PWC Finger Print Card

JohnM15A · Dec 22, 2013

I'm considering getting a UT CFP and just need to get a finger print card. As I OC all the time I was wondering if anyone has OCed in this place. It appears to be leased private property used by the PWC police.

Fingerprinting is performed at the Prince William County Police Department's Licensing Section at 8406 Kao Circle in Manassas (Euclid Business Center), only if trained staff are available. Hours for basic fingerprinting services are Monday through Friday from 8 a.m. to 11:30 a.m., and from 1 p.m. to 3 p.m. This service is available for residents of Prince William County.

http://www.pwcgov.org/government/dept/police/pages/fingerprinting-services.aspx

markand · Dec 22, 2013

To answer your question, police departments and related facilities, such as those for fingerprinting, are NOT off limits to openly carried or lawfully concealed firearms. Courts and detention facilities ARE off limits. Somebody who knows that facility more intimately may be able to amplify.

The web page you posted says that you must have two forms of ID: driver's license and SS card are the only two forms of acceptable ID listed. These requirements aren't consistent from county to county. The fingerprint facility near the Fairfax courthouse accepts several other forms of ID.

There are a number of Utah concealed firearms instructors who post here, including myself. As you probably know, UT requires instruction by an approved UT instructor. Prior experience, however relevant or extensive, doesn't negate this requirement. Utah's philosophy seems to be that they want everybody who gets a UT Concealed Firearms Permit to hear the same things.

Hope this helps.

JohnM15A · Dec 22, 2013

markand said:
To answer your question, police departments and related facilities, such as those for fingerprinting, are NOT off limits to openly carried or lawfully concealed firearms. Courts and detention facilities ARE off limits. Somebody who knows that facility more intimately may be able to amplify.

The web page you posted says that you must have two forms of ID: driver's license and SS card are the only two forms of acceptable ID listed. These requirements aren't consistent from county to county. The fingerprint facility near the Fairfax courthouse accepts several other forms of ID.

There are a number of Utah concealed firearms instructors who post here, including myself. As you probably know, UT requires instruction by an approved UT instructor. Prior experience, however relevant or extensive, doesn't negate this requirement. Utah's philosophy seems to be that they want everybody who gets a UT Concealed Firearms Permit to hear the same things.

Hope this helps.

This place was my first choice and it's only $5. I would assume OC is allowed but I was not sure... When I applied for my Oregon CHL I had to take a NRA handgun course which I did because they would not accept my DD214 (it did not specifically show handgun training). VA had no problem with my DD214. I have not checked but I would imagine that UT would accept the NRA course as well. I just have to hunt down the instructor and have him stamp and fill out that portion of the UT CFP application form.

Thanks!

Grapeshot · Dec 22, 2013

JohnM15A said:
This place was my first choice and it's only $5. I would assume OC is allowed but I was not sure... When I applied for my Oregon CHL I had to take a NRA handgun course which I did because they would not accept my DD214 (it did not specifically show handgun training). VA had no problem with my DD214. I have not checked but I would imagine that UT would accept the NRA course as well. I just have to hunt down the instructor and have him stamp and fill out that portion of the UT CFP application form.

Thanks!

. Weapon Familiarity Certification. Applicants must complete a firearms familiarity course certified by BCI. The course must be completed before you apply for a permit. Please have your instructor complete the certification information on the application. View a list of (in-state) (out-of-state) certified instructors.
http://www.usacarry.com/utah_concealed_carry_permit_information.html

JohnM15A · Dec 22, 2013

Grapeshot said:
. Weapon Familiarity Certification. Applicants must complete a firearms familiarity course certified by BCI. The course must be completed before you apply for a permit. Please have your instructor complete the certification information on the application. View a list of (in-state) (out-of-state) certified instructors.
http://www.usacarry.com/utah_concealed_carry_permit_information.html

I guess my problem is that my instructor is not on their list. I have emailed BCI to see if he is on it or can be put on it. The course I took was to get an Oregon CHL. At the time I didn't know I was going to get a UT CFP... Funny how the states can be so different. Got my VA CHP with just my DD214 that didn't have any handgun qualification on it. OR requires that the DD214 have a handgun certification on it so I had to take a handgun course from a NRA certified instructor. Maybe the next state I get a concealed handgun permit/license I will have to demonstrate that I can rub my tummy and pat my head at the same time...

I did notice that Philip Van Cleave was on the list!!

markand · Dec 22, 2013

To amplify on what Grapeshot said above, Utah requires everybody who applies for a UT Concealed Firearms Permit (CFP) to attend, in person, a course approved by the BCI (Bureau of Criminal Identification, the Utah agency responsible for the processing and administration of Concealed Firearms Permits.) There is NO NRA class that satisfies this requirement, nor will a DD-214 satisfy this requirement, regardless of whether the DD-214 lists firearms training. Professional, competitive or other firearms experience is also irrelevant to Utah, as far as the CFP goes, no matter how lengthy or extensive that experience is. Everybody who wants a UT CFP has to attend, in person, a course approved by the BCI and taught by an instructor approved by the BCI.

The link Grapeshot provided should take you to a list of instructors approved by the BCI who live in Virginia. Utah instructors have to go to Utah every 3 years to attend an instructor class in order to get on the list of approved instructors. Best thing to do would be to check out some instructors close to you and make some phone calls to find somebody you like. By the way, if you find a UT certified instructor who is willing to just stamp your permit application without actually requiring that you attend the course, they are subject to having their Utah Concealed Firearms Instructor certification revoked. Not saying whether that is right or wrong, just saying that's what Utah's rules are.

Hope this helps!

markand · Dec 23, 2013

JohnM15A said:
... Funny how the states can be so different... Maybe the next state I get a concealed handgun permit/license I will have to demonstrate that I can rub my tummy and pat my head at the same time...

You hit the nail on the head (while rubbing your tummy at the same time!!). Wait until you get around to figuring out all the various reciprocity rules. Most states that recognize other states permits make no distinction as to whether the permit holder is a resident or non-resident, but some (FL, CO, MI, NH, SC, ME) only recognize resident permits for the states they recognize. But WI does NOT honor a VA resident permit, but WILL recognize a VA non-resident permit. PA is in the process of ceasing to honor non-resident permits, but hasn't completed that process. Some states (ID, IA, ND) have two tiered permit systems in place, basically a lower level that is easy to get and a higher level that requires more training, in order to attract greater reciprocity for the higher level.

Not to mention where the "...shall not be infringed..." thing fits in.

JohnM15A · Dec 23, 2013

markand said:
You hit the nail on the head (while rubbing your tummy at the same time!!). Wait until you get around to figuring out all the various reciprocity rules. Most states that recognize other states permits make no distinction as to whether the permit holder is a resident or non-resident, but some (FL, CO, MI, NH, SC, ME) only recognize resident permits for the states they recognize. But WI does NOT honor a VA resident permit, but WILL recognize a VA non-resident permit. PA is in the process of ceasing to honor non-resident permits, but hasn't completed that process. Some states (ID, IA, ND) have two tiered permit systems in place, basically a lower level that is easy to get and a higher level that requires more training, in order to attract greater reciprocity for the higher level.

Not to mention where the "...shall not be infringed..." thing fits in.

And to top this off, some states honor another states permit but does not afford the same rules as a resident permit.

JohnM15A · Dec 23, 2013

markand said:
To amplify on what Grapeshot said above, Utah requires everybody who applies for a UT Concealed Firearms Permit (CFP) to attend, in person, a course approved by the BCI (Bureau of Criminal Identification, the Utah agency responsible for the processing and administration of Concealed Firearms Permits.) There is NO NRA class that satisfies this requirement, nor will a DD-214 satisfy this requirement, regardless of whether the DD-214 lists firearms training. Professional, competitive or other firearms experience is also irrelevant to Utah, as far as the CFP goes, no matter how lengthy or extensive that experience is. Everybody who wants a UT CFP has to attend, in person, a course approved by the BCI and taught by an instructor approved by the BCI.

The link Grapeshot provided should take you to a list of instructors approved by the BCI who live in Virginia. Utah instructors have to go to Utah every 3 years to attend an instructor class in order to get on the list of approved instructors. Best thing to do would be to check out some instructors close to you and make some phone calls to find somebody you like. By the way, if you find a UT certified instructor who is willing to just stamp your permit application without actually requiring that you attend the course, they are subject to having their Utah Concealed Firearms Instructor certification revoked. Not saying whether that is right or wrong, just saying that's what Utah's rules are.

Hope this helps!

I was not looking for a UT certified instructor to just stamp my permit application, I was thinking that the instructor that gave us the class would, assuming he was/is is UT certified. We took the course less than a years ago. Also assuming that he cover the correct material to meet UT requirement. Not trying to cheat here, just tying to git'er done.

markand · Dec 23, 2013

JohnM15A said:
I was not looking for a UT certified instructor to just stamp my permit application, I was thinking that the instructor that gave us the class would, assuming he was/is is UT certified. We took the course less than a years ago. Also assuming that he cover the correct material to meet UT requirement. Not trying to cheat here, just tying to git'er done.

No problem. Wasn't implying you were trying to cheat. If your instructor was already UT certified when you took his course AND the course he taught was his approved UT course, then that might be a path and worth a phone call or email to him or her find out. Utah's rules are kind of rigid, but they are what they are.

ProShooter · Dec 23, 2013

JohnM15A said:
I was not looking for a UT certified instructor to just stamp my permit application, I was thinking that the instructor that gave us the class would, assuming he was/is is UT certified. We took the course less than a years ago. Also assuming that he cover the correct material to meet UT requirement. Not trying to cheat here, just tying to git'er done.

You can't just have an instructor added to the list. The instructor has to be previously certified by Utah and has to teach the specific Utah class.

JohnM15A · Dec 23, 2013

ProShooter said:
You can't just have an instructor added to the list. The instructor has to be previously certified by Utah and has to teach the specific Utah class.

I contacted UT to see if he was on the list but has not been updated to their web site. As it turns out, I'll have to take a UT certified course...

MKEgal · Dec 23, 2013

I have a call in to Jeff Dunn of the BCI to clarify this, but he's out of the office until Friday.
Here's the UT code covering ccp.
Discussing training, it says:

(8)
(a) General familiarity with the types of firearms to be concealed includes training in:
(i) the safe loading, unloading, storage, and carrying of the types of firearms to be concealed; and
(ii) current laws defining lawful use of a firearm by a private citizen, including lawful self-defense, use of force by a private citizen, including use of deadly force, transportation, and concealment.

(b) An applicant may satisfy the general familiarity requirement of Subsection (8)(a) by one of the following:
(i) completion of a course of instruction conducted by a national, state, or local firearms training organization approved by the bureau;
(ii) certification of general familiarity by a person who has been certified by the bureau, which may include a law enforcement officer, military or civilian firearms instructor, or hunter safety instructor; or
(iii) equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in an organized shooting competition, law enforcement, or military service.

The only course I've ever heard of which satisfies (8)(b)(i) is the standard curriculum, posted on the BCI site. It sounds like the NRA Personal Protection series would cover the required info, but it has to be approved by BCI.
(8)(b)(ii) is the usual route, the standard class.
(8)(b)(iii) would apply to many people, but only if that experience covered what's required in (8)(a), and I'm betting that most don't.

ProShooter · Dec 23, 2013

MKEgal said:
I have a call in to Jeff Dunn of the BCI to clarify this, but he's out of the office until Friday.
Here's the UT code covering ccp.
Discussing training, it says:

The only course I've ever heard of which satisfies (8)(b)(i) is the standard curriculum, posted on the BCI site. It sounds like the NRA Personal Protection series would cover the required info, but it has to be approved by BCI.
(8)(b)(ii) is the usual route, the standard class.
(8)(b)(iii) would apply to many people, but only if that experience covered what's required in (8)(a), and I'm betting that most don't.

BCI is usually closed on Friday, so I doubt Jeff will get back to you then.

NRA PP won't work. The course that Utah accepts is the one that they wrote (well, copied most of from the NRA Basic Pistol Class). Its a specific course that Utah certified instructors are trained to teach. Nothing else will do.

To the OP - I offer the Utah class each month in Ashland, Va. Been teaching it since 2008. We'd be happy to have you in class.

JohnM15A · Dec 24, 2013

Wife and I signed up for a course at Capital Defense Instruction, nearby... http://www.capitaldefenseinstruction.com/Firearms-Training-Schedule.html

ProShooter · Dec 24, 2013

JohnM15A said:
Wife and I signed up for a course at Capital Defense Instruction, nearby... http://www.capitaldefenseinstruction.com/Firearms-Training-Schedule.html

Ok...Sorry that we couldn't help you...

ETA - Wow! $125 for a 4 hour class? I've got to raise our prices, and start talking faster! LOL

JohnM15A · Dec 24, 2013

ProShooter said:
Ok...Sorry that we couldn't help you...

ETA - Wow! $125 for a 4 hour class? I've got to raise our prices, and start talking faster! LOL

...and teach where the rich people are...

ProShooter · Dec 25, 2013

JohnM15A said:
...and teach where the rich people are...

I've taught a few times in Nova and we have always charged $85.

zoom6zoom · Dec 26, 2013

One of the reasons Utah won't accept the NRA course is that it doesn't specifically cover Utah laws.

scouser · Dec 26, 2013

JohnM15A said:
Wife and I signed up for a course at Capital Defense Instruction, nearby... http://www.capitaldefenseinstruction.com/Firearms-Training-Schedule.html

from Capital Defense's website
Q. Do I have to be a resident of Utah to obtain this permit?
A. No. Any U.S. citizen of any state (including the District of Columbia) may apply for a non-resident Utah Concealed Firearm Permit after taking the required 4 hour CFP course with us.

Myself, I'd be wondering just how much attention this company pays to the details of the Utah syllabus. When did US Citizenship become a requirement for applying for a Utah permit?

If they can't get some simple stuff correct, just how good is their class and what kind of instruction are people getting in just 4 hours?

If I was in NoVa I think I'd rather wait for Proshooter's all day less expensive class.

[/my $0.02]

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