Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: PWC Finger Print Card

  1. #1
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    234

    PWC Finger Print Card

    I'm considering getting a UT CFP and just need to get a finger print card. As I OC all the time I was wondering if anyone has OCed in this place. It appears to be leased private property used by the PWC police.

    Fingerprinting is performed at the Prince William County Police Department's Licensing Section at 8406 Kao Circle in Manassas (Euclid Business Center), only if trained staff are available. Hours for basic fingerprinting services are Monday through Friday from 8 a.m. to 11:30 a.m., and from 1 p.m. to 3 p.m. This service is available for residents of Prince William County.

    http://www.pwcgov.org/government/dep...-services.aspx
    "Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me"
    NRA Lifetime Member

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    519
    To answer your question, police departments and related facilities, such as those for fingerprinting, are NOT off limits to openly carried or lawfully concealed firearms. Courts and detention facilities ARE off limits. Somebody who knows that facility more intimately may be able to amplify.

    The web page you posted says that you must have two forms of ID: driver's license and SS card are the only two forms of acceptable ID listed. These requirements aren't consistent from county to county. The fingerprint facility near the Fairfax courthouse accepts several other forms of ID.

    There are a number of Utah concealed firearms instructors who post here, including myself. As you probably know, UT requires instruction by an approved UT instructor. Prior experience, however relevant or extensive, doesn't negate this requirement. Utah's philosophy seems to be that they want everybody who gets a UT Concealed Firearms Permit to hear the same things.

    Hope this helps.

  3. #3
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by markand View Post
    To answer your question, police departments and related facilities, such as those for fingerprinting, are NOT off limits to openly carried or lawfully concealed firearms. Courts and detention facilities ARE off limits. Somebody who knows that facility more intimately may be able to amplify.

    The web page you posted says that you must have two forms of ID: driver's license and SS card are the only two forms of acceptable ID listed. These requirements aren't consistent from county to county. The fingerprint facility near the Fairfax courthouse accepts several other forms of ID.

    There are a number of Utah concealed firearms instructors who post here, including myself. As you probably know, UT requires instruction by an approved UT instructor. Prior experience, however relevant or extensive, doesn't negate this requirement. Utah's philosophy seems to be that they want everybody who gets a UT Concealed Firearms Permit to hear the same things.

    Hope this helps.
    This place was my first choice and it's only $5. I would assume OC is allowed but I was not sure... When I applied for my Oregon CHL I had to take a NRA handgun course which I did because they would not accept my DD214 (it did not specifically show handgun training). VA had no problem with my DD214. I have not checked but I would imagine that UT would accept the NRA course as well. I just have to hunt down the instructor and have him stamp and fill out that portion of the UT CFP application form.

    Thanks!
    "Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me"
    NRA Lifetime Member

  4. #4
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,627
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    This place was my first choice and it's only $5. I would assume OC is allowed but I was not sure... When I applied for my Oregon CHL I had to take a NRA handgun course which I did because they would not accept my DD214 (it did not specifically show handgun training). VA had no problem with my DD214. I have not checked but I would imagine that UT would accept the NRA course as well. I just have to hunt down the instructor and have him stamp and fill out that portion of the UT CFP application form.

    Thanks!
    . Weapon Familiarity Certification. Applicants must complete a firearms familiarity course certified by BCI. The course must be completed before you apply for a permit. Please have your instructor complete the certification information on the application. View a list of (in-state) (out-of-state) certified instructors.
    http://www.usacarry.com/utah_conceal...formation.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  5. #5
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    . Weapon Familiarity Certification. Applicants must complete a firearms familiarity course certified by BCI. The course must be completed before you apply for a permit. Please have your instructor complete the certification information on the application. View a list of (in-state) (out-of-state) certified instructors.
    http://www.usacarry.com/utah_conceal...formation.html
    I guess my problem is that my instructor is not on their list. I have emailed BCI to see if he is on it or can be put on it. The course I took was to get an Oregon CHL. At the time I didn't know I was going to get a UT CFP... Funny how the states can be so different. Got my VA CHP with just my DD214 that didn't have any handgun qualification on it. OR requires that the DD214 have a handgun certification on it so I had to take a handgun course from a NRA certified instructor. Maybe the next state I get a concealed handgun permit/license I will have to demonstrate that I can rub my tummy and pat my head at the same time...

    I did notice that Philip Van Cleave was on the list!!
    "Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me"
    NRA Lifetime Member

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    519
    To amplify on what Grapeshot said above, Utah requires everybody who applies for a UT Concealed Firearms Permit (CFP) to attend, in person, a course approved by the BCI (Bureau of Criminal Identification, the Utah agency responsible for the processing and administration of Concealed Firearms Permits.) There is NO NRA class that satisfies this requirement, nor will a DD-214 satisfy this requirement, regardless of whether the DD-214 lists firearms training. Professional, competitive or other firearms experience is also irrelevant to Utah, as far as the CFP goes, no matter how lengthy or extensive that experience is. Everybody who wants a UT CFP has to attend, in person, a course approved by the BCI and taught by an instructor approved by the BCI.

    The link Grapeshot provided should take you to a list of instructors approved by the BCI who live in Virginia. Utah instructors have to go to Utah every 3 years to attend an instructor class in order to get on the list of approved instructors. Best thing to do would be to check out some instructors close to you and make some phone calls to find somebody you like. By the way, if you find a UT certified instructor who is willing to just stamp your permit application without actually requiring that you attend the course, they are subject to having their Utah Concealed Firearms Instructor certification revoked. Not saying whether that is right or wrong, just saying that's what Utah's rules are.

    Hope this helps!
    Last edited by markand; 12-23-2013 at 12:26 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    519
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    ... Funny how the states can be so different... Maybe the next state I get a concealed handgun permit/license I will have to demonstrate that I can rub my tummy and pat my head at the same time...
    You hit the nail on the head (while rubbing your tummy at the same time!!). Wait until you get around to figuring out all the various reciprocity rules. Most states that recognize other states permits make no distinction as to whether the permit holder is a resident or non-resident, but some (FL, CO, MI, NH, SC, ME) only recognize resident permits for the states they recognize. But WI does NOT honor a VA resident permit, but WILL recognize a VA non-resident permit. PA is in the process of ceasing to honor non-resident permits, but hasn't completed that process. Some states (ID, IA, ND) have two tiered permit systems in place, basically a lower level that is easy to get and a higher level that requires more training, in order to attract greater reciprocity for the higher level.

    Not to mention where the "...shall not be infringed..." thing fits in.
    Last edited by markand; 12-23-2013 at 01:09 AM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by markand View Post
    You hit the nail on the head (while rubbing your tummy at the same time!!). Wait until you get around to figuring out all the various reciprocity rules. Most states that recognize other states permits make no distinction as to whether the permit holder is a resident or non-resident, but some (FL, CO, MI, NH, SC, ME) only recognize resident permits for the states they recognize. But WI does NOT honor a VA resident permit, but WILL recognize a VA non-resident permit. PA is in the process of ceasing to honor non-resident permits, but hasn't completed that process. Some states (ID, IA, ND) have two tiered permit systems in place, basically a lower level that is easy to get and a higher level that requires more training, in order to attract greater reciprocity for the higher level.

    Not to mention where the "...shall not be infringed..." thing fits in.
    And to top this off, some states honor another states permit but does not afford the same rules as a resident permit.
    "Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me"
    NRA Lifetime Member

  9. #9
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by markand View Post
    To amplify on what Grapeshot said above, Utah requires everybody who applies for a UT Concealed Firearms Permit (CFP) to attend, in person, a course approved by the BCI (Bureau of Criminal Identification, the Utah agency responsible for the processing and administration of Concealed Firearms Permits.) There is NO NRA class that satisfies this requirement, nor will a DD-214 satisfy this requirement, regardless of whether the DD-214 lists firearms training. Professional, competitive or other firearms experience is also irrelevant to Utah, as far as the CFP goes, no matter how lengthy or extensive that experience is. Everybody who wants a UT CFP has to attend, in person, a course approved by the BCI and taught by an instructor approved by the BCI.

    The link Grapeshot provided should take you to a list of instructors approved by the BCI who live in Virginia. Utah instructors have to go to Utah every 3 years to attend an instructor class in order to get on the list of approved instructors. Best thing to do would be to check out some instructors close to you and make some phone calls to find somebody you like. By the way, if you find a UT certified instructor who is willing to just stamp your permit application without actually requiring that you attend the course, they are subject to having their Utah Concealed Firearms Instructor certification revoked. Not saying whether that is right or wrong, just saying that's what Utah's rules are.

    Hope this helps!
    I was not looking for a UT certified instructor to just stamp my permit application, I was thinking that the instructor that gave us the class would, assuming he was/is is UT certified. We took the course less than a years ago. Also assuming that he cover the correct material to meet UT requirement. Not trying to cheat here, just tying to git'er done.
    "Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me"
    NRA Lifetime Member

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    519
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    I was not looking for a UT certified instructor to just stamp my permit application, I was thinking that the instructor that gave us the class would, assuming he was/is is UT certified. We took the course less than a years ago. Also assuming that he cover the correct material to meet UT requirement. Not trying to cheat here, just tying to git'er done.
    No problem. Wasn't implying you were trying to cheat. If your instructor was already UT certified when you took his course AND the course he taught was his approved UT course, then that might be a path and worth a phone call or email to him or her find out. Utah's rules are kind of rigid, but they are what they are.

  11. #11
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    I was not looking for a UT certified instructor to just stamp my permit application, I was thinking that the instructor that gave us the class would, assuming he was/is is UT certified. We took the course less than a years ago. Also assuming that he cover the correct material to meet UT requirement. Not trying to cheat here, just tying to git'er done.
    You can't just have an instructor added to the list. The instructor has to be previously certified by Utah and has to teach the specific Utah class.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  12. #12
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    You can't just have an instructor added to the list. The instructor has to be previously certified by Utah and has to teach the specific Utah class.
    I contacted UT to see if he was on the list but has not been updated to their web site. As it turns out, I'll have to take a UT certified course...
    "Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me"
    NRA Lifetime Member

  13. #13
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426
    I have a call in to Jeff Dunn of the BCI to clarify this, but he's out of the office until Friday.
    Here's the UT code covering ccp.
    Discussing training, it says:
    (8)
    (a) General familiarity with the types of firearms to be concealed includes training in:
    (i) the safe loading, unloading, storage, and carrying of the types of firearms to be concealed; and
    (ii) current laws defining lawful use of a firearm by a private citizen, including lawful self-defense, use of force by a private citizen, including use of deadly force, transportation, and concealment.

    (b) An applicant may satisfy the general familiarity requirement of Subsection (8)(a) by one of the following:
    (i) completion of a course of instruction conducted by a national, state, or local firearms training organization approved by the bureau;
    (ii) certification of general familiarity by a person who has been certified by the bureau, which may include a law enforcement officer, military or civilian firearms instructor, or hunter safety instructor; or
    (iii) equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in an organized shooting competition, law enforcement, or military service.
    The only course I've ever heard of which satisfies (8)(b)(i) is the standard curriculum, posted on the BCI site. It sounds like the NRA Personal Protection series would cover the required info, but it has to be approved by BCI.
    (8)(b)(ii) is the usual route, the standard class.
    (8)(b)(iii) would apply to many people, but only if that experience covered what's required in (8)(a), and I'm betting that most don't.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 12-23-2013 at 03:44 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I have a call in to Jeff Dunn of the BCI to clarify this, but he's out of the office until Friday.
    Here's the UT code covering ccp.
    Discussing training, it says:


    The only course I've ever heard of which satisfies (8)(b)(i) is the standard curriculum, posted on the BCI site. It sounds like the NRA Personal Protection series would cover the required info, but it has to be approved by BCI.
    (8)(b)(ii) is the usual route, the standard class.
    (8)(b)(iii) would apply to many people, but only if that experience covered what's required in (8)(a), and I'm betting that most don't.
    BCI is usually closed on Friday, so I doubt Jeff will get back to you then.

    NRA PP won't work. The course that Utah accepts is the one that they wrote (well, copied most of from the NRA Basic Pistol Class). Its a specific course that Utah certified instructors are trained to teach. Nothing else will do.

    To the OP - I offer the Utah class each month in Ashland, Va. Been teaching it since 2008. We'd be happy to have you in class.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  15. #15
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    234
    Wife and I signed up for a course at Capital Defense Instruction, nearby... http://www.capitaldefenseinstruction...-Schedule.html
    "Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me"
    NRA Lifetime Member

  16. #16
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    Wife and I signed up for a course at Capital Defense Instruction, nearby... http://www.capitaldefenseinstruction...-Schedule.html
    Ok...Sorry that we couldn't help you...

    ETA - Wow! $125 for a 4 hour class? I've got to raise our prices, and start talking faster! LOL
    Last edited by ProShooter; 12-24-2013 at 01:03 AM.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  17. #17
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Ok...Sorry that we couldn't help you...

    ETA - Wow! $125 for a 4 hour class? I've got to raise our prices, and start talking faster! LOL
    ...and teach where the rich people are...
    "Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me"
    NRA Lifetime Member

  18. #18
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    ...and teach where the rich people are...
    I've taught a few times in Nova and we have always charged $85.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  19. #19
    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Dale City, VA, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,694
    One of the reasons Utah won't accept the NRA course is that it doesn't specifically cover Utah laws.

  20. #20
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    1,233
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    Wife and I signed up for a course at Capital Defense Instruction, nearby... http://www.capitaldefenseinstruction...-Schedule.html
    from Capital Defense's website
    Q. Do I have to be a resident of Utah to obtain this permit?
    A. No. Any U.S. citizen of any state (including the District of Columbia) may apply for a non-resident Utah Concealed Firearm Permit after taking the required 4 hour CFP course with us.
    Myself, I'd be wondering just how much attention this company pays to the details of the Utah syllabus. When did US Citizenship become a requirement for applying for a Utah permit?

    If they can't get some simple stuff correct, just how good is their class and what kind of instruction are people getting in just 4 hours?

    If I was in NoVa I think I'd rather wait for Proshooter's all day less expensive class.

    [/my $0.02]

  21. #21
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426

    heard back from BCI this morning

    Yes, on a Friday, just like he said he would.
    Basically they're ignoring the parts of the law saying that equivalent training can be proven by other methods* because they can't prove that they're equivalent, esp. w/r/t covering laws, and if another course were equivalent then they're covering the same thing, so why not just teach their curriculum.
    Whew!

    Since the legislators who made the law say those things are equivalent and acceptable proof in and of themselves, I don't see where BCI gets the authority to ignore that part of the law, but until someone challenges them in court this is the way it's going to be.

    Or I suppose an instructor who knows the law could take people with that equivalent experience and just teach the legal part of the curriculum.

    * "a course of instruction conducted by a national, state, or local firearms training organization approved by the bureau; equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in an organized shooting competition, law enforcement, or military service."

  22. #22
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
    Posts
    1,543
    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    Myself, I'd be wondering just how much attention this company pays to the details of the Utah syllabus. When did US Citizenship become a requirement for applying for a Utah permit?

    If they can't get some simple stuff correct, just how good is their class and what kind of instruction are people getting in just 4 hours?

    If I was in NoVa I think I'd rather wait for Proshooter's all day less expensive class.

    [/my $0.02]
    I took the class from TKA at the NRA Range. Utah requires that their specific syllabus be followed and much of it is Utah law. Four hours seemed like more than enough time to cover the material. While I'm certain that ProShooter's class is more comprehensive, Utah only requires the 4-hour session.
    Air Force Veteran
    NRA Life Member
    VCDL Member
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearm Safety, Personal Protection
    Maryland Qualified Handgun Instructor
    Certified Instructor, Associated Gun Clubs of Baltimore, Inc.
    Member, Mt. Washington Rod & Gun Club
    National Sporting Clays Association Certified Referee

  23. #23
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Utah only requires the 4-hour session.
    In 2008, when we first evaluated whether to offer the class, I couldn't see how it could be done effectively in 4 hours. Mostly because the course was based upon an 8 hour NRA Basic Pistol class, with more stuff added in. Many of the people who take the class are taking it as their first (and last) training class, so you really need to take the time to explain all of the gun stuff, safety, etc. without the class becoming death by Powerpoint. Funny thing is, even with a course outline most instructors do the class totally different from the next guy.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  24. #24
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
    Posts
    1,543
    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    In 2008, when we first evaluated whether to offer the class, I couldn't see how it could be done effectively in 4 hours. Mostly because the course was based upon an 8 hour NRA Basic Pistol class, with more stuff added in. Many of the people who take the class are taking it as their first (and last) training class, so you really need to take the time to explain all of the gun stuff, safety, etc. without the class becoming death by Powerpoint. Funny thing is, even with a course outline most instructors do the class totally different from the next guy.
    I mostly agree ... a lot of the time is taken up with the verbatim reading of the various applicable Utah statutes. OTOH, since a Virginia resident cannot obtain a Utah permit without first having a VA CHP, it would seem to me that most of the safety topics would have been handled in the CHP training.
    Air Force Veteran
    NRA Life Member
    VCDL Member
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearm Safety, Personal Protection
    Maryland Qualified Handgun Instructor
    Certified Instructor, Associated Gun Clubs of Baltimore, Inc.
    Member, Mt. Washington Rod & Gun Club
    National Sporting Clays Association Certified Referee

  25. #25
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    ...... OTOH, since a Virginia resident cannot obtain a Utah permit without first having a VA CHP, it would seem to me that most of the safety topics would have been handled in the CHP training.

    That would be true, but we find that about 40% of the students in each of our classes do not already have the Virginia permit yet.

    Even those who do have their Va. permits may have received them from hunter safety training, online BS training, etc., so many of the topics discussed are new to them.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •