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Thread: Red light cameras gone wild video

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    Red light cameras gone wild video


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    I am glad my State, UTAH, has prohibited the companies offering this service? from collecting any fees or penalties using these devices as well at the infamous "photocop" speed traps.

    Personally, it seems to me that the systems take a photo of the operator of a vehicle and the license tag then sent a citation/summons to the registered owner but make zero effort to determine that the registered owner is/was the actual operator of the vehicle at the time the alleged infraction occurred. I believe this turns our justice system on its head by making the recipient of the summons prove they were not the operator vs the State proving that they were!

    And the above doesn't even to begin to discuss the methods these schemers have resorted to with non-standard timing of the light sequence in a effort to GENERATE MORE CASH FLOW!---- Absolutely despicable!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    ...Personally, it seems to me that the systems take a photo of the operator of a vehicle and the license tag then sent a citation/summons to the registered owner but make zero effort to determine that the registered owner is/was the actual operator of the vehicle at the time the alleged infraction occurred...
    If "not me" is an absolute defense to the ticket then there is no affront to our justice system. If a red-light camera law is written in such a way as simply saying "not me" doesn't dispose of the ticket, then I am with you. Otherwise, based on personal experience of how these cameras can reduce accidents at intersections, I am all for red-light cameras.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If "not me" is an absolute defense to the ticket then there is no affront to our justice system. If a red-light camera law is written in such a way as simply saying "not me" doesn't dispose of the ticket, then I am with you. Otherwise, based on personal experience of how these cameras can reduce accidents at intersections, I am all for red-light cameras.
    Long history of red light cameras contributing to an increased accident rate - they are however good revenue generators.

    http://www.motorists.org/red-light-c...ease-accidents

    http://watchdogwire.com/florida/2013...use-accidents/

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/red-light-c...ry?id=13925887
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Long history of red light cameras contributing to an increased accident rate - they are however good revenue generators.

    http://www.motorists.org/red-light-c...ease-accidents

    http://watchdogwire.com/florida/2013...use-accidents/

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/red-light-c...ry?id=13925887
    Apart from your personal lack of credibility with me, I simply don't believe you because of my personal experience with the intersection of Vaughn Road and the Eastern Boulevard in Montgomery. The red light camera simply worked. Fewer people ran the light and there were FAR fewer accidents. I am glad they put that camera in--even though my daughter got caught by it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If "not me" is an absolute defense to the ticket then there is no affront to our justice system. If a red-light camera law is written in such a way as simply saying "not me" doesn't dispose of the ticket, then I am with you. Otherwise, based on personal experience of how these cameras can reduce accidents at intersections, I am all for red-light cameras.
    If we put everyone in jail then that would reduce accidents at intersections as well. Jeeez. Do you think you understand the meaning of the word "liberty"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Apart from your personal lack of credibility with me, I simply don't believe you because of my personal experience with the intersection of Vaughn Road and the Eastern Boulevard in Montgomery. The red light camera simply worked. Fewer people ran the light and there were FAR fewer accidents. I am glad they put that camera in--even though my daughter got caught by it.
    Amazing that you would allow a personal agenda to cloud your objectivity. Never said that red light cameras never reduced accidents anywhere ever, but the facts are there to see and it isn't personal opinion.


    Red Light Cameras Increase Accidents

    Red light cameras are touted as devices that increase intersection safety. However, information is quickly surfacing that shows the inaccuracy of that belief.
    One source that is highlighting the increase in accidents is the media. Because so many studies are showing an increase in collisions at red light camera intersections, various news outlets are conducting their own studies in this phenomenon. Below is a small sampling of these reports.
    Reports From The Media

    Los Angeles | KCAL TV
    A local TV station fact-checked the city's claims that their ticket cameras reduced accidents and found that the opposite was true. At 20 of the 32 intersections studied, accidents increased and several intersections tripled their accident rate.

    Washington, D.C. | Washington Post
    This report showed an overall increase in accidents at red-light camera intersections of 107 percent.

    Portland, Oregon | KATU News
    KATU News reviewed city statistics and found a 140 percent increase in rear-end crashes at the intersections where red light cameras were installed.

    Fort Collins, Colorado | The Coloradoan
    Ft. Collins, Colorado has experienced an 83 percent increase in the number of accidents since red light cameras were installed.

    Oceanside, California | North County Times
    This report showed a 800 percent increase in rear-end accidents.

    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Philadelphia Weekly
    This article showed an increase of 10 to 21 percent in accidents in intersections with red-light cameras.

    Corpus Christi, Texas | TheNewspaper.com
    Data released by the city showed that the total number of accidents in Corpus Christi increased 14 percent, from 310 incidents to 353, at nine locations where automated ticketing machines were stationed. Contrary to the claim that red light cameras reduce the severity of collisions, the number of accidents involving injuries increased 28 percent from 140 to 179. Rear end collisions also increased by nearly a third from 160 to 208.

    Winnipeg, Ontario | Winnipeg Sun
    The average number of collisions at Winnipeg’s 12 original red-light camera intersections has jumped 18% since the devices were installed in 2003, according to Manitoba Public Insurance data obtained by the Winnipeg Sun. Despite claims by politicians and police brass that intersection cameras are making our streets safer by reducing collisions, the MPI data shows after six years of use, crashes at the intersections are actually going up, not down.


    Go Back To Red Light Cameras Home Page



    It's all about the money - YOURS!

    NMA Position on Red Light Cameras

    The NMA opposes the use of red light cameras and proposes engineering solutions as the real fix for intersections with high accident rates.

    NMA Red Light Camera Fact Sheet






    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-22-2013 at 10:31 PM. Reason: formatting
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    NMA Objections To Red Light Cameras
    This article lists ten objections that the NMA has to the use of red light cameras.

    Alternatives To Red Light Cameras
    There are better ways to decrease red light running than ticket cameras; this article details some of those methods.

    Red Light Cameras Increase Accidents
    A collection of media coverage reporting on the increase in accidents at red light ticket camera intersections.

    Yellow Light Timing
    As these studies show, the duration of a yellow light can have a dramatic effect on the number of red light violations.

    Is Your Camera Ticket A Fake?
    If your red light camera "ticket" does not have the full address and phone number of the Court on it, or if it says, "Do not contact the court," it's most likely not really a ticket at all and you may be able to just ignore it.

    Red Light Camera Articles
    A collection of useful articles on red light ticket cameras.

    Red Light Camera Studies
    A listing of red light camera studies that explore their effect on traffic safety.

    $10,000 Ticket Camera Challenge
    The NMA has issued a challenge to any city using red light cameras that engineering solutions will improve safety more than using the ticket cameras.

    Regulating Red Light Cameras
    This article outlines some regulations that should be in place if a city insists on using red light ticket cameras.

    Essential Download For Ticket Camera Activists
    A collection of documents that activists can print out to show that the use of ticket cameras is misguided.

    Additional Red Light Camera Resources
    You can find more information on red light ticket cameras through these resources.

    Any other questions?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-22-2013 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Format
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Not sure why this is stickied...

    Anyway, I thought red light light camera, or ANY camera type tickets were some of the easiest to beat in court. Something about your right to confront/question your accuser in court. Call the camera to the stand. When it doesn't show up, case dismissed. Just what I read, no experience with it personally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Not sure why this is stickied...

    Anyway, I thought red light light camera, or ANY camera type tickets were some of the easiest to beat in court. Something about your right to confront/question your accuser in court. Call the camera to the stand. When it doesn't show up, case dismissed. Just what I read, no experience with it personally.
    What has happened in many states, including mine, is that the ticket is properly filed in an administrative court. The rules of admin law apply and their rules of evidence are different than criminal rules. Once the defendant has been found guilty then they can appeal to a district court and the case is held using criminal rules and the trial is de novo. That's a lot of work to fight a $50.00 ticket. They win in this state by keeping the fines low, the defense difficult and also because there is no reflection on the defendant's driving record.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Do any of those claims of cameras increasing crashes discuss the cost and injury comparison between the rear-end crash (which yes, probably does increase, but costs less and has less-severe injuries) and the T-bone (which from what I understand usually drops in number/%/rate)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Not sure why this is stickied...

    Anyway, I thought red light light camera, or ANY camera type tickets were some of the easiest to beat in court. Something about your right to confront/question your accuser in court. Call the camera to the stand. When it doesn't show up, case dismissed. Just what I read, no experience with it personally.
    No - they are the hardest to beat on court - photo of car = guilt of owner of car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    What has happened in many states, including mine, is that the ticket is properly filed in an administrative court. The rules of admin law apply and their rules of evidence are different than criminal rules. Once the defendant has been found guilty then they can appeal to a district court and the case is held using criminal rules and the trial is de novo. That's a lot of work to fight a $50.00 ticket. They win in this state by keeping the fines low, the defense difficult and also because there is no reflection on the defendant's driving record.
    In Virginia the vehicle owner wins by not responding to mailed red light scammera tickets - no penalty can arise unless they serve you personally. as a result, this deters localities from installing red light scammeras as Fairfax County just decided - NOT - to erect red light scammeras.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    No - they are the hardest to beat on court - photo of car = guilt of owner of car.
    Having gotten one of these, I can say, at least in Montgomery, they are easy to beat. There is a photo of the driver. If it ain't you, you have beaten the ticket.

    There are a lot more valuable threads to sticky. I vote to unsticky this one (along with a bunch of others; way too much junk gets stickied 'round here).

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    What has happened in many states, including mine, is that the ticket is properly filed in an administrative court. The rules of admin law apply and their rules of evidence are different than criminal rules. Once the defendant has been found guilty then they can appeal to a district court and the case is held using criminal rules and the trial is de novo. That's a lot of work to fight a $50.00 ticket. They win in this state by keeping the fines low, the defense difficult and also because there is no reflection on the defendant's driving record.
    In Virginia the vehicle owner wins by not responding to mailed red light scammera tickets - no penalty can arise unless they serve you personally. as a result, this deters localities from installing red light scammeras as Fairfax County just decided - NOT - to erect red light scammeras.

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    In MO a red light camera "ticket" is a violation of due process, our state supremos said so. A local attorney advised/es to toss them in the trash. Some political subdivisions keep using them cuz they know that they can count on some folks to pay the "ticket" simply because a ticket was mailed to them. Sounds very much like a scam. I think i recall one little town, MO or another state, installed a box that had a sensor that would activate a strobe light and folks thought they were getting their picture taken. The same result occurred, a reduction in folks running the light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    In MO a red light camera "ticket" is a violation of due process, our state supremos said so. A local attorney advised/es to toss them in the trash. Some political subdivisions keep using them cuz they know that they can count on some folks to pay the "ticket" simply because a ticket was mailed to them. Sounds very much like a scam. I think i recall one little town, MO or another state, installed a box that had a sensor that would activate a strobe light and folks thought they were getting their picture taken. The same result occurred, a reduction in folks running the light.
    Would be interesting to see if accidents increased at that location.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    In Virginia the vehicle owner wins by not responding to mailed red light scammera tickets - no penalty can arise unless they serve you personally. as a result, this deters localities from installing red light scammeras as Fairfax County just decided - NOT - to erect red light scammeras.
    Hang on a second. The Fairfax County Board of Supervisors actually got one right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Having gotten one of these, I can say, at least in Montgomery, they are easy to beat. There is a photo of the driver. If it ain't you, you have beaten the ticket.

    There are a lot more valuable threads to sticky. I vote to unsticky this one (along with a bunch of others; way too much junk gets stickied 'round here).
    Unfortunately, this is not the way our system works ... the defendant has no requirement to present any case; the law takes the ticket as prima facia evidence ... this is goofy.

    Why would anyone have to prove its not you instead of the state having to prove it is your; plus, who is injured? Civil cases require an injured party...

    Why not apply the same principles to murder cases .. where the defendant must prove his innocence ...

    People who support red light cameras have no idea what they are supporting...

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    --snipped--

    People who support red light cameras have no idea what they are supporting...
    But if it saves one child.............................
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    But if it saves one child.............................
    ......in the limit, at the expense of all children's liberty. (Think slippery slope if an inferential limit is too academic).
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Do any of those claims of cameras increasing crashes discuss the cost and injury comparison between the rear-end crash (which yes, probably does increase, but costs less and has less-severe injuries) and the T-bone (which from what I understand usually drops in number/%/rate)?
    This is a good question.

    Also, red light cameras are one of those things that were designed with a good intention and have either been manipulated by people (yellow light stuff) or just hasn't worked in some places.

    The point is people don't stop at red lights when they don't see a cop there (hmmm crime prevention? Lol) so they put a camera so people know they can't run it. Well the point is to keep people from running the red light. Instead of people just doing the right thing they need to "beat the light" and try to go fast. Well they realize they can't so they jack their brakes (like they do if a cop is sitting there). If people just stopped trying to beat the light they wouldn't get a ticket or have to jack their brakes and cause an accident.

    Again its bad that they try to manipulate the lights. But that doesn't happen at every place.

    Also with the numbers.... if a small town has 2 crashes a month at an intersection and it goes up to 4 crashes.... well this a 100% increase! But just 2 more accidents..... my point is those numbers seem insane but its just more stats. The ones that actually count the incidents show they really aren't that many more.

    So good I intentions (safer intersection) maybe bad execution and manipulation.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    But if it saves one child.............................


    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    ......in the limit, at the expense of all children's liberty. (Think slippery slope if an inferential limit is too academic).
    Unseen sarcasm employed on prior post.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Apart from your personal lack of credibility with me, I simply don't believe you because of my personal experience with the intersection of Vaughn Road and the Eastern Boulevard in Montgomery. The red light camera simply worked. Fewer people ran the light and there were FAR fewer accidents. I am glad they put that camera in--even though my daughter got caught by it.


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    Huh, interesting. Must be why the Fl dpt of Insurance has said that these cameras INCREASE accidents at intersections. Regardless, your anecdotal N=1 sample space is completely irrelevant. Luckily, these unsafe cameras are illegal in my state.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Would be interesting to see if accidents increased at that location.
    In general, Allstate insurance believes they do (photo enforcement), and so did the Fl dpt of Ins. I used to work for them (Allstate) before changing careers. Ins companies are always a powerful lobby and they did not endorse these laws, when I expected them to. I remember reading an intracompany/intraindustry email (it was also in the local paper) about how they increased accidents, to a statistically significant degree, according to the actuaries. The theory was (is?) that people lock up the brakes instead of just uneventfully going through before other traffic had time to hit the violator.
    Last edited by 77zach; 12-23-2013 at 06:31 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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