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Red light cameras gone wild video

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
I am glad my State, UTAH, has prohibited the companies offering this service? from collecting any fees or penalties using these devices as well at the infamous "photocop" speed traps.

Personally, it seems to me that the systems take a photo of the operator of a vehicle and the license tag then sent a citation/summons to the registered owner but make zero effort to determine that the registered owner is/was the actual operator of the vehicle at the time the alleged infraction occurred. I believe this turns our justice system on its head by making the recipient of the summons prove they were not the operator vs the State proving that they were!

And the above doesn't even to begin to discuss the methods these schemers have resorted to with non-standard timing of the light sequence in a effort to GENERATE MORE CASH FLOW!---- Absolutely despicable!
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
...Personally, it seems to me that the systems take a photo of the operator of a vehicle and the license tag then sent a citation/summons to the registered owner but make zero effort to determine that the registered owner is/was the actual operator of the vehicle at the time the alleged infraction occurred...

If "not me" is an absolute defense to the ticket then there is no affront to our justice system. If a red-light camera law is written in such a way as simply saying "not me" doesn't dispose of the ticket, then I am with you. Otherwise, based on personal experience of how these cameras can reduce accidents at intersections, I am all for red-light cameras.
 

Grapeshot

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Messages
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Valhalla
If "not me" is an absolute defense to the ticket then there is no affront to our justice system. If a red-light camera law is written in such a way as simply saying "not me" doesn't dispose of the ticket, then I am with you. Otherwise, based on personal experience of how these cameras can reduce accidents at intersections, I am all for red-light cameras.

Long history of red light cameras contributing to an increased accident rate - they are however good revenue generators.

http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/increase-accidents

http://watchdogwire.com/florida/2013/02/16/study-finds-red-light-cameras-cause-accidents/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/red-light-camera-backlash-cameras-causing-accidents/story?id=13925887
 

eye95

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Messages
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Fairborn, Ohio, USA

Apart from your personal lack of credibility with me, I simply don't believe you because of my personal experience with the intersection of Vaughn Road and the Eastern Boulevard in Montgomery. The red light camera simply worked. Fewer people ran the light and there were FAR fewer accidents. I am glad they put that camera in--even though my daughter got caught by it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
If "not me" is an absolute defense to the ticket then there is no affront to our justice system. If a red-light camera law is written in such a way as simply saying "not me" doesn't dispose of the ticket, then I am with you. Otherwise, based on personal experience of how these cameras can reduce accidents at intersections, I am all for red-light cameras.

If we put everyone in jail then that would reduce accidents at intersections as well. Jeeez. Do you think you understand the meaning of the word "liberty"?
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
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Valhalla
Apart from your personal lack of credibility with me, I simply don't believe you because of my personal experience with the intersection of Vaughn Road and the Eastern Boulevard in Montgomery. The red light camera simply worked. Fewer people ran the light and there were FAR fewer accidents. I am glad they put that camera in--even though my daughter got caught by it.
Amazing that you would allow a personal agenda to cloud your objectivity. Never said that red light cameras never reduced accidents anywhere ever, but the facts are there to see and it isn't personal opinion.


Red Light Cameras Increase Accidents

Red light cameras are touted as devices that increase intersection safety. However, information is quickly surfacing that shows the inaccuracy of that belief.
One source that is highlighting the increase in accidents is the media. Because so many studies are showing an increase in collisions at red light camera intersections, various news outlets are conducting their own studies in this phenomenon. Below is a small sampling of these reports.
Reports From The Media

Los Angeles | KCAL TV
A local TV station fact-checked the city's claims that their ticket cameras reduced accidents and found that the opposite was true. At 20 of the 32 intersections studied, accidents increased and several intersections tripled their accident rate.

Washington, D.C. | Washington Post
This report showed an overall increase in accidents at red-light camera intersections of 107 percent.

Portland, Oregon | KATU News
KATU News reviewed city statistics and found a 140 percent increase in rear-end crashes at the intersections where red light cameras were installed.

Fort Collins, Colorado | The Coloradoan
Ft. Collins, Colorado has experienced an 83 percent increase in the number of accidents since red light cameras were installed.

Oceanside, California | North County Times
This report showed a 800 percent increase in rear-end accidents.

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Philadelphia Weekly
This article showed an increase of 10 to 21 percent in accidents in intersections with red-light cameras.

Corpus Christi, Texas | TheNewspaper.com
Data released by the city showed that the total number of accidents in Corpus Christi increased 14 percent, from 310 incidents to 353, at nine locations where automated ticketing machines were stationed. Contrary to the claim that red light cameras reduce the severity of collisions, the number of accidents involving injuries increased 28 percent from 140 to 179. Rear end collisions also increased by nearly a third from 160 to 208.

Winnipeg, Ontario | Winnipeg Sun
The average number of collisions at Winnipeg’s 12 original red-light camera intersections has jumped 18% since the devices were installed in 2003, according to Manitoba Public Insurance data obtained by the Winnipeg Sun. Despite claims by politicians and police brass that intersection cameras are making our streets safer by reducing collisions, the MPI data shows after six years of use, crashes at the intersections are actually going up, not down.


Go Back To Red Light Cameras Home Page



It's all about the money - YOURS!

NMA Position on Red Light Cameras

The NMA opposes the use of red light cameras and proposes engineering solutions as the real fix for intersections with high accident rates.

NMA Red Light Camera Fact Sheet





 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
NMA Objections To Red Light Cameras
This article lists ten objections that the NMA has to the use of red light cameras.

Alternatives To Red Light Cameras
There are better ways to decrease red light running than ticket cameras; this article details some of those methods.

Red Light Cameras Increase Accidents
A collection of media coverage reporting on the increase in accidents at red light ticket camera intersections.

Yellow Light Timing
As these studies show, the duration of a yellow light can have a dramatic effect on the number of red light violations.

Is Your Camera Ticket A Fake?
If your red light camera "ticket" does not have the full address and phone number of the Court on it, or if it says, "Do not contact the court," it's most likely not really a ticket at all and you may be able to just ignore it.

Red Light Camera Articles
A collection of useful articles on red light ticket cameras.

Red Light Camera Studies
A listing of red light camera studies that explore their effect on traffic safety.

$10,000 Ticket Camera Challenge
The NMA has issued a challenge to any city using red light cameras that engineering solutions will improve safety more than using the ticket cameras.

Regulating Red Light Cameras
This article outlines some regulations that should be in place if a city insists on using red light ticket cameras.

Essential Download For Ticket Camera Activists
A collection of documents that activists can print out to show that the use of ticket cameras is misguided.

Additional Red Light Camera Resources
You can find more information on red light ticket cameras through these resources.

Any other questions?
 
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stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
Not sure why this is stickied...

Anyway, I thought red light light camera, or ANY camera type tickets were some of the easiest to beat in court. Something about your right to confront/question your accuser in court. Call the camera to the stand. When it doesn't show up, case dismissed. Just what I read, no experience with it personally.
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
Not sure why this is stickied...

Anyway, I thought red light light camera, or ANY camera type tickets were some of the easiest to beat in court. Something about your right to confront/question your accuser in court. Call the camera to the stand. When it doesn't show up, case dismissed. Just what I read, no experience with it personally.

What has happened in many states, including mine, is that the ticket is properly filed in an administrative court. The rules of admin law apply and their rules of evidence are different than criminal rules. Once the defendant has been found guilty then they can appeal to a district court and the case is held using criminal rules and the trial is de novo. That's a lot of work to fight a $50.00 ticket. They win in this state by keeping the fines low, the defense difficult and also because there is no reflection on the defendant's driving record.
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
Do any of those claims of cameras increasing crashes discuss the cost and injury comparison between the rear-end crash (which yes, probably does increase, but costs less and has less-severe injuries) and the T-bone (which from what I understand usually drops in number/%/rate)?
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Not sure why this is stickied...

Anyway, I thought red light light camera, or ANY camera type tickets were some of the easiest to beat in court. Something about your right to confront/question your accuser in court. Call the camera to the stand. When it doesn't show up, case dismissed. Just what I read, no experience with it personally.

No - they are the hardest to beat on court - photo of car = guilt of owner of car.
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
What has happened in many states, including mine, is that the ticket is properly filed in an administrative court. The rules of admin law apply and their rules of evidence are different than criminal rules. Once the defendant has been found guilty then they can appeal to a district court and the case is held using criminal rules and the trial is de novo. That's a lot of work to fight a $50.00 ticket. They win in this state by keeping the fines low, the defense difficult and also because there is no reflection on the defendant's driving record.

In Virginia the vehicle owner wins by not responding to mailed red light scammera tickets - no penalty can arise unless they serve you personally. as a result, this deters localities from installing red light scammeras as Fairfax County just decided - NOT - to erect red light scammeras.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
No - they are the hardest to beat on court - photo of car = guilt of owner of car.

Having gotten one of these, I can say, at least in Montgomery, they are easy to beat. There is a photo of the driver. If it ain't you, you have beaten the ticket.

There are a lot more valuable threads to sticky. I vote to unsticky this one (along with a bunch of others; way too much junk gets stickied 'round here).
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
What has happened in many states, including mine, is that the ticket is properly filed in an administrative court. The rules of admin law apply and their rules of evidence are different than criminal rules. Once the defendant has been found guilty then they can appeal to a district court and the case is held using criminal rules and the trial is de novo. That's a lot of work to fight a $50.00 ticket. They win in this state by keeping the fines low, the defense difficult and also because there is no reflection on the defendant's driving record.

In Virginia the vehicle owner wins by not responding to mailed red light scammera tickets - no penalty can arise unless they serve you personally. as a result, this deters localities from installing red light scammeras as Fairfax County just decided - NOT - to erect red light scammeras.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
In MO a red light camera "ticket" is a violation of due process, our state supremos said so. A local attorney advised/es to toss them in the trash. Some political subdivisions keep using them cuz they know that they can count on some folks to pay the "ticket" simply because a ticket was mailed to them. Sounds very much like a scam. I think i recall one little town, MO or another state, installed a box that had a sensor that would activate a strobe light and folks thought they were getting their picture taken. The same result occurred, a reduction in folks running the light.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
In MO a red light camera "ticket" is a violation of due process, our state supremos said so. A local attorney advised/es to toss them in the trash. Some political subdivisions keep using them cuz they know that they can count on some folks to pay the "ticket" simply because a ticket was mailed to them. Sounds very much like a scam. I think i recall one little town, MO or another state, installed a box that had a sensor that would activate a strobe light and folks thought they were getting their picture taken. The same result occurred, a reduction in folks running the light.
Would be interesting to see if accidents increased at that location.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
In Virginia the vehicle owner wins by not responding to mailed red light scammera tickets - no penalty can arise unless they serve you personally. as a result, this deters localities from installing red light scammeras as Fairfax County just decided - NOT - to erect red light scammeras.

Hang on a second. The Fairfax County Board of Supervisors actually got one right?

Man, oh, man. Lemme unstuff my mattress! I'm buying stock in furnaces because Hell is about to freeze over!
 
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davidmcbeth

Banned
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Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
Having gotten one of these, I can say, at least in Montgomery, they are easy to beat. There is a photo of the driver. If it ain't you, you have beaten the ticket.

There are a lot more valuable threads to sticky. I vote to unsticky this one (along with a bunch of others; way too much junk gets stickied 'round here).

Unfortunately, this is not the way our system works ... the defendant has no requirement to present any case; the law takes the ticket as prima facia evidence ... this is goofy.

Why would anyone have to prove its not you instead of the state having to prove it is your; plus, who is injured? Civil cases require an injured party...

Why not apply the same principles to murder cases .. where the defendant must prove his innocence ...

People who support red light cameras have no idea what they are supporting...
 
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