PWC Finger Print Card

heard back from BCI this morning

Yes, on a Friday, just like he said he would.
Basically they're ignoring the parts of the law saying that equivalent training can be proven by other methods* because they can't prove that they're equivalent, esp. w/r/t covering laws, and if another course were equivalent then they're covering the same thing, so why not just teach their curriculum.
Whew!

Since the legislators who made the law say those things are equivalent and acceptable proof in and of themselves, I don't see where BCI gets the authority to ignore that part of the law, but until someone challenges them in court this is the way it's going to be.

Or I suppose an instructor who knows the law could take people with that equivalent experience and just teach the legal part of the curriculum.

* "a course of instruction conducted by a national, state, or local firearms training organization approved by the bureau; equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in an organized shooting competition, law enforcement, or military service."

scouser said:

Myself, I'd be wondering just how much attention this company pays to the details of the Utah syllabus. When did US Citizenship become a requirement for applying for a Utah permit?

If they can't get some simple stuff correct, just how good is their class and what kind of instruction are people getting in just 4 hours?

If I was in NoVa I think I'd rather wait for Proshooter's all day less expensive class.

[/my $0.02]

Click to expand...

I took the class from TKA at the NRA Range. Utah requires that their specific syllabus be followed and much of it is Utah law. Four hours seemed like more than enough time to cover the material. While I'm certain that ProShooter's class is more comprehensive, Utah only requires the 4-hour session.

JamesCanby said:

Utah only requires the 4-hour session.

Click to expand...

In 2008, when we first evaluated whether to offer the class, I couldn't see how it could be done effectively in 4 hours. Mostly because the course was based upon an 8 hour NRA Basic Pistol class, with more stuff added in. Many of the people who take the class are taking it as their first (and last) training class, so you really need to take the time to explain all of the gun stuff, safety, etc. without the class becoming death by Powerpoint. Funny thing is, even with a course outline most instructors do the class totally different from the next guy.

ProShooter said:

In 2008, when we first evaluated whether to offer the class, I couldn't see how it could be done effectively in 4 hours. Mostly because the course was based upon an 8 hour NRA Basic Pistol class, with more stuff added in. Many of the people who take the class are taking it as their first (and last) training class, so you really need to take the time to explain all of the gun stuff, safety, etc. without the class becoming death by Powerpoint. Funny thing is, even with a course outline most instructors do the class totally different from the next guy.

Click to expand...

I mostly agree ... a lot of the time is taken up with the verbatim reading of the various applicable Utah statutes. OTOH, since a Virginia resident cannot obtain a Utah permit without first having a VA CHP, it would seem to me that most of the safety topics would have been handled in the CHP training.

JamesCanby said:

...... OTOH, since a Virginia resident cannot obtain a Utah permit without first having a VA CHP, it would seem to me that most of the safety topics would have been handled in the CHP training.

Click to expand...

That would be true, but we find that about 40% of the students in each of our classes do not already have the Virginia permit yet.

Even those who do have their Va. permits may have received them from hunter safety training, online BS training, etc., so many of the topics discussed are new to them.

ProShooter said:

That would be true, but we find that about 40% of the students in each of our classes do not already have the Virginia permit yet.

Even those who do have their Va. permits may have received them from hunter safety training, online BS training, etc., so many of the topics discussed are new to them.

Click to expand...

Can't/won't argue with any of that... and as far as firearm safety is concerned there is no such thing as "too much training." Kudos for expanding the minimum requirement to include those necessary aspects.

The same goes for Instructors. I attended a Home Firearm Safety Instructor Training class a few weeks ago and several of the already-certified Pistol Instructors were caught sweeping themselves or others or failing to immediately verify and get a second verification that the firearm was unloaded. If we, as instructors, don't have the safety rules embedded in our psyches how can we expect our students to inculcate them....???

JamesCanby said:

Can't/won't argue with any of that... and as far as firearm safety is concerned there is no such thing as "too much training." Kudos for expanding the minimum requirement to include those necessary aspects.

Click to expand...

Agreed...more training is always better. Whenever I have a new instructor come on board, I always tell them - "I'd rather have 50 people walk out thinking 'I knew all that stuff', then one person who walks out saying 'I had no idea what the instructor was talking about'....."

JamesCanby said:

The same goes for Instructors. I attended a Home Firearm Safety Instructor Training class a few weeks ago and several of the already-certified Pistol Instructors were caught sweeping themselves or others or failing to immediately verify and get a second verification that the firearm was unloaded. If we, as instructors, don't have the safety rules embedded in our psyches how can we expect our students to inculcate them....???

Click to expand...

Now that is scary.

BTW, the course includes fingerprinting, photo, and form. We filed out the both the fingerprint card and form, picture taken and printed, and fingerprints on the card. Only thing we have to do is put a return address on the supplied envelope, enclosed money, include copies of drivers license and CHP, and send it in. I was expecting to have to take care of the photo and fingerprints myself. I took a filled out an application form to the class to make sure I got the instructors stamp and signature...

Maybe that is why it costs more? I was expecting to spend $10 on the fingerprint card and $12 on the photo plus my time/travel...

Easy peasy...

The course was condensed and I thought well done. If I didn't have the NRA course under my belt (I needed that for my OR CWP) then I would say that not having the range time would be a problem. One could take this UT course and use the certificate to get the VA CHP and not even have touched a gun although the timing would be close...