refusal to provide ID when none is required by law gives you RAS is probably why you're a *former* LEO. That, and your inability to write coherently. I can only imagine what your FI notes must have looked like...

    Basically, I am very happy that you are a *former* LEO.
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    Le sigh.

    And police wonder why we don't like them.

    I wonder if any of our resident cops are going to refute this bul! $hit .

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    Le sigh.

    And police wonder why we don't like them.

    I wonder if any of our resident cops are going to refute this bul! $hit .
    If they're residents, why do they act like insurgents or Moonie Missionaries?
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    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    suppission

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    If they're residents, why do they act like insurgents or Moonie Missionaries?
    With that kind of attitude how did you ever get any thing done? Imagine this scenario. Just started work saw a citizen doing nothing wrong, stop them and check their papers. Saw another citizen doing nothing wrong stopped them and checked their papers and so on and so on. Worked a full shift and never made it out of the parking lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txtim49 View Post
    (A) As a former LEO ,I think it is stupid,to challenge police about your right to show id, when doing OC, (B) how do they know if you have a current restraining order ,or dv , out on you , they do not, how do they know that your mentally stable,they don't , how do they know if you are a felon,they don't (C) it was my job to protect and serve , protect the people in my area and serve the people of my town, (D) so yes I will ask for an ID, if you refuse the I (E) now have ras to believe, you my be hiding something which, now gives me PC, for a investigator stop, ask for your ID , helps you promote are cause not hurt it,cooperate with local LEO, it just the smart thing to do.
    (A) I think it is stupid that you think it is stupid. Your turn. Or we can have an adult discussion.

    (B) You don't have a need to know a damned thing about me--until you have developed RAS that I am committing, have committed, or am about to commit a crime.

    (C) Your job is NOT to protect and to serve. That is a slogan and demonstrably NOT true. Your job, constitutionally, should be to react to crime and to only get proactive when you have PC or RAS of a crime. Until then, leave us the **** alone!

    (D) And, yes, I will refuse to show it. You can try to force it from me, but ask the City of Riverside, OH how that worked out for them when they "stole" Roy Call's ID. YOU are the one breaking the law when you demand an ID, so get off your high horse!

    (E) NO! YOU DON'T!!! You might want to check with your department's legal counsel on that one. Refusal to stand up for one's right canNOT be used to develop RAS. PERIOD.

    Learn the law, buddy, especially if you have taken on a job to enforce it and sworn to uphold the Constitution!

    Just try your crap with me, like some officers in Montgomery AL did. The deputy chief and the city attorney BOTH apologized to me in reply to my constant refrain of "I don't want to sue, but..." Montgomery officers were all retrained and new recruit training was updated to to include the fact that officers may not stop a carrier merely because he is carrying. Just try to pull your crap with me, I may not beat your ride, but I will beat the rap, and your department and you, personally, will not beat my lawsuit.

    It's cops like you that turn many of the members here (not me, BTW) into unmitigated and unapologetic cop-haters. I will say that I hate the kind of cop you represent yourself to be! I hope some of the other cops that post here take you to task for your authoritarian power trip! Until I commit a crime, you have zero power over me. If you try to exercise that power unlawfully, YOU are the criminal!

    Folks, can you tell that I am pissed?

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Birdman View Post
    With that kind of attitude how did you ever get any thing done? Imagine this scenario. Just started work saw a citizen doing nothing wrong, stop them and check their papers. Saw another citizen doing nothing wrong stopped them and checked their papers and so on and so on. Worked a full shift and never made it out of the parking lot.
    Sir. You have made an error in judgement if you think I am affiliated in any way with police. Or a supporter of anything less than complete respect for the LAC by the agents of the government. My tongue-in-cheek post was inquiring WHY cops here act like insurgents or are as hard to reason with as a Moonie missionary. I think it's one of those "if I gotta 'splain, you wouldn't understand things....."
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
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    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

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    Red face Mr Fuller

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    Sir. You have made an error in judgement if you think I am affiliated in any way with police. Or a supporter of anything less than complete respect for the LAC by the agents of the government. My tongue-in-cheek post was inquiring WHY cops here act like insurgents or are as hard to reason with as a Moonie missionary. I think it's one of those "if I gotta 'splain, you wouldn't understand things....."
    I am sorry I did not mean to reply to your post I simply hit the wrong button I meant to respond to the original poster. Once again I am sorry for the confusion.

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Birdman View Post
    I am sorry I did not mean to reply to your post I simply hit the wrong button I meant to respond to the original poster. Once again I am sorry for the confusion.
    No problem. Just didn't want ya to waste ammo. Now, go git'm while there's still some flesh left. :}
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
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    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    First off, let me extend a warm welcome to one of the best forums on the net where everyone is free to share their knowledge and experience.

    Second, there is literally Nothing right in what you just said, I'm sorry if that gets you all butthurt and makes you never come back, but that will be up to you.

    1) I don't have a "right to show ID". I have a right NOT to show it.
    2) "How do I know you aren't ....." is NOT the same thing as "I can reasonably suspect you are ...."
    3) Refusing to show identification, isn't an articulable suspicion of anything except that someone doesn't want to show identification.
    4) Probable cause is necessary for an arrest not to investigate a suspicion.
    5) You can ask for ID all you want, and I can say "No" as often as necessary.
    6) You being a former LEO, ... was probably the smart thing for for you to do.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 12-21-2013 at 06:53 PM.

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    I think it's fair to say this guy won't be back. If he *isn't* a drive by provocateur, then he will slink back to the corner he came from, indignant at his inability to defend his position.

    That said, we shouldn't let such an opportunity for new readers go to waste >

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Considering the post was one long, run-on, wall-of-text paragraph...

    I'm not sure if were
    a) being trolled,
    b) presented with someone who had a little too much Christmas eggnog (but not so much that they couldn't spell-check),
    or
    c) presented with proof that not even a GED is required to become a law enforcement officer.



    Maybe we should check Officer.com and PoliceOne to see if any of their flock got lost?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 12-21-2013 at 07:10 PM.

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    Perhaps all of the above? *wicked grin*

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Considering the post was one long, run-on, wall-of-text paragraph...

    I'm not sure if were
    a) being trolled,
    b) presented with someone who had a little too much Christmas eggnog (but not so much that they couldn't spell-check),
    or
    c) presented with proof that not even a GED is required to become a law enforcement officer.



    Maybe we should check Officer.com and PoliceOne to see if any of their flock got lost?
    Or to see if they have a "yuk-yuk" thread going on again.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    (A) I think it is stupid that you think it is stupid. Your turn. Or we can have an adult discussion.

    (B) You don't have a need to know a damned thing about me--until you have developed RAS that I am committing, have committed, or am about to commit a crime.

    (C) Your job is NOT to protect and to serve. That is a slogan and demonstrably NOT true. Your job, constitutionally, should be to react to crime and to only get proactive when you have PC or RAS of a crime. Until then, leave us the **** alone!

    (D) And, yes, I will refuse to show it. You can try to force it from me, but ask the City of Riverside, OH how that worked out for them when they "stole" Roy Call's ID. YOU are the one breaking the law when you demand an ID, so get off your high horse!

    (E) NO! YOU DON'T!!! You might want to check with your department's legal counsel on that one. Refusal to stand up for one's right canNOT be used to develop RAS. PERIOD.

    Learn the law, buddy, especially if you have taken on a job to enforce it and sworn to uphold the Constitution!

    Just try your crap with me, like some officers in Montgomery AL did. The deputy chief and the city attorney BOTH apologized to me in reply to my constant refrain of "I don't want to sue, but..." Montgomery officers were all retrained and new recruit training was updated to to include the fact that officers may not stop a carrier merely because he is carrying. Just try to pull your crap with me, I may not beat your ride, but I will beat the rap, and your department and you, personally, will not beat my lawsuit.

    It's cops like you that turn many of the members here (not me, BTW) into unmitigated and unapologetic cop-haters. I will say that I hate the kind of cop you represent yourself to be! I hope some of the other cops that post here take you to task for your authoritarian power trip! Until I commit a crime, you have zero power over me. If you try to exercise that power unlawfully, YOU are the criminal!

    Folks, can you tell that I am pissed?

    eye95,

    How very well said !!!

    This former cop claimed that he "will ask for an ID, (and) if you refuse the (he) now has ras..."

    Sorry cop but you are DEAD WRONG. Refusing to provide ID does NOT give you RAS.

    Apparently yopu are ignorant of case law.

    In People v. Loudermilk, 241 Cal. Rptr. 208 (1987) it was ruled that "We must emphasize that we do not hold that a suspect may be detained and searched merely because he either refused to identify himself or refused to produce proof of indentification"

    Also, in U.S. v. Brown it was ruled that, "The defendents' refusal to furnish identification -- which they were entitled to do... [in] a Terry Sstop..."

    Sir, you are (were) a disgrace to the badge and the profession if you think that refusal to produce ID gives you RAS.

    RAS is based on things like concealment, flight at the sight of officers, unusual movements, abandonment of property, casing a place, disguises, presence at a crime scene, information from a reliable informant, etc. Legally refusing to ID does NOT constitute RAS.

    I want to ask you, if a "suspect" does give you their ID and you run their firearm's serial number, then doesn't that mean that the guin is then effectively registered? JUST WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD A LEGAL OPEN CARRIER WANT TO HAVE THEIR GUN REGISTERED just because some ignorant cop thinks refusal ti ID guives him RAS ???

    I look forward to your reply.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Even I'm just shaking my head at this thread.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by txtim49 View Post
    As a former LEO ,I think it is stupid,to challenge police about your right to show id, when doing OC, how do they know if you have a current restraining order ,or dv , out on you , they do not, how do they know that your mentally stable,they don't , how do they know if you are a felon,they don't it was my job to protect and serve , protect the people in my area and serve the people of my town, so yes I will ask for an ID, if you refuse the I now have ras to believe, you my be hiding something which, now gives me PC, for a investigator stop, ask for your ID , helps you promote are cause not hurt it,cooperate with local LEO, it just the smart thing to do.
    Something doesn't make sense here. (Well, a number of things, actually.)

    He's got his past and future tenses contradicting themselves. Txtim49 is a former LEO who will ask for an ID. !?!?!


    Separately, what kind of cop makes a consensual request (ask for ID) into grounds for a seizure? What he's really saying is that his request for an identity document is effectively compulsory. According to him, if you don't consent to show an identity document during this consensual encounter, he's going to seize you. Absurd. Brown v Texas made it clear a cop has to first have RAS before he can compel identity, and that was in a state with a stop-and-identify statute.

    He must have served on the Red Queen's Privy Council. "Sentence first, verdict after."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    (A) I think it is stupid that you think it is stupid. Your turn. Or we can have an adult discussion.

    (B) You don't have a need to know a damned thing about me--until you have developed RAS that I am committing, have committed, or am about to commit a crime.

    (C) Your job is NOT to protect and to serve. That is a slogan and demonstrably NOT true. Your job, constitutionally, should be to react to crime and to only get proactive when you have PC or RAS of a crime. Until then, leave us the **** alone!

    (D) And, yes, I will refuse to show it. You can try to force it from me, but ask the City of Riverside, OH how that worked out for them when they "stole" Roy Call's ID. YOU are the one breaking the law when you demand an ID, so get off your high horse!

    (E) NO! YOU DON'T!!! You might want to check with your department's legal counsel on that one. Refusal to stand up for one's right canNOT be used to develop RAS. PERIOD.

    Learn the law, buddy, especially if you have taken on a job to enforce it and sworn to uphold the Constitution!

    Just try your crap with me, like some officers in Montgomery AL did. The deputy chief and the city attorney BOTH apologized to me in reply to my constant refrain of "I don't want to sue, but..." Montgomery officers were all retrained and new recruit training was updated to to include the fact that officers may not stop a carrier merely because he is carrying. Just try to pull your crap with me, I may not beat your ride, but I will beat the rap, and your department and you, personally, will not beat my lawsuit.

    It's cops like you that turn many of the members here (not me, BTW) into unmitigated and unapologetic cop-haters. I will say that I hate the kind of cop you represent yourself to be! I hope some of the other cops that post here take you to task for your authoritarian power trip! Until I commit a crime, you have zero power over me. If you try to exercise that power unlawfully, YOU are the criminal!

    Folks, can you tell that I am pissed?
    I am still in shock that he posted that steaming pile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I am still in shock that he posted that steaming pile.
    If he was a former LEO, I see two main options.

    First, he really did believe that nonsense. Which makes one then wonder, how many times did he illegally seize someone? He couldn't have gotten away with those that went to court. So, besides routinely applying law that didn't exist, in order to make it stick for those that went to court, he must have...(reader gets to finish the sentence for himself. I ain't sayin' it.)

    Second option. He knows better but thought he was posting to a bunch of sheep/rubes. He certainly didn't read a lot of threads, nor deeply into the thread(s) he did see. If this option was the case, he flew off the handle too quick.


    I just can't see this working out well for him.
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-21-2013 at 10:35 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin
    In People v. Loudermilk, 241 Cal. Rptr. 208 (1987) it was ruled that "We must emphasize that we do not hold that a suspect may be detained and searched merely because he either refused to identify himself or refused to produce proof of indentification".
    Could you give more of a reference for this case please?
    It looks like it could be useful & I'd like to add it to my blog page of useful quotes & court decisions.
    What court was it? (What state, circuit, district, or was it SCOTUS?)
    Does "241 Cal. Rptr." mean it was in CA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    He's got his past and future tenses contradicting themselves.
    Txtim49 is a former LEO who will ask for an ID.
    According to him, if you don't consent to show an identity document during this consensual encounter, he's going to seize you.
    He can ask all he wants, just like any other citizen.
    And just like any other citizen, if he seizes someone because they choose to maintain their privacy, that person can fight back to the extent necessary to stop the illegal interference.
    Touching someone without their consent is battery.
    Have fun not being immune from lawsuits.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by txtim49 View Post
    As a former LEO ,I think it is stupid,to challenge police about your right to show id, when doing OC, how do they know if you have a current restraining order ,or dv , out on you , they do not, how do they know that your mentally stable,they don't , how do they know if you are a felon,they don't it was my job to protect and serve , protect the people in my area and serve the people of my town, so yes I will ask for an ID, if you refuse the I now have ras to believe, you my be hiding something which, now gives me PC, for a investigator stop, ask for your ID , helps you promote are cause not hurt it,cooperate with local LEO, it just the smart thing to do.
    Wow. I am so glad you have the word "former" to go along with "LEO". Your knowledge of the law is abysmal.

    Hopefully you're just trolling to get a rise out of folks. If so, you've picked a good place to do it because the folks here are going to have a ball with you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    SNIP He can ask [for ID] all he wants, just like any other citizen.
    And just like any other citizen, if he seizes someone because they choose to maintain their privacy, that person can fight back to the extent necessary to stop the illegal interference.
    Before offering any physical resistance to an illegitimate temporary seizure, a citizen should check his state law. In VA, the state Court of Appeals has ruled* there is no right to resist an illegal Terry Stop/detention/detainment.** If the reader's state has a similar law, striking an officer, even accidentally while trying to squirm away, could get you convicted for assaulting a police officer.



    *For a while now, I've been citing this case as Christian v Commonwealth. But recently another poster couldn't find the case under that name on the Ct of Appls website, so I'm not so sure anymore. Since this post is a plea/strong recommendation to first check state law in the reader's state, rather than a debate rebuttal, I'll leave the cite for the moment unless someone demands I pull it.


    **Whatever the name of the case, the court rationalized that the existing right to resist false arrest did not extend to Terry Stops. So, as far as I know Virginians still have a right to resist false arrest.
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-26-2013 at 10:30 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Before offering any physical resistance to an illegitimate temporary seizure, a citizen should check his state law. In VA, the state Court of Appeals has ruled* there is no right to resist an illegal Terry Stop/detention/detainment.** If the reader's state has a similar law, striking an officer, even accidentally while trying to squirm away, could get you convicted for assaulting a police officer.



    *For a while now, I've been citing this case as Christian v Commonwealth. But recently another poster couldn't find the case under that name on the Ct of Appls website, so I'm not so sure anymore. Since this post is a plea/strong recommendation to first check state law in the reader's state, rather than a debate rebuttal, I'll leave the cite for the moment unless someone demands I pull it.


    **Whatever the name of the case, the court rationalized that the existing right to resist false arrest did not extend to Terry Stops. So, as far as I know Virginians still have a right to resist false arrest.
    Does VA law define what a "false arrest" is and how to resist it?

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    There is no way of knowing, at the time, whether or not a stop or arrest is lawful. I will not resist unless I believe life or limb is in danger, and then I don't care who or what the threat is.


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