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Thread: Stand your ground only legal if you guess right? Another no-knock gone bad

  1. #1
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Stand your ground only legal if you guess right? Another no-knock gone bad

    http://www.theeagle.com/news/local/a...8f07816b4.html

    "A man accused in last week's shooting death of a Burleson County sheriff's deputy mistook the officer coming through his front door as an intruder, according to his lawyer.
    Henry Goedrich Magee, 28, was charged with capital murder after authorities said he shot Sgt. Adam Sowders as he led an eight-man team into Magee's trailer near Somerville just before 6 a.m. Thursday."


    "Sowders applied for the search warrant after consulting with the district attorney's office, according to the original affidavit, which included a request from Sowders to enter the home "without first knocking and announcing the presence and purpose of officers."
    The request was made based on information that Magee had weapons inside that, according to an investigator's source, he was not afraid to use, according to the affidavit, which stated he had an aggressive dog, as well."


    ""The danger is that if you're sitting in your home and it's pitch black outside and your door gets busted in without warning, what the hell are you supposed to do?" DeGuerin said."

    DeGuerin is Magee's attorney.

    This causes me to recall the Waco massacre. David Koresh could have been arrested any time he left the rural place he lived. Same situation here. Other news reports indicate two plants of the heathen devil weed marijuana variety and five seedlings were on the property. In Texas, possession of 2 ounces or less of marijuana is a Class B misdemeanor, punishable by up to 180 days imprisonment and a fine not to exceed $2,000. Possession of between 2 and 4 ounces of marijuana is a Class A misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment of up to 1 year and a fine not to exceed $4,000. They'de have to awfully healthy plants for two of 'em to weigh in at over 4 oz Maybe they weigh the roots and dirt they grow in.....

    DeGuerin is an experienced, high profile attorney. He represented David Koresh, Tom Delay.

    DeGuerin used a self-defense argument, and won, representing New York real estate heir Robert Durst, who confessed to killing and dismembering the body of his 71-year-old neighbor Morris Black, bagged up the body parts and tossed them in Galveston Bay. So ya, he's got the attorney I'd want.


    So what do YOU do when this

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    Dressed in black, @ 0 dark thirty forces his way into YOUR home amidst a detonated and intentionally disorientating flash bang grenade? Remember, you are stunned, scared, it's dark and you have a real to life boogie man that just kicked your door in. How responsible are we supposed to be after we are hit with a flash bang?

    I realize the "fact aren't all in yet". Chances are they never will be. Police will investigate a police shooting. We'll get what we get and be told what they withhold will be for our own good. I get that. So. No judgements, just put yourself in Magee's shoes.

    Keep in mind, this happened near a town of 1300 people. The cop grew up there. He knew the family and the guy the he sought the warrant for. A "tacticool raid" was about as necessary as a SWAT team checking occupancy compliance on a day care [Fairfax Co VA]. As far as the cop, does this meet the requirements to apply the old cliche "Do stupid things, win stupid prizes"?

    Not to turn this into a "pot is good" or "Pot is bad" thing, who'da thunk a couple of plants would suspend every right you thought you had, and resistance to a violent home invasion could cost you your live?
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
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    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

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    Regular Member BrianB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    So what do YOU do when this [cop] dressed in black, @ 0 dark thirty forces his way into YOUR home amidst a detonated and intentionally disorientating flash bang grenade? Remember, you are stunned, scared, it's dark and you have a real to life boogie man that just kicked your door in.
    If it's a "no knock, no announce" you light him and his crew up, keep your mouth shut after, and let your attorney worry about everything else.
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Any law enforcement officer that asks for a "no knock, no announce" warrant is not playing with a full deck. They are a few bricks short of a full load. They are a few fries short of a Happy Meal. They are not the brightest crayon in the box. They are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

    Get my drift?

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Any law enforcement officer that asks for a "no knock, no announce" warrant is not playing with a full deck. They are a few bricks short of a full load. They are a few fries short of a Happy Meal. They are not the brightest crayon in the box. They are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

    Get my drift?
    "The request was made based on information that Magee had weapons inside that, according to an investigator's source, he was not afraid to use, according to the affidavit,..."


    Do you have a weapon you aren't afraid to use? Are we to understand that is grounds for a no-knock raid?
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
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  5. #5
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    "The request was made based on information that Magee had weapons inside that, according to an investigator's source, he was not afraid to use, according to the affidavit,..."


    Do you have a weapon you aren't afraid to use? Are we to understand that is grounds for a no-knock raid?
    When you buy a ticket you take your chances. No matter how many times you flip a coin it is always a 50/50 chance of turning up heads or tails.

    I learned at an early age never make a bet unless the odds are heavily weighted in my favor. I also tell people never own a gun if you never intend to use it.

    Does a cop take an oath to intentionally place himself in danger for the good of society?

    Good GOD, the deputy died for a couple of pot plants. He chose to buy a loosing ticket.
    Last edited by color of law; 12-25-2013 at 12:37 AM.

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    And my question here is this: Just what illegal action or crime were they investigating to begin with as justification for ANY warrant? The mere fact that one has/owns/was seen with a weapon is NOT A CRIME generally.

    Ok, I have now read the linked story where the warrant for basically because they thought he had MJ in the home.

    Me thinks that JUST because one CAN get and use a NO KNOCK/ NO ANNOUNCE warrant does NOT mean that is the safest or most beneficial option for those involved.

    In my State of residence we have a law

    76-2-405. Force in defense of habitation.
    (1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
    (a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
    (b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
    (2) The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony.
    The only thing I don't like about this law is in the context of the use of a NO KNOCK/NO ANNOUNCE warrant and the requirement that the entry must be "unlawful" not just "reasonably believed to be unlawful".
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 12-25-2013 at 12:45 AM.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    All I can say having been on a search warrant is that when you enter you announce. Even when its a no knock after you breach the door when you come in your announcing who you are to prevent this type of incident.

    This is a very good question, what do you do if an unknown person comes in. I agree you shoot to defend your family. The key is for the police to make it clear there is no mistaking who you are. That's usually alot of yelling and verbal commands. Bad guys tend to not yell police. Also bad guys tend to not use flash bangs.

    The discrepancy is that in this article it says he heard "pounding on the door" and the court is alleging he knew it was the police.

    Think about this ... the no knock portion only applies to the breach. Once you breach your yelling police.... to avoid this.

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    According to state records, Magee has been arrested twice for driving while intoxicated and twice for possession of marijuana. Authorities have not said if the warrant was being served at Magee's home.

    http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/ma...-deputys-death ^^^


    Sounds like another idiotic night time, no knock search for some weed use.

    Not guilty. I'm just wondering why only 1 person was killed ... we'll find out more ... as it stands now, with the facts I know .. its a not guilty verdict
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 12-25-2013 at 01:12 AM.

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    the endless war on drugs continues....

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    First, he has not been convicted. If a jury believes that he reasonably feared for his life against an unlawful attack, then he can be acquitted.

    Second, according to his lawyer, he thought the cop was an intruder (an unlawful intruder, we are left to assume). For all we know, he knew the cop was a cop and shot to protect his enterprise--in which case he would be quite guilty of capital murder.

    Third, I have no problem with the idea of no-knock warrants. This case illustrates the stupidity of their overuse. Just wait until this guy leaves his house in the morning and hand him the warrant. It's not like he had a small army inside.

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    Regular Member BrianB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    All I can say having been on a search warrant is that when you enter you announce. Even when its a no knock after you breach the door when you come in your announcing who you are to prevent this type of incident.

    This is a very good question, what do you do if an unknown person comes in. I agree you shoot to defend your family. The key is for the police to make it clear there is no mistaking who you are. That's usually alot of yelling and verbal commands. Bad guys tend to not yell police. Also bad guys tend to not use flash bangs.

    The discrepancy is that in this article it says he heard "pounding on the door" and the court is alleging he knew it was the police.

    Think about this ... the no knock portion only applies to the breach. Once you breach your yelling police.... to avoid this.
    I'm shooting you even if you are yelling police. Bad guys have gotten hip to that little trick. This is just one article from my home area. If you want to arrest me, you better do it smart. You break down my door you're getting shot. Lots of times. Period.
    Last edited by BrianB; 12-25-2013 at 08:47 AM.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I have a huge problem with no knock warrants, it is a horrible destruction of liberty, castle doctrines, common law, and due process.

    Whats so hard about waiting for the guy to go somewhere and nabbing him?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    All I can say having been on a search warrant is that when you enter you announce. Even when its a no knock after you breach the door when you come in your announcing who you are to prevent this type of incident.

    This is a very good question, what do you do if an unknown person comes in. I agree you shoot to defend your family. The key is for the police to make it clear there is no mistaking who you are. That's usually alot of yelling and verbal commands. Bad guys tend to not yell police. Also bad guys tend to not use flash bangs.

    The discrepancy is that in this article it says he heard "pounding on the door" and the court is alleging he knew it was the police.

    Think about this ... the no knock portion only applies to the breach. Once you breach your yelling police.... to avoid this.

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    The problem is that bad guy's are now pretending to be police with some frequency. Also, if you're woken up in the middle of the night, it's completely possible the word "police" isn't being processed by the brain in primal mode.

    And of course, the larger issue is that no knock raids are very rarely necessary. My grandfather's brother was a sheriff deputy in Orlando, and back then, they never ever did one, to his knowledge. They always waited until the person was in public and grabbed him, which makes sense of course.
    Last edited by 77zach; 12-25-2013 at 09:14 AM.
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    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    A good book is Rise of the Warrior Cop by Radley Balko, it goes into the history of no knocks, like many other things these had to be fought for by police under the guise it would only be used for in dire circumstances, like so many other things they quickly become the norm and abused and many tend to think that was the way it always was.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I have a huge problem with no knock warrants, it is a horrible destruction of liberty, castle doctrines, common law, and due process.

    Whats so hard about waiting for the guy to go somewhere and nabbing him?
    I'd say that no-knocks would be useful if LE is concerned about lotsa BGs or if there is a genuine concern for loss of evidence or innocent life before the BG emerges. Judges should be loathe to give them out, but they do have a place. A warrant is already an infringement on Liberty, one that the Framers thought necessary (I agree) and one that has been issued by a judge based on probable cause. If the probable cause dictates (and this should be HUGE hurdle), then the additional infringement of no-knock should be included in the warrant.

    The cops should be aware that, if they break into the wrong house, cops may get lawfully killed. Maybe that should make them careful about asking for no-knocks.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I'd say that no-knocks would be useful if LE is concerned about lotsa BGs or if there is a genuine concern for loss of evidence or innocent life before the BG emerges. Judges should be loathe to give them out, but they do have a place. A warrant is already an infringement on Liberty, one that the Framers thought necessary (I agree) and one that has been issued by a judge based on probable cause. If the probable cause dictates (and this should be HUGE hurdle), then the additional infringement of no-knock should be included in the warrant.

    The cops should be aware that, if they break into the wrong house, cops may get lawfully killed. Maybe that should make them careful about asking for no-knocks.
    Lots of BG's would even be a better reason not to have one.

    The only conceivable reason would be hostage situations or someones life is in danger.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I have a huge problem with no knock warrants, it is a horrible destruction of liberty, castle doctrines, common law, and due process.

    Whats so hard about waiting for the guy to go somewhere and nabbing him?
    Guys , not just you svg a few gave said this same thing "arrrest him outside", this was a search warrant for his house. They suspected illegal guns and drugs at this residence. I'm under the impression it was NOT a body warrant. If it was an ARREST warrant then i agree with everyone here. Wait till walks out to his car and grab him.

    Listen someone's house is the LAST place you want to serve any type of warrant and this case illustrates exactly why. Its your castle. So to violently intrude upon said place is extremely dangerous not just from bad guys but from law abiding citizens.

    Again if its a search warrant then you have to enter this residence. Bit then the issue is if you knock wait the few seconds yell police knock then breach your giving time for him to grab rifle and or destroy evidence.

    I mean this is a good example of bad things. Their reasoning for the no knock was they thought it had guns and it was violent. Well he had guns and he killed someone. So how far off were they? IF he was legitimately unaware that multiple dudes coming in with rifles vests and flash bangs was not police then ok. But for some reason this smells like he shot someone and is trying to get off. I could be wrong I'll wait for more info

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Lots of BG's would even be a better reason not to have one.

    The only conceivable reason would be hostage situations or someones life is in danger.
    If you knock and announce when there are lotsa BGs inside, you give them time to prepare for battle.

    That is the only reason you can conceive of. But the fact that you could conceive of one means that there is a place for no-knocks. They just need to be incredibly rare. Judges need to require a high hurdle for justification and for proof of that claimed justification.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Guys , not just you svg a few gave said this same thing "arrrest him outside", this was a search warrant for his house. They suspected illegal guns and drugs at this residence. I'm under the impression it was NOT a body warrant. If it was an ARREST warrant then i agree with everyone here. Wait till walks out to his car and grab him.

    Listen someone's house is the LAST place you want to serve any type of warrant and this case illustrates exactly why. Its your castle. So to violently intrude upon said place is extremely dangerous not just from bad guys but from law abiding citizens.

    Again if its a search warrant then you have to enter this residence. Bit then the issue is if you knock wait the few seconds yell police knock then breach your giving time for him to grab rifle and or destroy evidence.

    I mean this is a good example of bad things. Their reasoning for the no knock was they thought it had guns and it was violent. Well he had guns and he killed someone. So how far off were they? IF he was legitimately unaware that multiple dudes coming in with rifles vests and flash bangs was not police then ok. But for some reason this smells like he shot someone and is trying to get off. I could be wrong I'll wait for more info

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    I am not saying arrest him outside. I don't think anyone is.

    We are saying, wait for him to go outside, serve the warrant, and go in. If you wait for him to leave the building, you obviate the need for a no-knock.

    Barring extraordinary circumstances, I'd think that cops would think that no-knocks are dangerous and should be avoided!


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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I am not saying arrest him outside. I don't think anyone is.

    We are saying, wait for him to go outside, serve the warrant, and go in. If you wait for him to leave the building, you obviate the need for a no-knock.

    Barring extraordinary circumstances, I'd think that cops would think that no-knocks are dangerous and should be avoided!


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    +1 Many cops get off on the adrenaline rush, there has been statements like "its better than sex".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    http://www.theeagle.com/news/local/a...8f07816b4.html
    In an affidavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting, Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
    I think this cop got an A in creative writing class.

    Also, notice the angle of the picture of deputy Adam Sowders. That angle is taken to convey dominance.

    Why has not the original warrant been released for public scrutiny?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If you knock and announce when there are lotsa BGs inside, you give them time to prepare for battle.

    That is the only reason you can conceive of. But the fact that you could conceive of one means that there is a place for no-knocks. They just need to be incredibly rare. Judges need to require a high hurdle for justification and for proof of that claimed justification.


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    So? I don't care if it gives them time for battle, if it isn't an exigent circumstance (not the fake they are going to flush the evidence, I mean human life in danger) then they shouldn't be done at all.

    Let's not sacrifice rights for safety.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Guys , not just you svg a few gave said this same thing "arrrest him outside", this was a search warrant for his house. They suspected illegal guns and drugs at this residence. I'm under the impression it was NOT a body warrant. If it was an ARREST warrant then i agree with everyone here. Wait till walks out to his car and grab him.

    Listen someone's house is the LAST place you want to serve any type of warrant and this case illustrates exactly why. Its your castle. So to violently intrude upon said place is extremely dangerous not just from bad guys but from law abiding citizens.

    Again if its a search warrant then you have to enter this residence. Bit then the issue is if you knock wait the few seconds yell police knock then breach your giving time for him to grab rifle and or destroy evidence.

    I mean this is a good example of bad things. Their reasoning for the no knock was they thought it had guns and it was violent. Well he had guns and he killed someone. So how far off were they? IF he was legitimately unaware that multiple dudes coming in with rifles vests and flash bangs was not police then ok. But for some reason this smells like he shot someone and is trying to get off. I could be wrong I'll wait for more info
    If it's an active meth lab that might explode and injure or kill others, then that's an exigency that might warrant the intrusion - but the bomb squad and the fire department should be there too if it's going to smell legit. A few pot plants endanger nobody and aren't worth officers risking their lives for. That's just stupid.

    If getting these 3 evil plants off the street was so damn important they should have waited until nobody was home, gain entry, confiscate the plants, and so on.

    This country does some really idiotic things in pursuit of this "drug war".
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    I don't care if you don't care. I care. And the cops care. I am sure the judges care. The families of the cops care.

    Your argument is so beyond the pale as to warrant cutting off this subdiscussion. Moving on.


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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I don't care if you don't care. I care. And the cops care. I am sure the judges care. The families of the cops care.

    Your argument is so beyond the pale as to warrant cutting off this subdiscussion. Moving on.


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    Then you don't go in and nobody gets harmed, or if you don't like the dangers of being a cop within a constitutionally restricted limits you don't be a cop.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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